• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why are multiple universes science?

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
Multipl universes have been proposed in relation to various cosmological models such as brane mechanics, but I wouldn't use it in connection to fine tuning, which means something altogether different to physicists than in theological discussions.
That sort of fine-tuning is not a scientific concept, but an a priori assumption that the only life that could have formed is the form that we know. Plus, the assumption that the universe is fine-tuned to the form we know rather than the opposite (the form adapted to fit the environment). My favorite illustration on this topic is the much maligned puddle analogy by Douglas Adams:
Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.

Multiple universes are a natural consequence of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics. Some models *are* testable because they have gravitational interactions between universes. There was even one (discredited) report of anomalies that could be attributed to such interaction.

To the extent these models are testable, they are clearly science.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
It's speculation. So it's scientific speculation at best at this time..
 
Last edited:

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
That sort of fine-tuning is not a scientific concept, but an a priori assumption that the only life that could have formed is the form that we know.
It's not just about life as we know it, but rather, about the possibility of anything at all living able to exist in a universe with different settings of the fundamental constants.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Multiple universes are a natural consequence of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics. Some models *are* testable because they have gravitational interactions between universes. There was even one (discredited) report of anomalies that could be attributed to such interaction.

To the extent these models are testable, they are clearly science.
I don't know what to think about this. I wonder why unifying GR and QM provides the framework for a proof of something like multiple universes?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not just about life as we know it, but rather, about the possibility of anything at all living able to exist in a universe with different settings of the fundamental constants.
There isn't, and can't, be any probability inclusion of the possibility of life differing from our own. The only calculations we have is for carbon based life descended from simple amino self-replicators.
If conditions were different, there is a better than zero chance that different chemical self replicators would arise. But since we only have our universe and its selective forces on early life to study, we won't know. But to say it's impossible would be presumptive.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
Quantum science experiments confirm something similar to multiverse but it depends on interpretation of the evidence. Other interpretations include believing the moon doesn't exist unless your looking at it.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know what to think about this. I wonder why unifying GR and QM provides the framework for a proof of something like multiple universes?

Certainly not proof. All attempts to unify those two theories are, at this time, pure speculation.

But we know they need to be unified. And, to the extent we have figured out ways to do so, the attempts have also produced multiple universes in some way.

Now, part of this might well be an artifact of the way the unifications are attempted: the 'sum over histories' approach to QM tends to be easier to unify, but also naturally leads to multiple universes.

Why does it do this? Well, QM is inherently a probabilistic theory. In GR, that probability leads to a split between different potential metrics, which can be interpreted as multiple universes (and that is the most natural interpretation of the symbolism).

So, yes, take this *all* with a healthy grain of salt (be careful of High Blood Pressure!).

NONE of this should be interpreted as proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Nor, even a concurrence of the evidence. It is almost *pure* speculation at this point.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Quantum science experiments confirm something similar to multiverse but it depends on interpretation of the evidence. Other interpretations include believing the moon doesn't exist unless your looking at it.

There are intermediates. For example, studies of decoherence allow the moon to exist when nobody is looking at it while still having a probabilistic aspect microscopically.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.

It is outside the domain of science but fun to speculate about.
 

james blunt

Well-Known Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
Let me set the record straight for you , there is no such think as multiple universes, there is one universe with multiple observable universes. The size of the observable Universe being relative to light intensity and magnitude over a distance. You can't see beyond the observable boundary of light. So imagine one universe with multiple ''light spheres'' floating about and you will understand the physics behind the idea.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?

