Why be muslim?

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Thats your belief. Lakum deenakum waliya deen meaning: for you your religion and for us ours.

 

[Kirran]

Thats your belief. Lakum deenakum waliya deen meaning: for you your religion and for us ours.

What's the source of that phrase? I'd like to write it down with my other quotes

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm afraid I don't get this.

What I mean is that societies and beliefs can and will have contact, appealing as the idea of homogeneous, well-separated communities may sometimes appear. What people think of each other's beliefs is therefore not an inconsequential matter.

 

[Kirran]

What I mean is that societies and beliefs can and will have contact, appealing as the idea of homogeneous, well-separated communities may sometimes appear. What people think of each other's beliefs is therefore not an inconsequential matter.

No, not inconsequential, but if somebody disagrees with an aspect of your beliefs, based on their own worldview's alternative foundations, then that's just that. I see no reason a Muslim would need to change their beliefs here.

 

[LuisDantas]

No, not inconsequential, but if somebody disagrees with an aspect of your beliefs, based on their own worldview's alternative foundations, then that's just that. I see no reason a Muslim would need to change their beliefs here.

It is impossible not to change our beliefs when we face the world as it is. At the most, we can resist that and attempt to delve in denial.

Or, I suppose, we may hope for a world where everyone agrees with us. A dangerous hope, that one.

 

[Kirran]

It is impossible not to change our beliefs when we face the world as it is. At the most, we can resist that and attempt to delve in denial.

Or, I suppose, we may hope for a world where everyone agrees with us. A dangerous hope, that one.

Well allow beliefs to change organically then, sure. But don't let there be an obligation.

I can't see the latter scenario arising anytime soon, I've gotta say, and as you say the hope for it is very dangerous.

 

[Gharib]

That sure looks straightforward in a certain way: Islam, according to this view (which I will call Orthodox for lack of a better word) is not simply the last and more complete of the Abrahamic Traditions, but pretty much the only true religion, the only one that acknowledges the One True God and does not get off the rails while trying to pay its respects to Him. It even starts with the very first human being and is supposed to be present at birth or even before.

If you look at Islam from an Islamic perspective, all those that submitted to Allah in previous times in accord to His commands, they are Muslims. It's when a new Prophet was sent, which they refused to accept, that their beliefs and worship became null as they refused the new commands of God, ie to follow the new messenger.

And Islam is the way or the commands that God sets for us, so it is not confined to this life or world and not confined to just humans.

Very dangerous and very unconvincing far as I am concerned, but there is certainly a determined pattern to it.

What exactly do you mean dangerous and unconvincing?

I wonder what percentage of Muslims literally believes or at least claims in the more eccentric claims of the doctrine, such as that babies are born Muslim; that Adam existed and was a Muslim; or that Allah exists literally.

All Muslims believe that. One cannot be a Muslim unless they believe those.

 

[LuisDantas]

If you look at Islam from an Islamic perspective, all those that submitted to Allah in previous times in accord to His commands, they are Muslims. It's when a new Prophet was sent, which they refused to accept, that their beliefs and worship became null as they refused the new commands of God, ie to follow the new messenger.

And Islam is the way or the commands that God sets for us, so it is not confined to this life or world and not confined to just humans.

So it seems that you agree with my sentiment. That perspective is not lacking in internal coherence. It most certainly "knows what it wants", it is clear and decisive.

What exactly do you mean dangerous and unconvincing?

I so wish I could know in which spirit you ask that question. For instance, how much of a guess of what I mean do you have already?

In any case, it is dangerous because it is dogmatic, unquestioning and summarily repeals any attempts at questioning and clarifications. It relies entirely in the dogma that Allah exists and people must follow His Prophets. And right there, it faces a serious problem, in that people are not consistently aware of the existence of any deity, much less in instinctive attunement to the teachings of any of the traditional Islamic Prophets. Yet, for the perspective to be sound, it would need such instinctive knowledge and attunement to be a matter of course.

As it is, there is little choice for those who have that perspective but to disregard and discourage the expression of those who feel differently. Whether that is due to any flaws of the disagreers themselves or perhaps of this Orthodox perspective I describe I will leave as a hanging question for now.

All Muslims believe that. One cannot be a Muslim unless they believe those.

I feared that to be the correct answer. That is too bad for all of us, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

 

[Gharib]

I believe Islam is the most truthful Abrahamic religion in terms of how it was originally. Islamic beliefs are nice as well. Yet if everyone was born muslim & all the original humans were muslim, its hard to believe that all these other faiths could have even sprung up.

That concept of everyone being Muslim only applies till one reaches the age of puberty, which is Islam is adulthood. Once we become adults we either stay on that 'natural disposition' or we change and believe something else.

