Why designed?

[dust1n]

Chosen beforehand by an intelligent self-aware designer?

Yes -there is something in the rocks that makes it obvious to ME that they were all chosen specifically for their design and function -by referencing many other things, considering myself in relation to the rocks, etc.

In the rocks themselves alone? No. However, any given rock is not -and all rocks collectively are not -alone, and can not be alone. They can be considered alone, but that would be incomplete data. We can say rocks are just rocks -but they are not just rocks because there are not just rocks.

Though rocks may have been designed by a self-aware intelligence for a specific purpose beforehand, and there may very well be something in the rocks that should or would make it obvious at some point, it cannot become obvious without reference. It cannot become obvious if one considers the rocks alone.

We know absolutely that A purpose for rocks is that they be something we walk on.

We also know absolutely that WE did not design and purpose rocks before we existed -that we might walk on them.

We know absolutely that rocks -and even elements -CAN be designed for a specific purpose beforehand by an intelligent self-aware designer.
Some humans have done that.

We know absolutely that due to our present state, we cannot presently reference all things.

If rocks have been designed by a self-aware intelligence for a specific purpose beforehand, that would become apparent eventually -if we became able to reference enough. Even if we could not reference the designer firsthand, enough data would reveal the necessity for its existence to have produced what could be referenced.

The same would be true for the non-existence of a designer -enough data would absolutely reveal such.

The difficulty is that design decisions may be extremely far removed from results -because things can be accomplished by chain reaction.

We design rocks, but we may yet prove absolutely that there was no decision involved in the formation of rocks from the Big Bang until the first conscious decision to act upon a rock by earthly life -but that would not prove that rocks were not produced by a conscious decision to cause a chain reaction for a specific reason prior to the Big Bang.

As with anything, if only one or some had reference enough, others would still not have that reference.

Reference is gained over time and individually. Data can be shared, but not necessarily reproduced or verified by every individual, as some perfectly-accurate data refers to unusual arrangements which cannot be reproduced by individuals.

That which produces unusual arrangements exceeds the ability of individuals to reproduce them.

A purpose of a rock is to kill people when used over someone's head. Did God design this function in rocks?

 

[Etritonakin]

A purpose of a rock is to kill people when used over someone's head. Did God design this function in rocks?

No. That function is not IN rocks.

That function is IN people with DESIGNS to kill other people -and may be expressed through rocks or many other things.

God knew that people would have such designs until they got damned well tired of having them.

If they don't get it after 120 years or so... well....

 

[dust1n]

No. That function is not IN rocks.

That function is IN people with DESIGNS to kill other people -and may be expressed through rocks or many other things.

God knew that people would have such designs until they got damned well tired of having them.

If they don't get it after 120 years or so... well....

So God designed people to kill one another? And why is the function of a rock to be stepped on, isn't the function to step on things IN people with designs to step on things? Billions of rocks are never stepped on. What is their function?

 

[Etritonakin]

So God designed people to kill one another? And why is the function of a rock to be stepped on, isn't the function to step on things IN people with designs to step on things? Billions of rocks are never stepped on. What is their function?

The FUNCTION TO step on rocks is in people (or anything that can step). The FUNCTION OF rocks is to be stepped on when one PURPOSES to step on one -or if one PURPOSED rocks to be stepped on before there was anyone or anything to step on them.

Rocks CAN SERVE many PURPOSES or PERFORM many FUNCTIONS based on their attributes. Roads, foundations, buildings, raw materials for processing, etc....

Perhaps billions of worlds have yet to be stepped on -yet their purpose is to be stepped on.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

(If you think about it, that is actually true even if you do not consider an initial self-aware designer -as man has purposed to step on other worlds, and that would not be likely to cease as long as man existed.)

God designed people to design. God created creators.

People designed (premature) death and the destruction of the creation.

(God did design natural death as a means to produce many individuals using recycled resources in a limited area for the purpose of temporary experience in preparation for another experience -and as part of a means to resurrect them to that different experience)

This potential existed due to the initial nature of man and his environment -the design of which was necessary for the end result of making men gods.

It was not a pleasant experience.

They will eventually think better of it or be removed.

When they think better of it -and other such things, God will cease to limit their power to affect (and so destroy) their environment, extend their lifespan indefinitely, give them access to the universe and a body capable of controlling even cosmic events.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[dust1n]

Perhaps billions of worlds have yet to be stepped on -yet their purpose is to be stepped on.

I don't get this. Why would God create trillions of rocks for the purpose of stepping on, and then the overwhelming of them aren't going to be stepped on? Does God often design functions that never function in the way they were intended to? What's the function of quicksand?

 

[Etritonakin]

I don't get this. Why would God create trillions of rocks for the purpose of stepping on, and then the overwhelming of them aren't going to be stepped on? Does God often design functions that never function in the way they were intended to? What's the function of quicksand?