Some have proposed there are multiple universes; this, to explain how the fundamental constants are fine-tuned so accurately to allow for chemical biological life to arise and develop via evolution (or even to exist at all). But it seems to me this question is outside the domain of science.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The constants weren't 'designed' to accommodate life, life accommodated itself to the conditions that existed. Given different conditions, perhaps an entirely different sort of life would have developed, or no life at all.
It's not just about life as we know it, but rather, about the possibility of anything at all living able to exist in a universe with different settings of the fundamental constants.
In a universe with different settings, might not the life generated, however unlike our own, be making the same speculation about design? In a universe with toxic settings, of course, there would be no-one to speculate either way.
Let me set the record straight for you , there is no such think as multiple universes, there is one universe with multiple observable universes. The size of the observable Universe being relative to light intensity and magnitude over a distance. You can't see beyond the observable boundary of light. So imagine one universe with multiple ''light spheres'' floating about and you will understand the physics behind the idea.
Well thanks for clearing that up.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why are multiple universes science?
First and perhaps most fundamentally they are because perhaps the most successful physical theory in existence (quantum theory, and in particular the non-relativistic quantum mechanics whence relativistic QFT, particle physics, etc., are derived) involves a description of physical systems which is at once utterly and completely deterministic (not to mention incredibly simple, by virtue of linearity) and probabilistic. The earliest multiverse theory did not originate from attempts to reconcile general relativity with quantum theory nor with any cosmological models nor fine tuning but rather the interpretation of the simplest description of the most fundamental interactions. By rejecting Born's rule and any similar projection postulate more generally, Hugh Everett III and those who developed his relative state interpretation into the various many-worlds theories seen today proposed instead that, even though in any and every experimental setting (or any setting, for that matter) only one of the possible outcomes yielded by quantum theory appears to be realized, this is because all outcomes are realized but each in a single universe.
Basically, quantum mechanics gives us a completely deterministic picture right up until we actually use it. Then we must encode, impose, and utilize a statistical structure into the theory and the measurement process. But we need not assume (so goes the argument) that this extra structure is required to describe physical processes/systems. Instead, some assert, we should take at face value the fact that quantum theory tells us the outcomes of physical processes and the fact that we interpret these probabilistically is because in any particular universe only one possible outcome is realized.
This is, of course, not the only way in which multiverse theories are part of theoretical physics, cosmology, etc. The idea of multiple universes in some cases really only means that there is a single universe, but because of e.g., expansion "parts" of the universe become so fundamentally isolated they are universes in and of themselves from a physical perspective. So sometimes it is simply a matter of semantics: we change what we mean by "universe", making the term apply to sufficiently distinct, isolated realms of the whole of physical reality whilst applying the term "multiverse" to the sum of all such realms (what formerly and in many cases still even multiverse proponents would admit it meant by "universe").

Multiple universes are a natural consequence of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics. Some models *are* testable because they have gravitational interactions between universes. There was even one (discredited) report of anomalies that could be attributed to such interaction.
To the extent these models are testable, they are clearly science.
Not exactly. They are not testable (in most cases, they are postulated because they cannot even in principle be tested, whence comes the idea that it is appropriate to speak of multiple universe- realms so isolated and enclosed from what we would call the universe that it can be helpful or informative to speak of them as universes themselves. Put differently, they are tested mathematically, not empirically and in many cases cannot ever be tested empirically.
Also, there are not really any natural consequences of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics because there are no known natural ways to do this really. Also, most of the cosmological multiverse theories are not due to quantum gravity but to assumptions about what it might be. In fact, sometimes quantum gravity doesn't play any role at all. General relativity and expansion yield certain multiverse cosmologies without any quantum theory of gravity.
We can't test gravitational interactions among universe because
1) We can't test any interaction among physical realms that are called universes because by definition they are so distinct as to prohibit any possible interactions
2) We have no way of testing any gravitational effects that involve quantum theory as in quantum descriptions of spacetime, not only is spacetime affine but gravity is a field mediated by a postulated "particle" rather than spacetime curvature
3) Underdetermination of would-be theory by data

From the physics point of view, though, the question of fine tuning is an added benefit. The *real* issue is the unification of GR and QM.
Not necessarily. Multiverse cosmologies are proposed sometimes specifically because they solve the fine-tuning problem. They are postulated to explain why our universe has the properties it does- namely, any would-be finely tuned parameters are not finely tuned but are one realization out of many actual realizations.
"Despite the growing popularity of the multiverse proposal, it must be admitted that many physicists remain deeply uncomfortable with it. The reason is clear: the idea is highly speculative and, from both a cosmological and a particle physics perspective, the reality of a multiverse is currently untestable. Indeed, it may always remain so, in the sense that astronomers may never be able to observe the other universes with telescopes a and particle physicists may never be able to observe the extra dimensions with their accelerators...
For these reasons, some physicists do not regard these ideas as coming under the purvey of science at all. Since our confidence in them is based on faith and aesthetic considerations (for example mathematical beauty) rather than experimental data, they regard them as having more in common with religion than science. This view has been expressed forcefully by commentators such as Sheldon Glashow [22], Martin Gardner [23] and George Ellis [24], with widely differing metaphysical outlooks. Indeed, Paul Davies [25] regards the concept of a multiverse as just as metaphysical as that of a Creator who fine-tuned a single universe for our existence."
From the editor's introduction to Carr, B. (2007). (Ed.). Universe or Multiverse? Cambridge University Press.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
First and perhaps most fundamentally they are because perhaps the most successful physical theory in existence (quantum theory, and in particular the non-relativistic quantum mechanics whence relativistic QFT, particle physics, etc., are derived) involves a description of physical systems which is at once utterly and completely deterministic (not to mention incredibly simple, by virtue of linearity) and probabilistic. The earliest multiverse theory did not originate from attempts to reconcile general relativity with quantum theory nor with any cosmological models nor fine tuning but rather the interpretation of the simplest description of the most fundamental interactions. By rejecting Born's rule and any similar projection postulate more generally, Hugh Everett III and those who developed his relative state interpretation into the various many-worlds theories seen today proposed instead that, even though in any and every experimental setting (or any setting, for that matter) only one of the possible outcomes yielded by quantum theory appears to be realized, this is because all outcomes are realized but each in a single universe.
Basically, quantum mechanics gives us a completely deterministic picture right up until we actually use it. Then we must encode, impose, and utilize a statistical structure into the theory and the measurement process. But we need not assume (so goes the argument) that this extra structure is required to describe physical processes/systems. Instead, some assert, we should take at face value the fact that quantum theory tells us the outcomes of physical processes and the fact that we interpret these probabilistically is because in any particular universe only one possible outcome is realized.
This is, of course, not the only way in which multiverse theories are part of theoretical physics, cosmology, etc. The idea of multiple universes in some cases really only means that there is a single universe, but because of e.g., expansion "parts" of the universe become so fundamentally isolated they are universes in and of themselves from a physical perspective. So sometimes it is simply a matter of semantics: we change what we mean by "universe", making the term apply to sufficiently distinct, isolated realms of the whole of physical reality whilst applying the term "multiverse" to the sum of all such realms (what formerly and in many cases still even multiverse proponents would admit it meant by "universe").


