Why aren't those who claimed to be upset about Russia complaining about China

[Polymath257]

Or even the actions/inactions of the U.S. during the 1918 pandemic.

Yeah, pretty much every major government dropped the ball on that one. The wartime mentality didn't help either.

 

[tytlyf]

The archives are full of valid rebuttals on that. It would be just redundancy at this point rehashing the same old arguments over and over again.

How convenient for you. The archives are full! Darnit!

 

[Augustus]

Let's face it. The severity of this virus has shocked pretty much everyone. I was also initially skeptical that it was a 'big deal'. Well, pretty much everyone was wrong about this.

One question is when people started to take it seriously. Trump was clearly a late comer on this, although his tentative border closing was reasonably early.

Now, let's figure out how to go *forward*. How can WHO, Trump, Cuomo, Merkel, *anyone* give insight on what to do next?

As a large bureaucratic arm of the UN, dependent on funding from a number of major donors, the WHO is not some neutral institutions of scientists, but part of a body influenced profoundly by political interests.

Forget Trump, but people should be asking questions about them. Nothing they have done so far suggests we should view them as being competent as regards this issue, but they are still frequently treated as if "the WHO believes..." should carry a great deal of weight.

Here is a WHO official pretending not to hear a question, then avoiding it, then calling Taiwan 'part of China'. Why should we believe that they were entirely neutral during the early stages of the outbreak when they were advocating against stopping travel to/from China?

Does this look like an organisation that does not feel under pressure to toe the official Chinese line?

The WHO were also advocating against masks, whereas a successful country like Taiwan who has been advocating them can't even attend their meetings.

If Trump was a late comer on this (which he undoubtedly was), the WHO was arguably even later. If he deserves criticism (which he does), so do they.

That doesn't mean we should ignore them, but the fact they have been consistently wrong should be part of the conversation too.

And no, promoting medicines that are not known to work is not the answer.

Presidents telling the public to take medicines is stupid for a number of reasons, there is enough evidence that this treatment is something that should be part of the treatment options on the table though.

The 'evidence based' approach has consistently failed as evidence of the kind they desire arrives too slowly. 'No evidence' a travel ban is needed, 'no evidence' masks help, 'no evidence' this treatment works...

The approach should always have been based on asymmetry: the downside of being wrong about the need for a China travel ban was far less than being wrong about not banning travel. The downside of being wrong about masks working is far less than the downside of being wrong about them not working. For many people, the downside of being wrong about hydroxychloroquine working, is far less than the downside of being wrong about it not working...[/QUOTE]

 

[Polymath257]

The approach should always have been based on asymmetry: the downside of being wrong about the need for a China travel ban was far less than being wrong about not banning travel. The downside of being wrong about masks working is far less than the downside of being wrong about them not working. For many people, the downside of being wrong about hydroxychloroquine working, is far less than the downside of being wrong about it not working...

That is part of the problem. Hydroxychloroqine can be very toxic if not used correctly. It can also lead to blindness and metabolic issues. Being wrong about it working carries *significant* risks.

My wife is on it and needs to have her eyes examined to be sure there isn't any degeneration every year. A standard eye exam is NOT good enough.

Part of the danger is telling people a med is completely safe when we *know* it has to be used with a LOT of care.

 

[Kenny]

Of course it's been happening his whole life. I prefer to call out ignoramuses. Instead of enjoying eating lies all day. Incompetence doesn't deserve to be celebrated.

And as far as Covid-19 - I can't say the Pres has been incompetent. Unless one is searching for any excuse to be a good enough excuse to say he has been.

 

[Augustus]

That is part of the problem. Hydroxychloroqine can be very toxic if not used correctly. It can also lead to blindness and metabolic issues. Being wrong about it working carries *significant* risks.

Being ill with coronavirus carries even more significant risks, vastly more so for many people.

Part of the danger is telling people a med is completely safe when we *know* it has to be used with a LOT of care.

I wasn't advocating people taking it willy-nilly or saying that it was 'completely safe', just that, in general, doctors might want to be less conservative in their treatment options than they would be under normal circumstances.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ch

As the media didn't prime their reactions to be against China nor stoking an existing concern by fearmonger and sensationalism. Toss in every major US media company and Hollywood do far more business in China than Russia. China is a huge market with an insane government. Media does not want to bite the hand that feeds.

China's government is far from insane, unlike western countries it always take the long view.
However it does not have a crystal ball.
In this case it was able to Build hospitals in record quick time, contain entire cities to stop the transmission of the virus to new areas. Muster PPE supplies and ventilation equipment in the needed quantities.
Organises food supplies directly to living blocks ( no shopping needed) and still manage to keep the necessary production facilities open in safe parts of the country.
Its organisation abilities far exceed any western country, and perhaps only nearly equalled in S Korea.

