Why ‘us vs them’?

[Trailblazer]

Then you dont know @TransmutingSoul very well, he has said in this very thread that unity can only come about through obedience to Baha'i law.

Or did you mean to say Tony is the exception to the rule?

I don't know what most Baha'is think, but let's just say we are not all like Tony. I know I do not believe that unity can only come about through obedience to Baha'i law. Baha'i laws are only for Baha'is and we need to be unified with non-Baha'is in order to establish unity in the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then you dont know @TransmutingSoul very well, he has said in this very thread that unity can only come about through obedience to Baha'i law.

This is from the Baha'i reference library;

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded"

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 286-287

That's how I see it. They have all the answers. They have the institutions and the administrative order. They are set to take over and rule the world once this "old" world order crumbles.

When I was taught about the Baha'i Faith in the 70's, it wasn't a distant thing. The "lesser peace" was expected to happen very soon. Then in the 80's the Baha'is put out their "peace statement". It laid out for the world what needed to be done.

The Baha'i would define those rights. I would expect an oppressive, theocratic state.

But going beyond the "lesser peace", what if the Baha'is ever got the majority? "God's laws" would become the laws of the land. Will those in power put up with people that continually disobey God's laws?

Here's Baha'u'llah, or I guess it is God's, recommendation on the punishment for a thief...

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries.​

​

That sounds pretty good to me. Get rid of them. Send them out of the cities and countries of God. Maybe to a big island somewhere.

But why will there be thieves in this new peaceful and united world? If there's thieves, then what about crooked businesspeople? How about religious leaders and those running and enforcing God's new world order? Put a mark on them too and ship them out?

I wonder how long before that place where all the bad people get shipped to has a larger population than the "cities" of God? And, since the world has disarmed, what if those bad people come back?

I doubt if there'd be any problems... I'm sure the Baha'is have thought it all through and know what they are doing. Or... do like the Born-again Christians and wait for Jesus to come down and kill all the evil people.

 

[Spice]

That's how I see it. They have all the answers. They have the institutions and the administrative order. They are set to take over and rule the world once this "old" world order crumbles.

When I was taught about the Baha'i Faith in the 70's, it wasn't a distant thing. The "lesser peace" was expected to happen very soon. Then in the 80's the Baha'is put out their "peace statement". It laid out for the world what needed to be done.

But going beyond the "lesser peace", what if the Baha'is ever got the majority? "God's laws" would become the laws of the land. Will those in power put up with people that continually disobey God's laws?

Here's Baha'u'llah, or I guess it is God's, recommendation on the punishment for a thief...

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries.​

​

That sounds pretty good to me. Get rid of them. Send them out of the cities and countries of God. Maybe to a big island somewhere.

But why will there be thieves in this new peaceful and united world? If there's thieves, then what about crooked businesspeople? How about religious leaders and those running and enforcing God's new world order? Put a mark on them too and ship them out?

I wonder how long before that place where all the bad people get shipped to has a larger population than the "cities" of God? And, since the world has disarmed, what if those bad people come back?

I doubt if there'd be any problems... I'm sure the Baha'is have thought it all through and know what they are doing. Or... do like the Born-again Christians and wait for Jesus to come down and kill all the evil people.

This scenario sounds so much like the plot line of a sci-fi I'm reading set in 2032 and forward, written in 1998 by Octavia Butler entitled The Parable of the Talents. It's the sequel to her The Parable of the Sower written in 1993 and storyline set in 2024 and forward.

During these years of publication release, I was struggling to keep my head above water and paid little attention to the broader world (other than the OJ case, LOL) but I wonder if the author's subject and story timeline were coincidence, or was there something "rising" that caught her attention?

 

[Vinayaka]

That's how I see it. They have all the answers. They have the institutions and the administrative order. They are set to take over and rule the world once this "old" world order crumbles.

When I was taught about the Baha'i Faith in the 70's, it wasn't a distant thing. The "lesser peace" was expected to happen very soon. Then in the 80's the Baha'is put out their "peace statement". It laid out for the world what needed to be done.

But going beyond the "lesser peace", what if the Baha'is ever got the majority? "God's laws" would become the laws of the land. Will those in power put up with people that continually disobey God's laws?

Here's Baha'u'llah, or I guess it is God's, recommendation on the punishment for a thief...

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries.​

​

That sounds pretty good to me. Get rid of them. Send them out of the cities and countries of God. Maybe to a big island somewhere.

But why will there be thieves in this new peaceful and united world? If there's thieves, then what about crooked businesspeople? How about religious leaders and those running and enforcing God's new world order? Put a mark on them too and ship them out?

I wonder how long before that place where all the bad people get shipped to has a larger population than the "cities" of God? And, since the world has disarmed, what if those bad people come back?

I doubt if there'd be any problems... I'm sure the Baha'is have thought it all through and know what they are doing. Or... do like the Born-again Christians and wait for Jesus to come down and kill all the evil people.

