Why are Indians not more outspoken more about racism in India?

[Kirran]

Final point regarding distance between Indian immigrants and African Americans is their very divergent trajectory in the US society. Indian immigrants have quickly established themselves as the richest of all immigrant groups in US . Racial discrimination has not hindered their rise in society. Their avg median income is $100,000. While the median income of all US is $53,000 and that of black Americans $39,000. Indian immigrants have had it extremely good, despite their skin color and hence many have difficulty in understanding and empathizing with the very genuine racial grievances of the colored Americans.

Similarly, here in the UK people of Indian ancestry are generally integrating into the middle class, often in suburban areas etc, while people of African and Afro-Caribbean ancestry are integrating into the urban working class. Hindu support for the Conservative Party is strong in the UK too.

Indians are not being racist towards you inspite of being darker than you .. they are leaning towards the mainstream .. and you are mistaking that as racism.

While I acknowledge these views are not your own, I would like to point out that this is still racism, because it's generalising an entire group of people by the same negative stereotypes. That is racism. It's not just 'I don't like people who reject the mainstream' it's 'I don't like blacks because they're lazy and troublesome and reject the mainstream'.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

While I acknowledge these views are not your own, I would like to point out that this is still racism, because it's generalising an entire group of people by the same negative stereotypes. That is racism. It's not just 'I don't like people who reject the mainstream' it's 'I don't like blacks because they're lazy and troublesome and reject the mainstream'.

Don't blacks in mainstream reject popular black culture? They do.

We do not have a control group. Do Indians who own 7-11 behave badly towards blacks with neat executive haircut wearing a smart suit? We do not know.

I completely reject the premise that I have to like you no matter what your culture is. If I do not like your culture I have the right to reject your company.

We Indians are not known for being Utopians. If that is a fault .. then yes I accept that we are at fault.

namaste

A_B

 

[Epic Beard Man]

@Epic Beard Man @Kirran

This very recent news analysis would be of interest. Rest assured caste discrimination is vigorously discussed in India constantly.

Dalit Anger: Beyond 'Diluted' Law?

Thanks for the video but forgive me if I had to cut it short as I do not speak Hindi or whatever dialect they are speaking. A simple paraphrase of the issue plus a link with a brief synopsis would've sufficed.

 

[Kirran]

Don't blacks in mainstream reject popular black culture? They do.

I completely reject the premise that I have to like you no matter what your culture is. If I do not like your culture I have the right to reject your company.

We Indians are not known for being Utopians. If that is a fault .. then yes I accept that we are at fault.

namaste

A_B

Yeah OK - but it's still racist to negatively stereotype black people.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well it's history which produces the current situation. That's where these negative stereotypes about black people which enough Indians subscribe to to make life hard for many Africans living in India come from.

Then what solutions would you propose to curb this mentality?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes, I've seen this before. Not a huge story compared to attempted genocides. Remember Rwanda? That was African against African. Two same race communities absolutely despising each other. But if you want to focus on it, go ahead.

Here in Canada we have surcharges in education for foreign students, and temporary foreign workers take a beating in many regards, like labour rights. It matters not where they come from. Does that mean Canada is racist?

Ah here we go back deflection of "black on black." The thing here is, we are not talking about that, we are talking about the current racism going on in India. The question is why does it happen. Why is it bad for me to travel to certain parts of India? Why can I not marry an Indian woman there? What are the solutions to create a paradigm shift to a better society? Funny how people hate to look in the mirror of their own ugliness. I don't know if you are of Indian descent but your comment is reminiscent of the many comments I get when black students talk about personal experiences of racism to whites. Instead of engaging our experiences the other deflects to crimes in the inner city....Typical.

 

[Kirran]

Then what solutions would you propose to curb this mentality?

Hmm, I suppose encourage more visibility, in this case make it easier for Indians to see Africans being just people. More Africans on TV, more visibility for Africans in society, etc.