I will give a couple of examples. Our Prophet has foretold that someone who we will/do call Imam Mahdi will appear. In the meantime he has also said that many people will falsely claim the title until the real one will appear after them. And we see this happening. We are supposed to follow this leader as he will be upon true guidance from Allah (not through direct revelation). There are many people who have claimed this title as foretold, but since they are the false ones, they have invented false concepts and belief which are not Islamic and thus those who are ignorant of the teachings of Islam they follow these people (they are always a minority). Yet our Prophet has said always follow the majority as they will never agree upon what is wrong/false.

The second example which you may understand better is the political parties within a country. They all want democracy or whatever, yet there are many different political parties. If you apply the saying of our Prophet about following the majority, when one party wins by having the majority of votes, they are the legal representatives of that country, yet there are still people who follow the other parties that lost and which were/are a minority.

This is how you get other faiths into existence. If you look at most religions they all have some common aspects, because they all stem from one, however, through time they changed and changed so much that they share very little things.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

What's the source of that phrase? I'd like to write it down with my other quotes

Surah Al-Kafirun

 

[Kirran]

Surah Al-Kafirun

109:1-6, fantastic, thanks.

 

[Kirran]

Having read more about that particular set of ayahs, I see that the majority of Islamic scholars interpret it as encouraging Muslims to hold all non-believers in disgust, when looked at in context. This was during Muhammad's problems with the people of Quraysh. He'd incited their anger through cursing their gods and saying their forefathers had burnt in hellfire for not following Islam.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

1 - Islam offers to humanity perverted idea of God
Because God is the God of Islam in a weak man used to defend him
2. The idea of Jihad in Islam is intended
3. Islam is based on a myth that the Qur'an came down from heaven
And he came down from the board saved in the sky
4. Each is written in the Koran is Moved from previous religions
5. Mohammed message could not be substantiated
6. Mohammed message based on fear and the sword

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

In all pagan religions Judaism, Christianity and also
There is no concept or education ( human enemy of God )
Only in Islam we find this concept
Islam considers the human race enemies of God
Only Muslims are not the enemies of God

 

[Looncall]

There is no faith that predates Islam. We do not believe or accept that there was something else prior to Islam and that it was invented after. We believe Prophet Adam, the first human on earth was sent upon the Islamic monotheism of today and called his family to worship Allah. This is going back at least some couple of hundred thousand years ago.

Each nation/tribe was sent a Prophet, who all called their people upon the Islamic monotheism and had very similar practices as we do. He sent Ishmael to the Arabs and stopped sending Prophets to them until Muhammed came with the final message which was for all of humanity unlike the message of previous Prophets which was for a particular tribe or nation. In between Ishmael and Muhammed, Allah sent Prophet after Prophet to the descendants of Abraham's second child, Isaac who are the Jews.

Muslims sure are arrogant, aren't they?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Having read more about that particular set of ayahs, I see that the majority of Islamic scholars interpret it as encouraging Muslims to hold all non-believers in disgust, when looked at in context. This was during Muhammad's problems with the people of Quraysh. He'd incited their anger through cursing their gods and saying their forefathers had burnt in hellfire for not following Islam.

I disagree.
The ayaat of Surah Al-Kafirun is to disassociate a muslim from the idolworshippers and the trinitarian christians.
It means we will never worship the idols of polytheists and the ones(Holy spirit/angel gabriel, & jesus pbuh) worshipped by Trinitarians.

 

[Kirran]

I disagree.
The ayaat of Surah Al-Kafirun is to disassociate a muslim from the idolworshippers and the trinitarian christians.
It means we will never worship the idols of polytheists and the ones(Holy spirit/angel gabriel, & jesus pbuh) worshipped by Trinitarians.

Does it not also say that Christians will never become Muslims?

And fair enough, this was just what I found recorded to be the mainstream interpretation on WikiIslam.

 

[Looncall]

No, not inconsequential, but if somebody disagrees with an aspect of your beliefs, based on their own worldview's alternative foundations, then that's just that. I see no reason a Muslim would need to change their beliefs here.

What are they to do when their beliefs turn out to be factually false?
The Adam and Eve myth is an example.

 

[Kirran]

What are they to do when their beliefs turn out to be factually false?
The Adam and Eve myth is an example.

I don't believe there'll be some 'moment' when that occurs.

Adam and Eve can be accommodated within evolutionism. God could have sent the souls of Adam and Eve down into physical forms which were previously animals - cue the Upper Paleolithic.

 

[Looncall]

I don't believe there'll be some 'moment' when that occurs.

Adam and Eve can be accommodated within evolutionism. God could have sent the souls of Adam and Eve down into physical forms which were previously animals - cue the Upper Paleolithic.

... the intellectual tapdancing begins. That is not what the scriptures say.