• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why did christianity win out (from a secular / historical perspective)?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A lot of people do.

It's coined as Christian Atheism.

It involves people who like the services, the songs, the church environment , and just practice it out of tradition rather than belief.


Christian atheism - Wikipedia
Okay, I got it. Would you agree that these Christian Atheists are pretty rare? I actually knew a guy like this when I was younger. He was Agnostic, but was an extremely ethical person, and felt that attending a church regularly was the best way to find a quality wife. But other than him, I've never come across anyone else like this in real life.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Christianity is the majority religion today, and has been for 1700 years (or so).

Something has to be special about it... or not?

From the christian perspective, the answer is easy - it was god's plan all along, so of course christianity is the winner.

If you don't believe in it, then there must be other explanations. What are they?
One factor: Islam's dietary rules made it hard for Muslims to proselytize in non-Muslim areas.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Are you a Darwinist? Because what you write would simply make Christianity the fittest since they survived. Evolution isn't moral you know. So suck it up buttercup. :cool:



John
Darwinism is the description of.what occurs in nature.

To justify supernatural claims you would.need something else.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Are you a Darwinist? Because what you write would simply make Christianity the fittest since they survived. Evolution isn't moral you know. So suck it up buttercup. :cool:



John
People need to stop using the term Darwinism. The TOE today has has been upgraded from Darwin's time. Darwin didn't know anything about genetics or DNA. He had no concept of things like punctuated equilibrium. Etc., etc....
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Anyone can call themselves Christian. I'm sure there are social and political factors for the religion. Most Christians have faith in the religion as it appeals and suits them, according to its influence, and sway. Genuine believers are rarer and absolutely radical in their beliefs of it.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Darwinism is the description of.what occurs in nature.

To justify supernatural claims you would.need something else.

Right. So if I forego any argument from the supernatural, then everything is natural, such that Christianity is the fittest worldview since it's survived and thrived while others did not or are not.

Who would deny that the USA is both the most Christian of nations, and has also been the economic and scientific engine of the world, the military policeman par excellent, for a long time. Survival of the fittest I think they say. :)

What was it Mel Gibson said in The Road Warrior: "You wanna survive? You talk to me."



John
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Right. So if I forego any argument from the supernatural, then everything is natural, such that Christianity is the fittest worldview since it's survived and thrived while others did not or are not.

Who would deny that the USA is both the most Christian of nations, and has also been the economic and scientific engine of the world, the military policeman par excellent, for a long time. Survival of the fittest I think they say. :)

What was it Mel Gibson said in The Road Warrior: "You wanna survive? You talk to me."



John
With all due respect, I don't think you are quite aware of the amounts of wishful thinking and denial in there.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, I don't think you are quite aware of the amounts of wishful thinking and denial in there.

I'm fully aware that there's a tone of those things if we use your epistemological prejudice as the criteria for factuality. How cool it would be if we had a truly objective criteria for factuality; one that doesn't depend on either of our prejudices.



John
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm fully aware that there's a tone of those things if we use your epistemological prejudice as the criteria for factuality. How cool it would be if we had a truly objective criteria for factuality; one that doesn't depend on either of our prejudices.



John
Sorry, not buying that.

You can do better... You should do better, in all honesty.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Christianity is the majority religion today, and has been for 1700 years (or so).

Something has to be special about it... or not?

From the christian perspective, the answer is easy - it was god's plan all along, so of course christianity is the winner.

If you don't believe in it, then there must be other explanations. What are they?
"Christianity "

Does one mean the religion of Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah and his teachings, please, right?
Or one means the Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity invented by Paul , which has got nothing to do with Yeshua, please, right?:

"Pauline Christianity or Pauline theology (also Paulism or Paulanity),[2] otherwise referred to as Gentile Christianity or Pagan Christianity,[3] is the theology and form of Christianity which developed from the beliefs and doctrines espoused by the Hellenistic-Jewish Apostle Paul through his writings and those New Testament writings traditionally attributed to him. Paul's beliefs were rooted in the earliest Jewish Christianity, but they deviated from this Jewish Christianity in their emphasis on inclusion of the Gentiles into God's New Covenant and in his rejection of circumcision as an unnecessary token of upholding the Mosaic Law.[3][4][5]

Proto-orthodox Christianity, which is rooted in the first centuries of the history of Christianity, relies heavily on Pauline theology and beliefs and considers them to be amplifications and explanations of the teachings of Jesus. Since the 18th century, a number of scholars have proposed that Paul's writings contain teachings that are different from the original teachings of Jesus and those of the earliest Jewish Christians, as documented in the canonical gospels, early Acts, and the rest of the New Testament, such as the Epistle of James.[6]

Right?

Regards
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Okay, I got it. Would you agree that these Christian Atheists are pretty rare? I actually knew a guy like this when I was younger. He was Agnostic, but was an extremely ethical person, and felt that attending a church regularly was the best way to find a quality wife. But other than him, I've never come across anyone else like this in real life.
I think it's more common than you think.