It takes generations to sort this stuff out in the end. Over there in the USA, and here in the UK, we've had a lot more discourse and so on about it for longer, but we're nothing like out of the woods yet. Hence the validity of BLM and other groups encouraging discourse on it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The problem is that people in US has made racism a problem of skin color. It isn't, it never was. Any differences whatsoever that identifies you as a separate individual can trigger racist aggression against you.

Again with the deflection. Was it not you who correct someone else to not divert from the topic? Shall I now give you the same caution? If you wish to discuss about the inner sanctum of "black racism" I'll be more than happy to engage you in that thread. I'm more than knowledgeable about the ignorance that exists within my community.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Final point regarding distance between Indian immigrants and African Americans is their very divergent trajectory in the US society. Indian immigrants have quickly established themselves as the richest of all immigrant groups in US . Racial discrimination has not hindered their rise in society. Their avg median income is $100,000. While the median income of all US is $53,000 and that of black Americans $39,000. Indian immigrants have had it extremely good, despite their skin color and hence many have difficulty in understanding and empathizing with the very genuine racial grievances of the colored Americans.

What does this have to do with the thread or the post by The Hindu.....

With respect to the latter let me school you on African diaspora. The unfortunate residual effects of slavery and Jim Crow's influence on systemic racism is that it has affected African-Americans in the sense that because of lost opportunities lack of resources, unfair advances in jobs placement in "ghettos" gentrification etcetera has destabilized the African-American community for decades. When African-Americans create successful businesses like Black Wallstreet and others like it, it was torn down due to riots. Unfortunately the black dollar which is the most powerful currency in the United States is not spent in the black community because it only lasts a few hours in the community then it leaves. When it comes to Asian businesses it circulates in the community for a week before it leaves the community. Due to failed education systems in the inner city and a lack of resources like books, good teachers etc many children suffer academically and many are not equipped with the intellectual tools to succeed hence many blacks not striving for high paying jobs in the engineering field or science.

When I grew up in Compton, Los Angeles unified School District was struggling to keep funds and equip schools with books. I barely had a book in the class and with a classroom full of 12 students we might only have 4 or 5 books. Along with fire and earthquake drills we had drive by drills during the 90's. I did not have a good foundation in math until my first year in college. I did not learn how to type on a computer until I got into the seventh grade. I say all this to give you a perspective and a taste what inner city kids like me had to go through. As an adult who chooses a profession I do so unconsciously because it relates to my surroundings and perhaps how I grew up. Because I did not have a solid foundation in the math and sciences therefore professions in engineering is not attractive to me or computer sciences. Although I am savvy, I do not have a passion for technology as my Asian counterparts do.

But the main reason why immigrant communities like Italians, Mexicans/Salvadorians/Cubans Indians Arabsetc have successful businesses is because their community has a more tight knit quality. In addition, many of these immigrant communities capitalize on "black products" and set up shop in black communities because unfortunately and again due to the system of racism, blacks mistrust each other when it comes to buying products from each other. This psychopathology was instilled by the system of racism. Unfortunately many African-Americans communities in large swaths have lost the sense of community whereas immigrants have not. Black community support has thus become selective and limited to incidents (such as blacks coming together on police brutality). Indians, Chinese, Japanese, and any other immigrant groups have never in the United States have encountered a system where their community has been broken down from the macro and micro levels like blacks in the United States.

This is not to say we have it worse that is to explain why blacks are not as successful as our immigrant counterparts. The black community is fragmented and I think if we had a resurgence of the community bond as my elders before me I think we would probably be the greatest economic force in the United States. If you look at the movie black panther and look at the economic influences the black dollar from the United States to Africa and parts of the world. The black dollar is powerful and undeniable, but unfortunately we are too fragmented with divergent ideas and priorities to come together.