Not exactly. They are not testable (in most cases, they are postulated because they cannot even in principle be tested, whence comes the idea that it is appropriate to speak of multiple universe- realms so isolated and enclosed from what we would call the universe that it can be helpful or informative to speak of them as universes themselves. Put differently, they are tested mathematically, not empirically and in many cases cannot ever be tested empirically.
Also, there are not really any natural consequences of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics because there are no known natural ways to do this really. Also, most of the cosmological multiverse theories are not due to quantum gravity but to assumptions about what it might be. In fact, sometimes quantum gravity doesn't play any role at all. General relativity and expansion yield certain multiverse cosmologies without any quantum theory of gravity.
We can't test gravitational interactions among universe because
1) We can't test any interaction among physical realms that are called universes because by definition they are so distinct as to prohibit any possible interactions
2) We have no way of testing any gravitational effects that involve quantum theory as in quantum descriptions of spacetime, not only is spacetime affine but gravity is a field mediated by a postulated "particle" rather than spacetime curvature
3) Underdetermination of would-be theory by data


Not necessarily. Multiverse cosmologies are proposed sometimes specifically because they solve the fine-tuning problem. They are postulated to explain why our universe has the properties it does- namely, any would-be finely tuned parameters are not finely tuned but are one realization out of many actual realizations.
"Despite the growing popularity of the multiverse proposal, it must be admitted that many physicists remain deeply uncomfortable with it. The reason is clear: the idea is highly speculative and, from both a cosmological and a particle physics perspective, the reality of a multiverse is currently untestable. Indeed, it may always remain so, in the sense that astronomers may never be able to observe the other universes with telescopes a and particle physicists may never be able to observe the extra dimensions with their accelerators...
For these reasons, some physicists do not regard these ideas as coming under the purvey of science at all. Since our confidence in them is based on faith and aesthetic considerations (for example mathematical beauty) rather than experimental data, they regard them as having more in common with religion than science. This view has been expressed forcefully by commentators such as Sheldon Glashow [22], Martin Gardner [23] and George Ellis [24], with widely differing metaphysical outlooks. Indeed, Paul Davies [25] regards the concept of a multiverse as just as metaphysical as that of a Creator who fine-tuned a single universe for our existence."
From the editor's introduction to Carr, B. (2007). (Ed.). Universe or Multiverse? Cambridge University Press.

Welcome back! Cheers for being as informative and detailed as ever.

*tips hat*
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
First and perhaps most fundamentally they are because perhaps the most successful physical theory in existence (quantum theory, and in particular the non-relativistic quantum mechanics whence relativistic QFT, particle physics, etc., are derived) involves a description of physical systems which is at once utterly and completely deterministic (not to mention incredibly simple, by virtue of linearity) and probabilistic. The earliest multiverse theory did not originate from attempts to reconcile general relativity with quantum theory nor with any cosmological models nor fine tuning but rather the interpretation of the simplest description of the most fundamental interactions. By rejecting Born's rule and any similar projection postulate more generally, Hugh Everett III and those who developed his relative state interpretation into the various many-worlds theories seen today proposed instead that, even though in any and every experimental setting (or any setting, for that matter) only one of the possible outcomes yielded by quantum theory appears to be realized, this is because all outcomes are realized but each in a single universe.
Basically, quantum mechanics gives us a completely deterministic picture right up until we actually use it. Then we must encode, impose, and utilize a statistical structure into the theory and the measurement process. But we need not assume (so goes the argument) that this extra structure is required to describe physical processes/systems. Instead, some assert, we should take at face value the fact that quantum theory tells us the outcomes of physical processes and the fact that we interpret these probabilistically is because in any particular universe only one possible outcome is realized.
This is, of course, not the only way in which multiverse theories are part of theoretical physics, cosmology, etc. The idea of multiple universes in some cases really only means that there is a single universe, but because of e.g., expansion "parts" of the universe become so fundamentally isolated they are universes in and of themselves from a physical perspective. So sometimes it is simply a matter of semantics: we change what we mean by "universe", making the term apply to sufficiently distinct, isolated realms of the whole of physical reality whilst applying the term "multiverse" to the sum of all such realms (what formerly and in many cases still even multiverse proponents would admit it meant by "universe").


