Why Creation by an Omnipotent, Omniscient Deity Is Even More Improbable than Pure Chance

[Subduction Zone]

Please!
It would only make God eternal….physical matter had a beginning.

Let's say that it did. If time began when the universe began then the universe would be "eternal" too. And worse yet, the math of the Big Bang also is said to predict multiverses. That cosmos appears to be "eternal".

 

[Heyo]

Please!
It would only make God eternal….physical matter had a beginning.

Another contradiction, this time with

Science has already this question… ‘Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.” IOW, energy in one form or another has always existed.

Has energy always existed or did it have a beginning?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you have proof….?

“Do you have proof” that the mindless processes of evolution, which have created numerous species, have created all life? Or that life originated through natural methods?
No.

But you’re willing to believe / claim that, aren’t you?

Yet you want to hold me to a higher standard?

 

[sun rise]

Intention merely adds another layer of infinite possibilities when it is ascribed to an omnimax god: why this specific intention, and why precisely in the way it happened?

I suppose an answer within a theistic framework could be to acknowledge mystery in how the deity in question operated, or to simply say "I don't know." But then the argument for a deity wouldn't be logically necessary to anyone but those already inclined to believe in the first place.

I tend to avoid quoting but in this case I quote Meher Baba:

Q. Why did God create all this?


Baba: He did not create it. It started automatically. First there was God and nothing else. In God was everything: experience, knowledge, power and existence. But he had no consciousness that he was God. All this bother and headache you see around you is to gain that consciousness.

 

[Mock Turtle]

And what if, having eliminated all possibilities, nothing is left?

I doubt that will happen, given that the most probable will usually surface as being the most likely explanation, but if such does occur then perhaps we just have to wait for further knowledge to arrive. Or, as in the case of existence, hope such arrives eventually.

PS The Holmes quote I think mentions impossibilities rather than possibilities though.

 

[ChristineM]

So you don’t think “everything “ would be a closed system?
How do you arrive at that conclusion?

I have already stated that it is arguable whether the universe is open or closed. It actually measures flat to 5 decimal places indicting, at least to the current accuracy that the universe is flat therefore infinite. How can an infinite volume be closed?

And still you have not provided any evidence to back up your statement.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Another contradiction, this time with

Has energy always existed or did it have a beginning?

Again, no contradiction.
I’m sure you know the difference between matter and energy, right?

 

[ChristineM]

“Do you have proof” that the mindless processes of evolution, which have created numerous species, have created all life. Or that life originated through natural methods?
No.

But you’re willing to believe / claim that, aren’t you?

Yet you want to hold me to a higher standard?

Why are you trying to shift the oness?

There is considerable evidence, verified by several fields of science that evolution is happening, one of those fields is genetics and dna does not lie, ask any prisoner convicted on dna evidence. It is being observed happening, (one example, the langway bent toed gecko), there are many more

Or perhaps you are talking of abiogenesis, of which there is no evidence No scientist claims abiogenesis is how life happened, what they do say is it is the most plausible given conditions at that time.

I simply would like younto provide falsifiable evidence for your claim, if you cannot do it then please don't blame me for your failure

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There is considerable evidence, verified by several fields of science that evolution is happening….

Yes, I agree. That’s what i stated, about species appearing. Did you not read that?

But the claim that mindless processes created the first life forms, originating the phyla & classes to which these species belong, is not based on proof.

 

[Heyo]

Again, no contradiction.
I’m sure you know the difference between matter and energy, right?

There is no difference. E= mc².

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, I agree. That’s what i stated, about species appearing. Did you not read that?

But the claim that mindless processes created the first life forms, originating the phyla & classes to which these species belong, is not based on proof.

Nor is god did it. So what now?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Scientists say….[abiogenesis] is the most plausible [explanation] given conditions at that time.

What?

What “given conditions” existing “at that time” make abiogenesis a more plausible explanation?

Conditions today would be more fitting. But even in laboratory-controlled environments, we find nothing of the sort occurring.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Nor is god did it. So what now?

To claim God created it, is more reasonable.

Everywhere we look, there is interactive, complex design within and between living systems.

Through trial and experience, we know of only one source that creates functional systems de novo, and that’s intelligence.

So it is more reasonable, based on what we know.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There is no difference. E= mc².

?
Me thinks you’re just being contrary and argumentative now. There’s a name for it….

Yes energy and matter are related, matter is formed from energy. All matter is (a form of) energy, but not all energy is matter. Matter has mass & it takes up space / has volume.
Energy (when not in material form) doesn’t.

Energy is everywhere; matter isn’t.

And I’m done.

 

[ChristineM]

What?

What “given conditions” existing “at that time” make abiogenesis a more plausible explanation?

Conditions today would be more fitting. But even in laboratory-controlled environments, we find nothing of the sort occurring.

Chemical mix, temperature, atmosphere etc. Im not a phd and haven't studied the conditions

No.they wouldn't. And if you care to do s little basic research you will see that life has been created and in several laboratories in different ways. It seems ctesting life is fairly easy given the right conditions

 

[ChristineM]

To claim God created it, is more reasonable.

Is it, do you have proof a creator god exist to do the crrating,? Nope.

Everywhere we look, there is interactive, complex design within and between living systems.

Time is s wonderful designer

Through trial and experience, we know of only one source that creates functional systems de novo, and that’s intelligence.

Bull, we know no such thing. Some people assume because it massages their sensibilities but therebis absolutely no evidence to their claim, on the contrary, abiogenesis is the best guess.

So it is more reasonable, based on what we know.

You do not know, you believe, there is considerable difference

 

[ChristineM]

Again, no contradiction.
I’m sure you know the difference between matter and energy, right?

So what is the difference?

Oh and that would be mass

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Bear in mind I'm talking about how humans feel about themselves, not how some god feels about them. My point is that humans see themselves as more important that anything else in the universe. We see our own attributes as superior to those of the rest of the animal world because they are ours. Understandable maybe, but not necessarily true.
Yah, all that only makes sense to a believer. To me it's just flows from our superiority complex. We think we are hot sh*t, so of course god thinks so too. No offense intended.

Seems to me that Adam saw himself as more important than anything else in the universe (his universe Eden).
In the Bible what Adam did was by Adam's deliberate choice. Fallen father Adam developed an ego.
Thus, sinner Adam passed down to us his acquired fallen nature, but God has mercy on us as per Ephesians 2:3-5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................... If god is energy, all energy, then the universe is created from gods substance - which would make you a pantheist. But you denied that with the explanation that god only controls the energy - which would make the universe eternal and no creation necessary.

I find at Psalms 104:30 that when God sends forth His spirit things are created.
Thus, God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic Power and Strength to create the material realm - Isaiah 40:26
Earth is eternal according to the Bible at Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5
There is intelligence in the design of the universe, thus showing a mind and with a mind there is a personality, a Person.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have already stated that it is arguable whether the universe is open or closed. It actually measures flat to 5 decimal places indicting, at least to the current accuracy that the universe is flat therefore infinite. How can an infinite volume be closed?.................

I find in the Bible No infinite closed volume because God stretches out the universe.
- Jeremiah 10:12 B; Jeremiah 32:17; Jeremiah 51:15 B; Isaiah 42:5 A; Isaiah 40:22 B.