 

[Vinayaka]

Because it perplexes me that people who are classed as minority in the states, suffer from similar racial stereotypes, exhibit the same racial aggression as those that impart the same racism on them? I can ask about the same colorism that exists in the African-American community but it has always perplexed me as a kid and even as an adult why such occurs. I've also an Indian co-worker with dual citizenship and I've asked why. Apparently my friend "A" states that Africans and African-Americans are perceived poorly in his country, I assumed due to colonialism. But this perception continues to persist. As per the links I've supplied African students are also experiencing some unfortunate incidents of racism in India so it does matter.

Racism (also sexism, ageism, homophobia, classism, and more) has always perplexed me as well. I think it perplexes most sensible people. But as Curious George said above, to make sweeping generalisations to say all people of a certain race are racist to another race is just folly.

 

[Revoltingest]

Watching BBC news, I get a strong impression that India is very
much concerned with fighting bigotry...problems worse than racism.
They've good reason to prioritize as they do.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Racism is deplorable but sad fact is it still exists in much of the world including India.

Since you asked for an explanation I am providing you with one. Kindly do not think that it is my way of thinking or that I condone it in anyway whatsoever. If I go over to US ever .. I will be more than happy to have a beer with you and shoot pool.

Your perplexity at how people as dark skinned as you can exhibit same racism as whites is matched by their perplexity at how people (that is African Americans) born amidst so much wealth and opportunity are the poorest (average income $38,555 per annum poorest income group in USA) while Indians who arrive there stone poor buy a house and send children of to college quite easily (average income $115,200 per annum single wealthiest income group in USA).

List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia

The general idea most Indians in US have of blacks is that they are lazy, listen to rap music, consume drugs and are trouble makers.

It is a stereotype that has been prolonged due to black music videos and media

This is US ambassador to United Nations, Nimrata Randhawa from Amritsar Punjab whom you know as Nikki Haley.

US Indians are justifiably proud of her and other successful Indians ..

While Indians lean into US mainstream, African American blacks give themselves strange names like JaMarcus and Da'Shwan (why the apostrophe?) and lean away from US mainstream

Tell me after they watch this video what idea an average Indian American should have about black culture in USA? Answer me truthfully .. considering that for most Indians (here and abroad) getting an A in math and attending a good university is the only goal worth having.

Indians are not being racist towards you inspite of being darker than you .. they are leaning towards the mainstream .. and you are mistaking that as racism.

Since there are lot of Indians who are CEOs of massive companies (Google, Microsoft, PepsiCo, Adobe etc) and who work at highest level in every well known company, bank and universities .. Indians quite rightfully feel that they have made it into US mainstream in 21st century after working their butt off for 50 years. Why would they want to mingle with people who have cornrow hairstyles or have a wife whose sister is called Shabooboo?

(You asked for the explanation so I gave it .. it pained me no end to write it)

About African blacks in India .. it is shameful that people visiting India have been at the receiving end of racism. But I believe it happens only in some parts of India where people are strange in some ways (no other way to put it). Any black is most welcome to Bengal, the most liberal state in India. Several black stay in my locality (students who also play football). No one ever disturbs them.

You are mistaken that it happens only to blacks in India .. it happens to everybody. People from the North Eastern states are persecuted too since they look like the Chinese. We are persecuted too when we drink whiskey at a pub accompanied by a woman wearing sleeveless top. We have our fair share of mentally retarded (living in the Indian equivalent of US Bible Belt)


namaste

A_B

I appreciate your honesty and I cannot get really mad at that. Your post is where we get to the crux of the issue at hand when it comes to the idea of the black man which is what I was trying to explain earlier to @sayak83 and @Vinayaka. When it comes to mainstream media portrayals, the media presents the African-American as this thug gun toting, gang banging, lazy person who sits on the corner begs for change or sells drugs. With so many intelligent people in India in the sciences and math I'm surprised that many succumb to face value and not investigative thinking. Surely, 44 million black Americans in the United States are not like what they see in the media, but many do as you've stated believe. This is why I said whites regardless of the prejudice they face do not have the same global presentation that blacks have. In some cultures whites are seen as successful, intelligent, people not to mention the world has been influenced by Eurocentric style of beauty. This is why I made the comment that being white is appeared to be more "palatable" than being black or at least the perception.