There's a lot of people who live very secular lives, not all that devout, but still say they're Christian and they go to church out of tradition and socializing with others.

I remember so many times I went to church everybody's a devout Christian inside talking about God and all that, and then once the service is over it's like a switch gets flipped, and all of a sudden the topics quickly switch to basically football and going to the bar.

A number like the Christian label , it's like it's more of a status symbol , a brand name, but really don't care about the religion outside tradition and enjoying the services, the banter, and all that. ;O)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I remember so many times I went to church everybody's a devout Christian inside talking about God and all that, and then once the service is over it's like a switch gets flipped, and all of a sudden the topics quickly switch to basically football and going to the bar.
That's not evidence that they don't believe.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That's not evidence that they don't believe.
No. But its an indication that nothing is really being taken all that seriously.

That kind of stuff used to upset me quite a bit when I was a Christian, because I was exceedingly devout, and people would often tell me I talk way too much of God and religion and all that because for a long time that was the prime nexus of my existence at the time.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I remember so many times I went to church everybody's a devout Christian inside talking about God and all that, and then once the service is over it's like a switch gets flipped, and all of a sudden the topics quickly switch to basically football and going to the bar.

During the Exodus from Egypt, Moses slaughtered a bull (which in Egypt represented deity) and sprinkled the blood on the clothing of the Israelites as they passed by. These garments became Israel's ornaments/symbols of salvation. Later in the narrative Israel takes to worshiping the bull's son/calf (the golden idol) such that Moses has them remove their ornaments of salvation for having engaged the sin of idolatry.

The story takes a peculiar turn when rather than Israel losing out on their salvation (by removing the ornaments of salvation) Moses takes the bull's calf (the golden idol) and grinds it down into power which he mixes with water producing colloidal gold that he has Israel use to wash their cloths, utensils, and which they drink and cook with.

It turns out that Israel's idolatry was merely in worshiping the intact manifestation of a divine son/calf. Drinking the blood of a son of a god does far more than merely mark the outer, ostentatious, false claim to salvation. Whereas the pretentious outer symbol can be removed, taken from you (so that you lose your salvation when you leave the church), the latter becomes part of you and can't be removed or taken from you.

The purpose of the tefillin is that the teaching of God may be in your mouth. For that reason they must be made מן המותר בפיך, from substances permitted to your mouth.​
Collected Writings III, p.152, Rabbi Samson Hirsch.​
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, ye have no secure salvific life in you.​
John 6:53.​

Which is all a long-winded and winding way of saying those people who drank Jesus' blood in the church (swallowing down his words and deeds as presented by the pastor/chef) and then went out and profaned themselves talking football, women, and what have you, later urinated colloidal gold that should one of the unbelieving dare to drink, would garner them free entrance through the Pearly Gates no matter how profane and sinful they were before lifting the cup to the lip.

Strange indeed is the mystery of salvation's power over iniquity. :)



John
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there must be other explanations. What are they?
Christianity has enjoyed the greatest marketing campaign in the history of man, nearly two millennia long and still going. Paul was the first to market Jesus in earnest, then Constantine at the point of a sword. The Catholic church arose and its chapels then basilicas and cathedrals began cropping up everywhere like a fast-food franchise to promulgate the religion. Waves of crusaders, missionaries, conquistadores and inquisitions spread and enforced the faith. The Gideons put a Bible in every hotel room. Schools taught religion and led students in prayer. With broadcast media, the televangelists began marketing Jesus. There was an ad for Jesus in the last Superbowl.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Christianity has enjoyed the greatest marketing campaign in the history of man, nearly two millennia long and still going. Paul was the first to market Jesus in earnest, then Constantine at the point of a sword. The Catholic church arose and its chapels then basilicas and cathedrals began cropping up everywhere like a fast-food franchise to promulgate the religion. Waves of crusaders, missionaries, conquistadores and inquisitions spread and enforced the faith. The Gideons put a Bible in every hotel room. Schools taught religion and led students in prayer. With broadcast media, the televangelists began marketing Jesus. There was an ad for Jesus in the last Superbowl.

Survival of the fittest in a historical Petri dish. Look and learn grasshopppah. :). . . Snatch the Gideon's from my hand it it will be time for you to leave enlightened.



John
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The most recent Hardcore History series gets into the Christianization of Scandinavia. It's super long, so I wouldn't insist that anyone read the whole thing, but it touches on some of the thought processes that would have been going on in the minds of heads of state when considering whether to accept Christianity:

If they accept it:
  • They get instant alliances with other Christian kingdoms.
  • They get to choose their bishops, who will have a major influence on the country.
  • The religion reinforces that kings are appointed by God, which can be useful for reinforcing their hold on power.
If they refuse:
  • Christian kings will refuse requests for diplomatic marriages (since they won't marry off their daughters to unbaptized rulers).
  • An underground Christian movement will develop in their country anyway, which could end up being a destabilizing force (e.g. they could support Christian rivals for the throne).
... so it became pretty rational for realpolitik reasons to accept Christianity as the state religion, which then meant that Christianity would be imposed on the people and other religions would get repressed.
 
Top