why did they want to crucify jesus

[Sabour]

Please teach me who is Allah; Does he has a form? does he has a character?

There are many verses talking about Allah in Quraan and there are 99 attributes for him. But to make it a simple introduction, I would quote chapter 112

1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

 

[free spirit]

There are many verses talking about Allah in Quraan and there are 99 attributes for him. But to make it a simple introduction, I would quote chapter 112

1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

Can you be more specific; Is Allah is name or who he is?

 

[Sabour]

Can you be more specific; Is Allah is name or who he is?

Allah in Arabic means God.

Christian arabs say Allah too.

 

[gnostic]

So I was searching the internet for an answer to this question.

Why there was a need to crucify Jesus peace be upon him.

Couldn't they just have just killed him.


According to what I found, it all begins with Jesus peace be upon him saying that he came to fulfill the law.

According to the law, everything that is crucified would be cursed.

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

So being able to crucify Jesus peace be upon him would disprove who he was because if he did come to fulfill the law, he can't be cursed by that law.

This is a video that explains it

Thoughts please on that and especially on why do you believe they wanted to crucify Jesus.

It has something to do with "sacrifice", one-answer.

In the old days, one of several reasons for sacrificing animals, was to seek forgiveness from God for their sins. Jews no longer offer animal sacrifices anymore because the Romans had destroyed their temple, in 70 CE.

But for the Christians, Jesus' crucifixion was mean to be the ultimate sacrifice, to forgive everyone's sins, particularly those who choose to follow him, hence to become Christians, in order to prepare the ways for people's salvation, in this case, for resurrection and the afterlife.

According to Christian teachings, Jesus had to die, in order for him to be "resurrected". And the resurrection was meant to be one of the many miracles that took place.

That's how I see or interpret what Christians believe in.

Did the crucifixion of Jesus take place?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. The only sources to recorded the events about Jesus in the 1st century CE, come from the gospels and from some letters.

The Qur'an and anything else written by Muslims about Jesus are far too removed by events, to be taken seriously. The Qur'an recording of what we call biblical events, is just a mishmash of collective narratives that don't make sense.

 

[free spirit]

Allah in Arabic means God.

Christian arabs say Allah too.

Therefore "Allah" is His profession, Has Allah got a name? What about his character: is He loving, forgiving, does he acts as father to humanity, is he holy and does he requires holiness from his people, or is he capricious? What is he like to you?

 

[metis]

James and the 12 apostles continued to offer animal sacrifices many years after the death of Yeshua. This should say something regarding the concept of "final sacrifice". This concept was created by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, an associate of Paul. Not one of the twelve.

I have no doubt that it was a theology that evolved, and I tend to think that Paul had a lot to do with that but probably wasn't the only one. When dealing with the formation of theological traditions, it's not always easy to know exactly when, why, and whom begin any specific tradition.

 

[JM2C]

Allah in Arabic means God.

Christian arabs say Allah too.

What is the difference between Christians and Muslims?

 

[Simplelogic]

I have no doubt that it was a theology that evolved, and I tend to think that Paul had a lot to do with that but probably wasn't the only one. When dealing with the formation of theological traditions, it's not always easy to know exactly when, why, and whom begin any specific tradition.

I agree in general. However, in this case, we have some facts to go.

1. Jesus taught others to offer animal sacrifices
2. He also taught that "every jot and tittle" would not pass from the Torah till heaven and earth pass away.
3. James (Jesus' brother and leader of the Nazarene sect) was still offering animal sacrifices many years after the death of Jesus.
4. None of the twelve apostles even allude to sacrifices being replaced by Jesus' death and claimed resurrection.
5. Only Paul's letters created the concept of an "end all sacrifice". Whether Paul's epistles, or the letter to the Hebrews (either written by Paul or Barnabas).

So I do believe that there is no logical reason to believe that this tradition was started by Jesus or his chosen apostles.