Not exactly. They are not testable (in most cases, they are postulated because they cannot even in principle be tested, whence comes the idea that it is appropriate to speak of multiple universe- realms so isolated and enclosed from what we would call the universe that it can be helpful or informative to speak of them as universes themselves. Put differently, they are tested mathematically, not empirically and in many cases cannot ever be tested empirically.
Also, there are not really any natural consequences of attempts to unify general relativity and quantum mechanics because there are no known natural ways to do this really. Also, most of the cosmological multiverse theories are not due to quantum gravity but to assumptions about what it might be. In fact, sometimes quantum gravity doesn't play any role at all. General relativity and expansion yield certain multiverse cosmologies without any quantum theory of gravity.
We can't test gravitational interactions among universe because
1) We can't test any interaction among physical realms that are called universes because by definition they are so distinct as to prohibit any possible interactions
2) We have no way of testing any gravitational effects that involve quantum theory as in quantum descriptions of spacetime, not only is spacetime affine but gravity is a field mediated by a postulated "particle" rather than spacetime curvature
3) Underdetermination of would-be theory by data


Not necessarily. Multiverse cosmologies are proposed sometimes specifically because they solve the fine-tuning problem. They are postulated to explain why our universe has the properties it does- namely, any would-be finely tuned parameters are not finely tuned but are one realization out of many actual realizations.
"Despite the growing popularity of the multiverse proposal, it must be admitted that many physicists remain deeply uncomfortable with it. The reason is clear: the idea is highly speculative and, from both a cosmological and a particle physics perspective, the reality of a multiverse is currently untestable. Indeed, it may always remain so, in the sense that astronomers may never be able to observe the other universes with telescopes a and particle physicists may never be able to observe the extra dimensions with their accelerators...
For these reasons, some physicists do not regard these ideas as coming under the purvey of science at all. Since our confidence in them is based on faith and aesthetic considerations (for example mathematical beauty) rather than experimental data, they regard them as having more in common with religion than science. This view has been expressed forcefully by commentators such as Sheldon Glashow [22], Martin Gardner [23] and George Ellis [24], with widely differing metaphysical outlooks. Indeed, Paul Davies [25] regards the concept of a multiverse as just as metaphysical as that of a Creator who fine-tuned a single universe for our existence."
From the editor's introduction to Carr, B. (2007). (Ed.). Universe or Multiverse? Cambridge University Press.

Agreed. One of the aspects that is often missed is that there are several different types of multiverse discussed.

There is the Everette version where the universe 'splits' at every quantum event. This follows fairly naturally from basic QM.

There is a GR version where the 'universe' is infinite, but with varying 'constants', so that every combination occurs somewhere. Because of causal disconnectedness, these pieces can be described as universes in their own right.

There are situations where there is a background geometry from which universes 'bud off', possibly with different properties in each.

There are situations where most forces are directed along certain subspaces (producing different 'universes'), but where gravity can go between such subspaces. This type may actually be testable because of the gravitational interactions.

There are situations where the underlying symmetry group 'splits' in a way that two different families of fundamental particles are postulated that only interact (between the families) via gravity. In a sense, there is a 'dual' universe beside ours. This is also, potentially, testable.

And, I'm sure, there are many others that have been described. This is only off the top of my head.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Agreed. One of the aspects that is often missed is that there are several different types of multiverse discussed.

There is the Everette version where the universe 'splits' at every quantum event. This follows fairly naturally from basic QM.

There is a GR version where the 'universe' is infinite, but with varying 'constants', so that every combination occurs somewhere. Because of causal disconnectedness, these pieces can be described as universes in their own right.

There are situations where there is a background geometry from which universes 'bud off', possibly with different properties in each.

There are situations where most forces are directed along certain subspaces (producing different 'universes'), but where gravity can go between such subspaces. This type may actually be testable because of the gravitational interactions.

There are situations where the underlying symmetry group 'splits' in a way that two different families of fundamental particles are postulated that only interact (between the families) via gravity. In a sense, there is a 'dual' universe beside ours. This is also, potentially, testable.

And, I'm sure, there are many others that have been describe. This is only off the top of my head.
I was wondering when the 2 of you would meet.
 
Top