With respect to the racist aspect you must understand what African-Americans have went through throughout the centuries. African-Americans have to try twice as hard as anyone else to overcome challenges as everyone else. You see, the reason why immigrant communities succeed is because of us! It is because of the civil rights movement many immigrants reap the rewards of the sacrifices black pioneers have made. Let us look at it as a race. In the history of the United States you have whites with a 40 second head start, the Native America is not even in the race and the black man and woman just began sprinting. When the civil rights movement began this propelled blacks ten seconds. With progressive laws on the books and rights restored this propelled blacks to be almost right behind whites. Here comes the immigrant in the race and the black man/woman slingshots the immigrant ahead of them.

As you can see, despite some of the failures and the negative media portrayals of black Americans, without the progressive black Americans fighting for civil rights, Indians would not be successful in this country. So I think in part Indians like any other migrant community owe that to the pioneering black Americans. I think Indians forget that.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Racism (also sexism, ageism, homophobia, classism, and more) has always perplexed me as well. I think it perplexes most sensible people. But as Curious George said above, to make sweeping generalisations to say all people of a certain race are racist to another race is just folly.

I never made a sweeping generalization. The title speaks for itself. I said why aren't Indians more outspoken about racism, the "more" denotes that there is an acknowledgement.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Watching BBC news, I get a strong impression that India is very
much concerned with fighting bigotry...problems worse than racism.
They've good reason to prioritize as they do.

Right because African students being attacked aren't important...gotcha

 

[Revoltingest]

Right because African students being attacked aren't important...gotcha

You misunderstand what I posted.
They have bigger fish to fry.
And those will get the lion's share of attention.
Injustices on a smaller scale are still wrong.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You misunderstand what I posted.
They have bigger fish to fry.
And those will get the lion's share of attention.
Injustices on a smaller scale are still wrong.

I did not misunderstand what you said I know exactly what you mean. You're placing value on issues that you think are important. An African student getting killed or mobbed on is of less value (but valuable nonetheless) than other issues going on. In other words it is not AS important...No, I got you.

 

[Cateau]

The caste system is a problem but racism is as well....

Sure, I've seen some (and I say some as in one person) speak about the caste system but never really come out and speak about it en masse. To the credit of some grass roots movements there have been some that speak about the nature of the caste system as a colonial effort that has infected India. For the many faiths that exist there who believe in love and respect for all, people are sure slow to foot on getting rid of racism and the caste system. I'm more so disturbed that a people who has brown skin like me can refer to others who are liked brown skin in a pejorative manner. Mahatma Ghandi for example a revered leader, thought bad about south Africans:

"According to the book, Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness,” and he campaigned relentlessly to prove to the British rulers that the Indian community in South Africa was superior to native black Africans."

What did Mahatma Gandhi think of black people?

More about Ghandi:

"In 1904, he wrote to a health officer in Johannesburg that the council "must withdraw Kaffirs" from an unsanitary slum called the "Coolie Location" where a large number of Africans lived alongside Indians. "About the mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly."

Interesting as a Hindu patriarch he believed this way...I'm curious what other Hindus think about this considering he is a leader.

We will nvr get rid of racism b/c we are raised into it just like religion (or a cult, to be precise and not offend) and you stay in it b/c you were highly indotrinated or b/c it now becomes a part of you like being in a movement (or terrorist group, to be precise and not offend.) Typically the older generation like the grand parents and our parents pass us the torch (So to speak) on racial profiling and racism.