I had a thief in my classroom once upon a time. This 9 year old was sneaking other kids' snacks from their lockers, and she was oh so sneaky, and always in denial about it. The principal would investigate, sometimes find her guilty, phone home, assign punishment, etc. Other kids suspected her of lots of other stuff. Guess what?

She was hungry, and neglected by her parents. I started bringing her a little snack every day, and the stealing stopped. I don't think little ________ would have looked good with a brand on her forehead.

 

[danieldemol]

I had a thief in my classroom once upon a time. This 9 year old was sneaking other kids' snacks from their lockers, and she was oh so sneaky, and always in denial about it. The principal would investigate, sometimes find her guilty, phone home, assign punishment, etc. Other kids suspected her of lots of other stuff. Guess what?

She was hungry, and neglected by her parents. I started bringing her a little snack every day, and the stealing stopped. I don't think little ________ would have looked good with a brand on her forehead.

You can see how it would be a self feeding problem even in adults, who would want to employ a person permanently marked as a thief? Which means even if any underlying causes of thievery are addressed and the thief reformed into a non thief they would soon find themselves unemployed and needing to steal to survive in my view.

That's the trouble with giving these half baked bandaid solutions such as branding instead of seeking to understand and address the underlying causes in my view.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

No need for Us vs. Them. Unfortunately, some people just can't resist picking fights with everyone and everything out of the blue and has the sheer nerve to whine that it's not fair when people get tired of their BS and hit back.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I had a thief in my classroom once upon a time. This 9 year old was sneaking other kids' snacks from their lockers, and she was oh so sneaky, and always in denial about it. The principal would investigate, sometimes find her guilty, phone home, assign punishment, etc. Other kids suspected her of lots of other stuff. Guess what?

She was hungry, and neglected by her parents. I started bringing her a little snack every day, and the stealing stopped. I don't think little ________ would have looked good with a brand on her forehead.

That's really sweet and thoughtful of you.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I had a thief in my classroom once upon a time. This 9 year old was sneaking other kids' snacks from their lockers, and she was oh so sneaky, and always in denial about it. The principal would investigate, sometimes find her guilty, phone home, assign punishment, etc. Other kids suspected her of lots of other stuff. Guess what?

She was hungry, and neglected by her parents. I started bringing her a little snack every day, and the stealing stopped. I don't think little ________ would have looked good with a brand on her forehead.

That's really sweet and thoughtful of you.

 

[Vinayaka]

You can see how it would be a self feeding problem even in adults, who would want to employ a person permanently marked as a thief? Which means even if any underlying causes of thievery are addressed and the thief reformed into a non thief they would soon find themselves unemployed and needing to steal to survive in my view.

That's the trouble with giving these half baked bandaid solutions such as branding instead of seeking to understand and address the underlying causes in my view.

Indeed. One has to always look at underlying causes. People with chronic halitosis often grew up in abject poverty. Always dig a little deeper. Another poor child I taught had Tourette's, although minor. Still he was the brunt of much scolding of 'Stop making those funny faces!" from previous teachers. It's sad that we don't look deeper.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's really sweet and thoughtful of you.

I figured it out later than I should have, caught up in the 'catch her' game. The catalyst was meeting her mother at parent teacher interviews. After that it was almost too obvious.

 

[CG Didymus]

I had a thief in my classroom once upon a time. This 9 year old was sneaking other kids' snacks from their lockers, and she was oh so sneaky, and always in denial about it. The principal would investigate, sometimes find her guilty, phone home, assign punishment, etc. Other kids suspected her of lots of other stuff. Guess what?

She was hungry, and neglected by her parents. I started bringing her a little snack every day, and the stealing stopped. I don't think little ________ would have looked good with a brand on her forehead.

Like that Baha'i teaching really came from God? Maybe that was being lenient compared to cutting a thief's hand off. It's nice to know that the Abrahamic God is easing up on his punishments.

 

[CG Didymus]

You can see how it would be a self feeding problem even in adults, who would want to employ a person permanently marked as a thief? Which means even if any underlying causes of thievery are addressed and the thief reformed into a non thief they would soon find themselves unemployed and needing to steal to survive in my view.

That's the trouble with giving these half baked bandaid solutions such as branding instead of seeking to understand and address the underlying causes in my view.

But it said after the third offense to mark the thief's forehead and kick the thief out of the city. What are criminals going to do? Maybe start "Barter Town"?

But... it did come from God. And God, they tell me, knows best. Or... maybe it didn't come from God. And maybe Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri just thought God was telling him things?

Like most all religions, there's a lot of good stuff in the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. But is it perfect? Like in coming from an all-knowing, all-loving God?

 

[shunyadragon]

Proselytizing is not constructive dialogue, and the belief that the world would be better if everyone shared your religion is not a "solution for humanity."

Sharing religious beliefs is not necessarily proselytizing,and can be constructive dialogue. The hostility apparent between religious belief is a serious problem.