In comparison the western countries, even though they had the warning data and experience from China to work with, failed to act promptly, and let the virus escape into their populations. with the resulting massively higher infection and death rates compared to China. Trump's dithering and denials and misinformation has directly influenced and brought about the massive death toll in the USA, which can only increase still further as the virus spreads to other regions.

There is still no coordinated health and supply structure in place, and the blame game is in full swing.
The USA was, and will remain ill prepared to face any pandemic from what ever source. Trump had dismantled the only organisation, that had been in place, to tackle such emergencies. It is now having to set up federal and local coordination bodies from scratch. a task seemingly beyond his abilities.

The buck can only stop in one place, and that is at the top.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Only viewable to those from the UK or who have other means, but this is worth a watch (and was news to me), and indicated that China withheld drug information that could combat malaria from the rest of the world for over 15 years, because of political considerations.

BBC iPlayer - The Horizon Guide to Pandemic (From 2009 and worth watching - but more about malaria, AIDS, smallpox, SARS, and H5N1 than the current crisis, although of course relevant)

And this BBC video is worth a look too:

BBC iPlayer - Secret Universe: The Hidden Life of the Cell

 

[Shad]

Maybe a different comparison? How about we compare China's actions or inactions on this virus to Russia's actions and inactions concerning the Chernobyl disaster?

Why when my point about business relations is spot on. After all my point was about media

 

[Shad]

China's government is far from insane, unlike western countries it always take the long view.

Point I never made.

However it does not have a crystal ball.

A point I never made.

In this case it was able to Build hospitals in record quick time, contain entire cities to stop the transmission of the virus to new areas. Muster PPE supplies and ventilation equipment in the needed quantities.
Organises food supplies directly to living blocks ( no shopping needed) and still manage to keep the necessary production facilities open in safe parts of the country.
Its organisation abilities far exceed any western country, and perhaps only nearly equalled in S Korea.

Arrested whistle blowers then lied about their data. Yawn

In comparison the western countries, even though they had the warning data and experience from China to work with, failed to act promptly, and let the virus escape into their populations. with the resulting massively higher infection and death rates compared to China. Trump's dithering and denials and misinformation has directly influenced and brought about the massive death toll in the USA, which can only increase still further as the virus spreads to other regions.

Except nations did start to take action once data that was not from China showed China lied about the virus. Trump took action while Biden and the Dems were calling him xenophobic. Tell people to go to Chinatown and have fun. Try again.

There is still no coordinated health and supply structure in place, and the blame game is in full swing.

Assertion

The USA was, and will remain ill prepared to face any pandemic from what ever source. Trump had dismantled the only organisation, that had been in place, to tackle such emergencies. It is now having to set up federal and local coordination bodies from scratch. a task seemingly beyond his abilities.

Wrong as the organization still exists.

The buck can only stop in one place, and that is at the top.

Nope. See, son, there is something called Congress. Congress did nothing but whine for month while Trump was taking action. Try again.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Maybe a different comparison? How about we compare China's actions or inactions on this virus to Russia's actions and inactions concerning the Chernobyl disaster?

Remember that Russia initially denied anything happened, even though it knew otherwise, and kept denying it even though the radioactive cloud crossing Europe was obvious to those keeping track of such things. it was only later that it opened up about what happened.

For China, we had an initial denial, even internally, and then considerably more openness about the details of what they knew about this virus (although perhaps not in terms of death rates).

Again, in this case, both were unexpected events. As far as I can tell, Russia comes out slightly worse, but the overall impact of their denial was less than what would have happened if China had not let everyone know what was going on until cases showed up in other countries. So, Russia was less honest, but the stakes were higher for China.

More and better information earlier would have benefitted the whole world.
As it stands the US had to look at the effect on Italy as example and that was too late for Italy and too late to avoid allot of harm elsewhere

 

[Shadow Link]

Are there lessons learned for liberals, conservatives, and the US, Russia and China relations?

Get back on the gold standard and become as independent of a nation as possible -- big banks are in control because of these neglects. Understand that the driving force behind the implementation of a one world system is power and greed, not individual liberty and intellectual freedom.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Get back on the gold standard and become as independent of a nation as possible -- big banks are in control because of these neglects. Understand that the driving force behind the implementation of a one world system is power and greed, not individual liberty and intellectual freedom.