But I mean the cops do it, it's even in their training, and sometimes you gotta give em props for classifying a group so well .....like yuuuuup, I know a loooooot of ppl of my heritage/race/culture that do just that/dress like that/ act like that and you will mainly find them at that spot lol. Although it is 100 percent wrong at least it sometimes helps (although the number of innocent prisoners is alarming.) I mean we don't tell our children out of making a hate speech but typically parents will use discrimination/prejudice/racial profiling/racism to warn their children about potential predators/thugs/ ECT.

I know we've all heard something growing up coming from our family and friends about other nationalities. And though the intention may not be bad, the outcome is b/c the child grows up to spot certain ppl and judge them and this may push them to become racists. The media may of course cause a child to develop racism, even an adult like not being able to trust anyone the country is at war with, ECT. And yes it is typical for us all to have this type of bias ingrained in us, not just with race, color and gender but also we look at someone and believe to be better b/c our circumstances are better than theirs.

We forget that we were all created equal. But until the laws catch up to the times we can't expect much to change. If ppl providing a service are allowed to refuse a person b/c they are against their lifestyle choices, attire, religion, ECT then they should not be allowed to work, simple as that but through the right to refuse service to anyone racism/discrimination based on moral standards or religious views it is allowed and that is just not fair. But heck I guess it' just what they say "life is not fair."

But point is we all succumb to prejudice/racism it's just typical to expiriance it and Nobel ppl are not immune to it, just like MLK was not immune ta da pretty ladies lol but he was a damn good preacher and activist so his influence is nvr gonna stop regardless of disappointing decisions, he was a better man than his sins and a good character will always speak louder than mistakes.

 

[Kirran]

Obligatory mention.

 

[Vinayaka]

I never made a sweeping generalization. The title speaks for itself. I said why aren't Indians more outspoken about racism, the "more" denotes that there is an acknowledgement.

Of course it's a sweeping generalisation. If you would have put 'some Indians' instead of 'Indians' it wouldn't be. There are a billion Indians. Not all aren't more outspoken about racism. Many are very outspoken.

Generalising is clearly a pattern of racism, and you clearly have a grudge on your shoulder against Indians. That is the main problem here.

 

[Amani_Bhava]

When it comes to mainstream media portrayals, the media presents the African-American as this thug gun toting, gang banging, lazy person who sits on the corner begs for change or sells drugs. With so many intelligent people in India in the sciences and math I'm surprised that many succumb to face value and not investigative thinking. Surely, 44 million black Americans in the United States are not like what they see in the media, but many do as you've stated believe. .

Then first stop black Americans from uploading strange YT videos like the one I shared. Later you can persuade the media to stop stereotyping blacks.

An astonishing 2.2 million of those 44 million blacks are in jail. How do you explain that statistics?

With respect to the racist aspect you must understand what African-Americans have went through throughout the centuries. African-Americans have to try twice as hard as anyone else to overcome challenges as everyone else. You see, the reason why immigrant communities succeed is because of us! It is because of the civil rights movement many immigrants reap the rewards of the sacrifices black pioneers have made. Let us look at it as a race. In the history of the United States you have whites with a 40 second head start, the Native America is not even in the race and the black man and woman just began sprinting. When the civil rights movement began this propelled blacks ten seconds. With progressive laws on the books and rights restored this propelled blacks to be almost right behind whites. Here comes the immigrant in the race and the black man/woman slingshots the immigrant ahead of them..

It was true in 50s .. maybe it was true till 70s. Not now. If books are missing at school why can you not buy from second hand bookstores?

Every black who complains should spend a month at Indian villages and see how kids with very little food, no meat protein, no electricity study and progress in life .. stop making excuses .. you have never seen real poverty.

As you can see, despite some of the failures and the negative media portrayals of black Americans, without the progressive black Americans fighting for civil rights, Indians would not be successful in this country. So I think in part Indians like any other migrant community owe that to the pioneering black Americans. I think Indians forget that.

Completely untrue. We owe nothing to blacks and have nothing to learn from them. We mirror the Jews and that is what we aspire to become - the most powerful minority in US.

namaste

A_B