Why Brussels is filled with technocrats

[Estro Felino]

I would like to ask you: who is Draghi?
Why is he invited to Brussels to say these things as if we needed his opinion?
What is he?
Who elected him?
Who the helmet is he?

Is he a commissioner?
NO. So what is he doing in Brussels? It's your country...so tell me.

Mario Draghi outlines his plan to make Europe more competitive

The continent needs investment on a par with the Marshall Plan and a lot more innovation, says the former central banker

www.economist.com

Merci Beaucoup

 

[Estro Felino]

Mario Draghi’s plan to fix a broken Europe already looks impossible

The Draghi report is full of good intentions to mend a continent losing its way. But while the vision is bold, the politics are practically impossible.

www.politico.eu

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

my debate with @TagliatelliMonster

I don't remember being asked if I was interested in this.
Which, btw, is in violation with the subforum rules:

-Before starting a debate thread, get the other person's agreement to have a one-on-one debate first, either through a private message, or through agreement in another thread. Do not start a debate thread to call another member out.

One-on-One Debate Rules

The rules for this forum are pretty self-explanatory but here are a few points. -Before starting a debate thread, get the other person's agreement to have a one-on-one debate first, either through a private message, or through agreement in another thread. Do not start a debate thread to call...

www.religiousforums.com

And furthermore, you're not even making an argument here. You're just asking questions.
Is this supposed to be a debate, or an interrogation?

Salut, cher monsieur.

For the record: I'm Flemish. So you can stop with the french, eventhough I'm bilangual.

I would like to ask you: who is Draghi?

I wouldn't have a clue without looking it up.

Why is he invited to Brussels to say these things as if we needed his opinion?

I have no idea.

What is he?

Dunno

Who elected him?

Dunno

Who the helmet is he?

Dunno

Is he a commissioner?

Dunno

NO. So what is he doing in Brussels? It's your country...so tell me.

Dunno

Mario Draghi outlines his plan to make Europe more competitive

The continent needs investment on a par with the Marshall Plan and a lot more innovation, says the former central banker

www.economist.com

That's behind a paywall. From the few sentences I can read, he seems to be some kind of retired economist.

So what?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Mario Draghi’s plan to fix a broken Europe already looks impossible

The Draghi report is full of good intentions to mend a continent losing its way. But while the vision is bold, the politics are practically impossible.

www.politico.eu

So what's your argument? Do you have a point to make?
Then make it.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't remember being asked if I was interested in this.
Which, btw, is in violation with the subforum rules:

-Before starting a debate thread, get the other person's agreement to have a one-on-one debate first, either through a private message, or through agreement in another thread. Do not start a debate thread to call another member out.

I guess it was implicit.
You and I were discussing technocrats...and you told me it wasn't the topic of the thread.
So I started one.
Well...if you don't want to discuss... I'll ask the staff to move it to the European Politics thread.
It was a misunderstanding, then.

Tell it then explicitly then.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I guess it was implicit.
You and I were discussing technocrats...and you told me it wasn't the topic of the thread.
So I started one.
Well...if you don't want to discuss... I'll ask the staff to move it to the European Politics thread.
It was a misunderstanding, then.

Tell it then explicitly then.

I still have no clue what it is that you wish to debate.

Your opening post didn't contain an argument or statement. It was just a bunch of questions.

As I said: make your argument already and we'll see where it goes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Excuse me: it's you who have to give your consent to our One-On-One Debate.

How do you expect me to do that if I don't even know what it is that you wish to debate exactly?

So in the next post, be clear and non-ambiguous or we are done here.
I'm assuming you wish to "debate" something concerning this Draghi fellow?
Be clear. In this thread, more so then ever, you will be required to pick a single topic, clearly formulate your position and stick to it.

 

[Estro Felino]

How do you expect me to do that if I don't even know what it is that you wish to debate exactly?

So in the next post, be clear and non-ambiguous or we are done here.
I'm assuming you wish to "debate" something concerning this Draghi fellow?
Be clear. In this thread, more so then ever, you will be required to pick a single topic, clearly formulate your position and stick to it.

Yes.
I want to debate why technocrats like Draghi are allowed into EU institutions.
That is, their role.
I guess the topic is absolutely clear, so you owe me an answer. Yes, or no.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes.
I want to debate why technocrats like Draghi are allowed into EU institutions.
That is, their role.
I guess the topic is absolutely clear, so you owe me an answer. Yes, or no.

Ok, make your argument.

Explain the Draghi situation and explain why you think it is a problem.
Meanwhile, I will read up on it also.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ok, make your argument.

Explain the Draghi situation and explain why you think it is a problem.
Meanwhile, I will read up on it also.