I suppose one lesson is to take information from either Russia or China with a grain of salt

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Get back on the gold standard and become as independent of a nation as possible -- big banks are in control because of these neglects. Understand that the driving force behind the implementation of a one world system is power and greed, not individual liberty and intellectual freedom.

There is not enough gold in the world to go back on to the gold standard.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I suppose one lesson is to take information from either Russia or China with a grain of salt

All countries control the flow of information.
It is almost never the whole truth about anything... China is no different in this
.
There are usually good reasons to control the flow of information, such as to stop panic, panic buying and uncontrolled movement of people, before the necessary controls are in place.

The statistics given out by the UK government only includes people who died or are tested in hospital This is only a fraction of the people who might be infected and excludes people who have died at home or in care homes, prisons or other such places.
The figures they give are probably reasonably accurate in that limited sense, but also include several days time lag as they only count people when that death was registered not when they died which can be a several day delay.

 

[Salvador]

....China, on the other hand, failed to understand the magnitude of the problem and to let others know of its mistakes early and openly.

"When Dr. Ai Fen, the head of the emergency department at Wuhan Central Hospital, shared a picture of lab test results and a video of lung scans on December 30, she was harshly reprimanded. When Dr. Li Wenliang disseminated information about the virus through posts on WeChat in a group with more than 100 of his classmates from medical school that said there were "7 SARS like cases confirmed from the Hua'nan Seafood Market," the government reaction was to censor the spread of this information and take it out of social media."..."

"On the last day of 2019, 23 days after the apparent first confirmed patient started showing symptoms, the Wuhan branch of the National Health Commission said, "The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission or infection of medical staff." Officials claimed, "The disease is preventable and controllable." ..."

" The Times of London reported that by late December, laboratories in China discovered an unknown highly infectious virus, but "were ordered to stop tests, destroy samples, and suppress the news."..."

"On the first day of 2020, in an effort to keep others quiet and stop information from spreading, eight whistleblowers, including Dr. Li, were issued summonses by the Wuhan Public Security Bureau and brought in for questioning for posting information about the virus on WeChat."

"The police detention was widely reported in the media. Medical professionals all got the message to stay quiet about the disease."

"Ironically (and tragically) by January 2, the Wuhan Institute of Virology identified and mapped genome of a new coronavirus—but it was kept secret."

"By January 6, the rumors were strong enough that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Robert Redfield offered to send a team to China. The dictatorship didn't accept the offer...."

"However, it is clear Xi knew about the virus by January 7, about the time the Americans were offering to help. By January 9, the Chinese government was admitting it had a virus and announced it had mapped the genetic sequence, but it did not release the data until January 12. They did not, however, reveal critical information about who was sick, when they got sick and critical demographic information about those infected, so evaluation of the outbreak remained inadequate."

"January 12 was also the day Dr. Li, who had been reprimanded for reporting on the virus, was hospitalized for contracting coronavirus."

"On January 13, the first case was reported outside of China, in Thailand."

"The next day, on January 14, the World Health Organization continued its recent behavior of protecting dictatorships. It announced that Chinese authorities have witnessed "no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus." The World Health Organization continued its recent pattern of lying for dictators when an official said during a press conference that day that there could also be "limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families."..."

"On January 15, the first American coronavirus patient returned to the United States from Wuhan, while Li Qun (the head of China CDC emergency center) said on state television "after careful screening and prudent judgment, we have reached the latest understanding that the risk of human-to-human transmission is low.".."

"Finally, on January 20, China confirmed human-to-human transmission, and the first case was announced in South Korea."

"The Chinese dictatorship's efforts to suppress and deny the reality of the virus came at tremendous human cost to the Chinese people and to the rest of the world."

"An analysis by the University of Southampton estimated that 95 percent of the infections would have been avoided if the aggressive intervention had only occurred three weeks (not three months, three weeks) earlier than they had....

The amount of the damage the Chinese dictatorship has done to its own people and by letting the epidemic get out of control and turn into a pandemic—and the amount of damage it has done to people around the world—is stunning."

Newt Gingrich: How China mismanaged and lied about coronavirus—then blamed America | Opinion

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

"When Dr. Ai Fen, the head of the emergency department at Wuhan Central Hospital, shared a picture of lab test results and a video of lung scans on December 30, she was harshly reprimanded. When Dr. Li Wenliang disseminated information about the virus through posts on WeChat in a group with more than 100 of his classmates from medical school that said there were "7 SARS like cases confirmed from the Hua'nan Seafood Market," the government reaction was to censor the spread of this information and take it out of social media."..."

"On the last day of 2019, 23 days after the apparent first confirmed patient started showing symptoms, the Wuhan branch of the National Health Commission said, "The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission or infection of medical staff." Officials claimed, "The disease is preventable and controllable." ..."