PLEASE NOTE EDITS TO LAST POST

I think it likely that you actually do get it -but perhaps don't realize it, or are just being argumentative for one or more reasons.

Anyway, the point is that rocks were intended to serve any purpose they can -and were also purposed to be stepped on.

Rather than consider rocks -consider what they -and everything else in the universe -are made from.

The purpose of the elements is anything anyone can imagine (if one can imagine beyond them, they may be able to create beyond them eventually). The reason our lifespan and power is presently limited is that imaginations can create some really messed up stuff.

 

[dust1n]

PLEASE NOTE EDITS TO LAST POST

I think it likely that you actually do get it -but perhaps don't realize it, or are just being argumentative for one or more reasons.

Anyway, the point is that rocks were intended to serve any purpose they can -and were also purposed to be stepped on.

Rather than consider rocks -consider what they -and everything else in the universe -are made from.

The purpose of the elements is anything anyone can imagine (if one can imagine beyond them, they may be able to create beyond them eventually). The reason our lifespan and power is presently limited is that imaginations can create some really messed up stuff.

"Anyway, the point is that rocks were intended to serve any purpose they can"

But when I asked if rocks were intended to kill people, you say God didn't intend for rocks to be used for this purpose. So how is it that rocks were to intended to serve any purpose they can except hitting someone with one? What about rockslides?

 

[Etritonakin]

"Anyway, the point is that rocks were intended to serve any purpose they can"

But when I asked if rocks were intended to kill people, you say God didn't intend for rocks to be used for this purpose. So how is it that rocks were to intended to serve any purpose they can except hitting someone with one? What about rockslides?

EDIT TO SECOND-TO-LAST POST:
God designed people to design. God created creators.

People designed (premature) death and the destruction of the creation.

(God did design natural death as a means to produce many individuals using recycled resources in a limited area, for the purpose of temporary experience in preparation for another experience -and as a means to resurrect them to that different experience)

******************************

"But when I asked if rocks were intended to kill people, you say God didn't intend for rocks to be used for this purpose. So how is it that rocks were to intended to serve any purpose they can except hitting someone with one? What about rockslides?"

God did not intend FOR rocks to be used to kill. God intended that rocks be used for any purpose for which they can be used. That is NOT saying God intended that rocks be used to kill.

Perhaps it is only a slight degree of separation, but an extremely important one...

God did intend for man to be able to use rocks to kill -and to be killed by rocks or any other means. That is to say.... God made man vulnerable to death by rocks wielded by others -and even by rockslides.

Man intended that rocks be used for that purpose.

EXCEPT...

When God specifically purposed that some men use rocks to kill other men.

Then God intended that men intend in obedience to use rocks to kill other men -and intended that rocks be used by men to kill other men.

In that case, God was responsible for those deaths. God directed men to do that under the first covenant for overall psychological effect and to keep a nation free of certain things -by temporarily removing the people that did them -to prepare that people for the second covenant.

You really need to not look at one instance or aspect if you are serious about understanding the overall concepts -and you really should be serious about understanding the overall concepts.

However... it might be said that God did initially intend that rocks be used to kill TEMPORARILY -but NOT that God intended for rocks to be used to kill.

They are not the same thing.

God initially intended that nobody would ever die by any means.

To that end, God allowed pretty much everybody to die by pretty much any means.

It may seem that God is a hypocrite because he tells us not to kill and then kills us all, but different things apply to man than God because of the difference between the natures of man and God.

When man kills, man kills. When God kills, God causes a temporary cessation of life which he is able to reverse.

God can intend that a rockslide kill you -because he wants you to live forever.

That is not the same as intending that a rockslide kill you.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I am wondering why some people seem to see design in thing which are very complicated.

Here is an example from my daily life:

I work as a software developer.
I help design software in a company which has been developing the same product for 10 years or so.
The software is continuously changed to try to keep up with customer demmands.

What usually happens is that the managment descides to implement some feature because some customer has requested it or because they feel some qustomers may want it in the near future.
Then the developers look at the code and try to change it to make it do more or less what was requested.
Maybe in doing so they will wrech some other functionality, but if no one is using it anymore then no one complains and the error goes unnoticed.

So after 10 years of this you end up with a big, complicated, messy code base that no one planned.
It mostly works, but there was no grand design plan.
It just happened to turn out this way.

So I am wondering why some people look at a human being and think, this big, complicated, messy bag of mostly water must have been designed to look exactly like this.

I don't see what you are saying if I am honest. You appear to be showing that something can be "designed" and yet still have problems with interference. That migh tnot be a bad description of a universe which does exactly the same thing. Also, are you saying the code looks designed but isn't?
Design can be seen anywhere. You would have to be blind not to see it. Whether you then think that is how it got to that stage is another thing entirely

 

[dust1n]

EDIT TO SECOND-TO-LAST POST:
God designed people to design. God created creators.

People designed (premature) death and the destruction of the creation.