The EU is an institution that is supposed to be democratic.
Draghi was elected by nobody.
He was a former ECB president, but not any more. Now it's Lagarde the president.

I would like to know why Von der Leyen invited him to Brussels, as if we needed his opinion. He's nobody.

The topic is very, very clear.
My questions to you are:
1) What do you think of Draghi?
2) Why was he invited to the EU?
3) Why is he always around, instead of retiring himself?

Thank you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The EU is an institution that is supposed to be democratic.
Draghi was elected by nobody.
He was a former ECB president, but not any more. Now it's Lagarde the president.

I would like to know why Von der Leyen invited him to Brussels, as if we needed his opinion. He's nobody.

He was commissioned to make a report about the economic situation of Europe and the future thereof, primarily in context of competitiveness and keeping up with large industrial blocks like China.

I wouldn't exactly call him a "nobody" considering his CV.... He's an expert in this field.
Governments do this all the time... Elected officials often do not have the required expertise to do such things, or their expertise isn't as good as others who weren't on the ballot.

For example.....................
Take the whole covid situation. The elected officials aren't medical experts. So they commission third party medical experts to come up with analysis / reports of the situation and bring their recommendations of how to handle them. Do you complain about such as well? I sure don't. I'ld much rather have politicians being advised by third party experts so that they can make informed policy decisions.

I will not be arguing with youtube videos. You may post links as references if you want, but make your arguments in your own words.

1) What do you think of Draghi?

I don't have any particular opinion on the man.
I understand he was PM in some kind of emergency government in Italy. Perhaps you didn't like that and this is where your resentment comes from? Some kind of personal beef?

2) Why was he invited to the EU?

Explained above. He's there as an economic expert, commissioned to write up a report concerning his field of expertise. Not unlike how medical experts were commissioned to assess the covid situation.

3) Why is he always around, instead of retiring himself?

"always"?

The topic here is the current report he drafted.
Why is he there? Because he was asked to, for his expertise, and he accepted.

 

[Estro Felino]

He was commissioned to make a report about the economic situation of Europe and the future thereof, primarily in context of competitiveness and keeping up with large industrial blocks like China.

I wouldn't exactly call him a "nobody" considering his CV.... He's an expert in this field.
Governments do this all the time... Elected officials often do not have the required expertise to do such things, or their expertise isn't as good as others who weren't on the ballot.

For example.....................
Take the whole covid situation. The elected officials aren't medical experts. So they commission third party medical experts to come up with analysis / reports of the situation and bring their recommendations of how to handle them. Do you complain about such as well? I sure don't. I'ld much rather have politicians being advised by third party experts so that they can make informed policy decisions.



I will not be arguing with youtube videos. You may post links as references if you want, but make your arguments in your own words.



I don't have any particular opinion on the man.
I understand he was PM in some kind of emergency government in Italy. Perhaps you didn't like that and this is where your resentment comes from? Some kind of personal beef?

That was irrelevant.
He is a Goldman Sachs banker that became ECB President.
But he's always around.

Explained above. He's there as an economic expert, commissioned to write up a report concerning his field of expertise. Not unlike how medical experts were commissioned to assess the covid situation.

Excellent. You gave the perfect definition of technocracy without even willing it.
Technocracy is relying on the alleged "experts"' opinion, instead of relying on the economic program drafted by elected politicians.
Politicians elected by the European people.
I detest technocracy. It is undemocratic.

"always"?

The topic here is the current report he drafted.
Why is he there? Because he was asked to, for his expertise, and he accepted.

Knowing Von de Leyen's preferences about the technocratic élites, it doesn't surprise me.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That was irrelevant.
He is a Goldman Sachs banker that became ECB President.
But he's always around.

If you are not going to responds to the points made / answers given, this will be over really quick.

Excellent. You gave the perfect definition of technocracy without even willing it.
Technocracy is relying on the alleged "experts"' opinion, instead of relying on the economic program drafted by elected politicians.
Politicians elected by the European people.
I detest technocracy. It is undemocratic.

No. Technocracy is when those people are put in power with decision making capabilities.
The elected officials in the EU in this case are under no obligation to follow his recommendations.

As I said in the paragraph that you just brushed of as "irrelevant" and thus didn't respond to, I explained this.
Every branch of government does this: commission experts in various fields to advice them. This is normal and I would even say mandatory.

Again I will bring up the Covid situation as an analogy.
Why wouldn't elected officials (who don't have relevant expertise) commission medical experts to advice them on the situation?
Answer that question.

Knowing Von de Leyen's preferences about the technocratic élites, it doesn't surprise me.