" The Times of London reported that by late December, laboratories in China discovered an unknown highly infectious virus, but "were ordered to stop tests, destroy samples, and suppress the news."..."

"On the first day of 2020, in an effort to keep others quiet and stop information from spreading, eight whistleblowers, including Dr. Li, were issued summonses by the Wuhan Public Security Bureau and brought in for questioning for posting information about the virus on WeChat."

"The police detention was widely reported in the media. Medical professionals all got the message to stay quiet about the disease."

"Ironically (and tragically) by January 2, the Wuhan Institute of Virology identified and mapped genome of a new coronavirus—but it was kept secret."

"By January 6, the rumors were strong enough that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Robert Redfield offered to send a team to China. The dictatorship didn't accept the offer...."

"However, it is clear Xi knew about the virus by January 7, about the time the Americans were offering to help. By January 9, the Chinese government was admitting it had a virus and announced it had mapped the genetic sequence, but it did not release the data until January 12. They did not, however, reveal critical information about who was sick, when they got sick and critical demographic information about those infected, so evaluation of the outbreak remained inadequate."

"January 12 was also the day Dr. Li, who had been reprimanded for reporting on the virus, was hospitalized for contracting coronavirus."

"On January 13, the first case was reported outside of China, in Thailand."

"The next day, on January 14, the World Health Organization continued its recent behavior of protecting dictatorships. It announced that Chinese authorities have witnessed "no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus." The World Health Organization continued its recent pattern of lying for dictators when an official said during a press conference that day that there could also be "limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families."..."

"On January 15, the first American coronavirus patient returned to the United States from Wuhan, while Li Qun (the head of China CDC emergency center) said on state television "after careful screening and prudent judgment, we have reached the latest understanding that the risk of human-to-human transmission is low.".."

"Finally, on January 20, China confirmed human-to-human transmission, and the first case was announced in South Korea."

"The Chinese dictatorship's efforts to suppress and deny the reality of the virus came at tremendous human cost to the Chinese people and to the rest of the world."

"An analysis by the University of Southampton estimated that 95 percent of the infections would have been avoided if the aggressive intervention had only occurred three weeks (not three months, three weeks) earlier than they had....

The amount of the damage the Chinese dictatorship has done to its own people and by letting the epidemic get out of control and turn into a pandemic—and the amount of damage it has done to people around the world—is stunning."

Newt Gingrich: How China mismanaged and lied about coronavirus—then blamed America | Opinion

From your own post it is clear that By January the 6th. That the USA. was well aware of the Corona virus and it's potential pandemic status.
The USA has always been responsible for it's own handling of this and other domestic situations.
The present worlds worst and horrendous figures, indicate that it has failed its people in this.

 

[Salvador]

From your own post it is clear that By January the 6th. That the USA. was well aware of the Corona virus and it's potential pandemic status.
The USA has always been responsible for it's own handling of this and other domestic situations.
The present worlds worst and horrendous figures, indicate that it has failed its people in this.

On Jan. 29, Peter Navarro warned his colleagues at the White House that if the administration did not mount an aggressive containment strategy for the coronavirus, it could kill more than half a million Americans and cost the country nearly $6 trillion.

My wife is at home sick with a persistent cough and tightness in her chest, but because she's not quite sick enough to be hospitalized, we can't even get tested for Covid-19. I'm disappointed on March 6th, our chosen leader President Donald J. Trump promised us there'd be enough available Covid-19 testing available for anybody who wanted this done. However, because of a lack of available Covid-19 testing, we still have mostly no idea who or how many Americans have been infected by Covid-19.

 

[Shad]

then calling Taiwan 'part of China'.

More so treating repeating's PRC's claim as if true while ignoring the similar claim of ROC's regarding the mainland. The UN is repeating the same mistakes made after the Chinese civil war by endorsing such claims. When WHO spouts PRC propaganda it's credibility is already a problem before any medical issues come to bear

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

More so treating repeating's PRC's claim as if true while ignoring the similar claim of ROC's regarding the mainland. The UN is repeating the same mistakes made after the Chinese civil war by endorsing such claims. When WHO spouts PRC propaganda it's credibility is already a problem before any medical issues come to bear

Formosa/Taiwan has always been part of China. It has been occupied by Chinese nationalists since their defeat by the Red army. However the Civil war never had a conclusion, and is still similar to that in North/South Korea, it is still ongoing though largely dormant. The Chinese claim to the Island still stands. and most countries and world bodies concede that the claim is legally valid.