 

[shunyadragon]

Like that Baha'i teaching really came from God? Maybe that was being lenient compared to cutting a thief's hand off. It's nice to know that the Abrahamic God is easing up on his punishments.

Ancient cruel punishment may not be mandated by God but reflect the culture and times, For that matter from the objective perspective all religious beliefs may be false.

 

[Niatero]

Ancient cruel punishment may not be mandated by God but reflect the culture and times, For that matter from the objective perspective all religious beliefs may be false.

Earlier you said that your basic foundation view is a "Universalist Philosophy" with the words capitalized. Is that the name of a school of thought that includes the basics that you listed? Or is it just your name for your own list of basics?

 

[shunyadragon]

Earlier you said that your basic foundation view is a "Universalist Philosophy" with the words capitalized. Is that the name of a school of thought that includes the basics that you listed? Or is it just your name for your own list of basics?

At present it is my evolving philosophy concerning how to deal with the universal nature of our existence. It began when I concluded that science was the only reliable evolving body of knowledge of our physical existence, but this is where scientific knowledge ends. Though the science of the future may venture further, The development and problems with the subjective knowledge of the journey in the evolving universal philosophy.

I believe we are in a crisis of tribal identities and ancient beliefs are detached from the present. It has been problematic for me that anyone religion answers the subjective adequately. I reached the following other conclusions.

(1) If a 'Source some call Gods exists it is universal 'Source' beyond all religions and belief systems.
(2) My premise for Hope in a very discouraging hostile divided world. Humanity is spiritually evolving, I hope, beyond tribalism. Progressive Revelation offers some hope, but even the Baha'i Faith and Unitarians have to adapt to rapidly changing world.
(3) I have to view all religions within the context of the time and culture they originated. I read them for the wisdom they offer, but again they are part of a dynamic spiritual evolving nature of humanity.
(4) I view the potential of limited human Will to make choices to be possibly progressive and the source of evolving change over time. The advances in science may in the future help unlock our limitations of freedom of choice. We need the capacity to envision a more universal evolving future, We do not have that in our cultures and religions are of the present, Most see the future in terms of the visions of our cultural past, Fear is driving force that increases the limits on our potential freedom of choice.
"Humans have will, but it is not necessarily free"

More to follow . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

Earlier you said that your basic foundation view is a "Universalist Philosophy" with the words capitalized. Is that the name of a school of thought that includes the basics that you listed? Or is it just your name for your own list of basics?

More food for thought on fear and the limits of our limited potential freedom of choices.

Worthy of note is theme of many movies and books have a negative vision of the future. They are often apocalyptic, and dark with a pessimistic future of humanity.

Some traditional religions often have the same negative view. The triumphant of what they call good involves destruction of our present world and cleanse it from the supposed evil.

"We have met the enemy and they are us." - Pogo

Concerning our potential limited freedom of choice a paraphrase of a saying comes to mind from a Vedic tradition?

"To say yes and no is to be imobile on two feet."

 

[Trailblazer]

Another insult. 'They that are of a lower grade" means all the non-Baha'i.

I would be careful not to jump the gun if I were you because people who do that often end up with egg all over their face.
'They that are of a lower grade' is not referring to non-Baha'is. It refers to Baha'is who are of a lower grade.
You would understand that if you read the full passage which begins with 'The people of Bahá,'

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

I see that several poster jumped to the same conclusion:

@It Aint Necessarily So
@CG Didymus
@Secret Chief
@hififish

It seems like @Niatero only considered the post Informative so I hope he reads this and realizes that lower grade does not refer to non-Baha'is.

The point of the passage is that ones capacity, character, accomplishments and merits all play into where we end up in the afterlife, which means that more than belief in Baha'u'llah is required of Baha'is.

Baha'is don't have the 'guarantee' that Christians have, just believe that Jesus died for you and that is your ticket to heaven.
Everyone else goes to hell.

In the Baha'i Faith nobody knows their own end.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Baha'i would define those rights. I would expect an oppressive, theocratic state.

Nope. I myself asked this question to the Universal House of Justice because I was concerned about this:


Q. Will all people become Bahá’ís in the future?

A. There is no reference in the writings stating that every single person will become Bahá’í, but at least half of them will. Rúḥíyyih Khánum used to say that Shoghi Effendi was asked this question quite often by pilgrims. He would answer by saying that, in this Dispensation, the totality of the peoples of the world will not become Bahá’ís, but the majority will.
‘Alí Nakhjavani, "Shoghi Effendi - The Range and Power of His Pen"

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53) With loving Bahá’í greetings, Department of the Secretariat

I hope you don't take a cynical view of this. I take this to mean that each country has different circumstances and cultures, so therefore there is no cookie-cutter way for the way the government will change. Whatever Shoghi Effendi says is binding on any Baha'is in the future.

 

[Niatero]

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

It seems like @Niatero only considered the post Informative so I hope he reads this and realizes that lower grade does not refer to non-Baha'is.

In my reading the whole paragraph is only about the people of Baha, whatever that means. I don't think that anything in it is about non Baha'is.