(God did design natural death as a means to produce many individuals using recycled resources in a limited area, for the purpose of temporary experience in preparation for another experience -and as a means to resurrect them to that different experience)

******************************

"But when I asked if rocks were intended to kill people, you say God didn't intend for rocks to be used for this purpose. So how is it that rocks were to intended to serve any purpose they can except hitting someone with one? What about rockslides?"

God did not intend FOR rocks to be used to kill. God intended that rocks be used for any purpose for which they can be used. That is NOT saying God intended that rocks be used to kill.

Perhaps it is only a slight degree of separation, but an extremely important one...

God did intend for man to be able to use rocks to kill -and to be killed by rocks or any other means. That is to say.... God made man vulnerable to death by rocks wielded by others -and even by rockslides.

Man intended that rocks be used for that purpose.

EXCEPT...

When God specifically purposed that some men use rocks to kill other men.

Then God intended that men intend in obedience to use rocks to kill other men -and intended that rocks be used by men to kill other men.

In that case, God was responsible for those deaths. God directed men to do that under the first covenant for overall psychological effect and to keep a nation free of certain things -by temporarily removing the people that did them -to prepare that people for the second covenant.

You really need to not look at one instance or aspect if you are serious about understanding the overall concepts -and you really should be serious about understanding the overall concepts.

However... it might be said that God did initially intend that rocks be used to kill TEMPORARILY -but NOT that God intended for rocks to be used to kill.

They are not the same thing.

God initially intended that nobody would ever die by any means.

To that end, God allowed pretty much everybody to die by pretty much any means.

It may seem that God is a hypocrite because he tells us not to kill and then kills us all, but different things apply to man than God because of the difference between the natures of man and God.

When man kills, man kills. When God kills, God causes a temporary cessation of life which he is able to reverse.

God can intend that a rockslide kill you -because he wants you to live forever.

That is not the same as intending that a rockslide kill you.

Wow, thanks. So many things seem contradictory for me to follow. I appreciate the conversation.

 

[Robert.Evans]

So I end up with big, complicated, messy pile of papers on my desk.
I didn't design that, it just happened.

Happened from something of intelligence though - that being you.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I've always liked the example my old philosophy professor used to give of something complex that wasn't designed. He used to say, "A spider's web can be monstrously complex, but I'd hardly call the spider an intelligent designer."

Why not?

 

[Robert.Evans]

reaching with imagination to protect their theism they dont really understand to begin with.

blah, blah, blah!

Go protect your ego and luck.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Man of Faith

Two questions for you.

Lets just say the universe was designed for the sake of discussion.

Where did the elements like Carbon come from?

How did the moon form?

The same way it does now. Why must it be any different.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I don't understand the argument that because something is beautiful it must be designed since any random things can be beautiful.

And how is it random? Do you mean you see no conscious intelligence involved so clearly there wasn't any. I could say that a house just evolved because I didn't see the builder. So what? The odds and complexity of the universe say that you need intelligence involved, evolving, somehow. Are you saying it just happened, sheer luck?! That is one big faith you have.
What are these things you said you could think of that have no need of intelligence to design themselves?

 

[Etritonakin]

Wow, thanks. So many things seem contradictory for me to follow. I appreciate the conversation.

"Everything" is really big, so... that's to be expected.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes there is no god, and whatever has happened to bring us where we are now, is nothing more than evolution, simple.

One, you don't know there is no God, and two, I assume you are ignoring the universe forming in the firstplace with its already latent attributes that it needs to form unaided.

 

[dust1n]

"Everything" is really big, so... that's to be expected.

"You really need to not look at one instance or aspect if you are serious about understanding the overall concepts -and you really should be serious about understanding the overall concepts."

I guess I can't see an overall concept that is filled with things that aren't consistent.

I rather have a consistent and an incomplete view of the world, opposed to an inconsistent and complete one. I have no problem not knowing how the world works, when I clearly have nothing to go on by a single book written by guys, apparently. Thanks though.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I don't get this. Why would God create trillions of rocks for the purpose of stepping on, and then the overwhelming of them aren't going to be stepped on? Does God often design functions that never function in the way they were intended to? What's the function of quicksand?

What is the function of Man?

 

[dust1n]

What is the function of Man?

It is not evident to me that anything is a "function."

A "function" as I understand it is something allows some entity to perform some task in order to achieve some goal for the purposes of some sentient being.

We call things functions when they serve some goal or purpose on behalf of a sentient agent. A human being creates functions when they seem some goal being achieved.

I don't see any function being achieved be the overwhelming majority of matter in the universe. What is the function of Pluto? Or Eris? Or any of the 100's of dwarf planets? Are they necessary? Do they all have separate functions? Are those rocks functioned on being stepped on too, even though no one will step on them?

Perhaps if God existed he would answer any of the millions of questions I have for him. But in general, I don't mind nothing have answers to questions. The only difference have a lack of answers to questions led me to being an atheist.

As far as the function of Man? Probably the same function as earthworms? Why would do think about their individual functions?