The guy is a world renown economist. Why wouldn't he be in a good position to draft such a report?
What disqualifies him, in your opinion?

 

[Estro Felino]

If you are not going to responds to the points made / answers given, this will be over really quick.

I did answer.
You explained it perfectly. But my opinion is that I don't want a technocratic EU.
I want a EU where technocrats are not appreciated.
They are not allowed into the EU institutions, because of the conflicting interests.
And the EU must serve the commoners. Not the banking and the financial élites.

No. Technocracy is when those people are put in power with decision making capabilities.
The elected officials in the EU in this case are under no obligation to follow his recommendations.

Hopefully.
But history tells me they find their recommendations binding.

As I said in the paragraph that you just brushed of as "irrelevant" and thus didn't respond to, I explained this.
Every branch of government does this: commission experts in various fields to advice them. This is normal and I would even say mandatory.

Remember that there is also the national interests as priority and that serving the élites interests may be considered either conflict of interests, or worse high treason.

Again I will bring up the Covid situation as an analogy.
Why wouldn't elected officials (who don't have relevant expertise) commission medical experts to advice them on the situation?
Answer that question.

That was an emergency state. That's totatlly different.

The guy is a world renown economist. Why wouldn't he be in a good position to draft such a report?
What disqualifies him, in your opinion?

Many things.
1) What happened in Greece
2) What he did in Italy during the nineties

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I did answer.
You explained it perfectly. But my opinion is that I don't want a technocratic EU.
I want a EU where technocrats are not appreciated.
They are not allowed into the EU institutions, because of the conflicting interests.
And the EU must serve the commoners. Not the banking and the financial élites.

But you didn't give an example of the EU being technocratic...
You gave an example of the EU consulting a third party expert on a certain subject.
Which, as I explained 3 times now, is a common practice that all branches of government do all the time.

And I wouldn't want it any other way. It's the responsible thing to do.
Imagine our governments trying to deal with the Covid situation without consulting medical experts...

It would have been a disaster.

Draghi was a technocrat when he became PM and formed an emergency government in Italy.
He is not a technocrat in this instance in the EU, where he is merely a third party expert being consulted on his field of expertise.
These are not the same things.

Hopefully.
But history tells me they find their recommendations binding.

Why "hopefully"?
Why commission a report from a third party expert if you are just going to ignore it?

I would rather hope that policy makers VERY MUCH keep into account expert reports when deciding on policy concerning those area's.
Would you have wanted governments to completely ignore the medical experts in their analysis of the covid pandemic?

Do you think that would have been better?

Remember that there is also the national interests as priority and that serving the élites interests may be considered either conflict of interests, or worse high treason.

What are you talking about?
I get the sense that you once again have a hidden topic in mind here. Or you are once again dabbling in some kind of conspiracy stuff.
With this comment, it's becoming less clear what your objection is exactly...

Do you object to governments, be it the EU or any other, consulting third party experts for advice / assessment concerning a specific topic (future economy and competitiveness, in this case)?
Or is your objection a personal beef with this Draghi fellow?

You should decide what you want to talk about and be clear and transparent about it if you wish to have an honest and open conversation. Otherwise, this is going nowhere.

That was an emergency state. That's totatlly different.

How is it "totally different"? It matters not if it was an emergency state or not. The point is that it was a thing that required policy decisions. So they brought in expertise to inform them about the thing. This happens all the time.

Let's take another example which doesn't concern an "emergency" so that you can't dodge it on such a red herring...

Let's say the army requires a renewal of certain outdated weapon systems. Don't you think they would bring in unelected third party weapons experts to advice them on the different available systems?

Let's say new energy production facilities are required. Don't you think they would bring in unelected third party energy experts to advice them on the various power plants available? The different types of modern nuclear power stations? To inform them on the benefits, disadvantages, ROI, waste policy, etc?

Do you think elected officials, by themselves, have the required expertise to make informed decisions about such matters?

Do you think every government has in its ranks elected officials which are weapons experts, nuclear physicists, quantum physicists, world renown economists, biologists, medical experts, child psychologists, etc etc etc etc who can make informed decisions about subjects pertaining to these fields without consulting third party experts????

Don't forget to answer the questions.

Many things.
1) What happened in Greece
2) What he did in Italy during the nineties

Ok. Two questions:

1. What about these two points disqualifies him? Be specific.

2. So is this also you acknowledging that indeed, you have no problem with governments consulting unelected third party experts to inform their policy decisions, but that your problem is a personal beef with this Draghi dude?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Owkay then.....

Looks like this "debate" is already over.
So disappointing. Feels like I didn't even get a proper argument to begin with.
Just half an interrogation and some bare statements.

Oh well.