 

[metis]

I agree in general. However, in this case, we have some facts to go.

1. Jesus taught others to offer animal sacrifices
2. He also taught that "every jot and tittle" would not pass from the Torah till heaven and earth pass away.
3. James (Jesus' brother and leader of the Nazarene sect) was still offering animal sacrifices many years after the death of Jesus.
4. None of the twelve apostles even allude to sacrifices being replaced by Jesus' death and claimed resurrection.
5. Only Paul's letters created the concept of an "end all sacrifice". Whether Paul's epistles, or the letter to the Hebrews (either written by Paul or Barnabas).

So I do believe that there is no logical reason to believe that this tradition was started by Jesus or his chosen apostles.

However:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

5:38: “’an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’… offer no resistance.”

8:22: “Jesus told him, ‘Follow me, and let the dead bury the dead.”

21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”


Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”


John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”


Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”



Now, since I'm about as far from being a literalist as you're likely to run across, I certainly am not going to the extreme of saying that these are accurate, but they are there in black and white.

 

[Simplelogic]

However:

Matthew 5:31-32: “everyone who divorces his wife… forces her to commit adultery.”

I believe i've seen you post this list before. I thought I had taken the time to refute your cherry picked verses from the gospels. Nope, none of the verses you quoted from Yeshua have anything to do with detracting from the Torah. Actually, if one examines them closer, they actually make the opposite case…every time. I won't even address the rest of the bogus verses you mentioned because they have nothing to do with Yeshua or the apostles. I will address Matt 5 first because I don't currently have the time to address each verse right now.


Matt 5 rebuttal:

If you read the whole verse, you will find that Yeshua was upholding the letter of the law which 1st century Pharisees had rejected. Let me explain:

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matt 5:31-32

Two things are at play here.

First, the concept "writing a divorcement" or "certificate of divorce" was being ignored in the first century by many. Yeshua was reiterating the importance of it.

Second, fornication is and always was the legal grounds for a divorce to take place. The Torah says that in order for a man to give a certificate of divorce, there must be some type of uncleanness in her to warrant it. The term "uncleanness" was a debated concept in the first century. Many Pharisees interpreted this to mean any issue whatsoever! Some Rabbi's were even teaching that men had grounds for divorce if a women wasn't keep the house clean enough or cooking well enough!!

So lets look at the Torah now:

1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. Deut 24:1

What do you know? Yeshua was reiterating two Torah principals which were being ignored in the first century. First century Rabbinic literature actually prove this to be true btw! This is another classic case of verse plucking Yeshua's words and isolating them in order to read Paul's law-abolishing concepts back in Yeshua. Yeshua called Israel back to true Torah, which had been replaced by man made traditions and false interpretations which detract from the Torah. I will address each of the other verses you cited in due time. You will find the same conclusion in each case.

 

[metis]

I believe i've seen you post this list before. I thought I had taken the time to refute your cherry picked verses from the gospels. Nope, none of the verses you quoted from Yeshua have anything to do with detracting from the Torah...

Thus simply is not true, but go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe as I simply have no desire to deal with someone ignoring what most people would find quite clear, and I do believe "released from the law" and "end of the law", plus other verses, are really quite clear.

 

[Simplelogic]

Thus simply is not true, but go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe as I simply have no desire to deal with someone ignoring what most people would find quite clear, and I do believe "the law ends..." is plenty clear.

I will continue to prove that this doctrine was concocted by Paul himself. I will also continue to prove that Yeshua himself calls out Paul for these doctrines and exposes him. Here are a some samples of Yeshua's words on the Torah:

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?4For God commanded (Torah), saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:1-9

Yeshua was upholding the stoning commandment which the Pharisees had rejected. They were allowing people to dishonor their parents and give their resources to other places.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter (Torah).22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matt 7: 21-23

Yeshua says there will be many miracle workers who claim they know him, but will be lawless. Yeshua says these people will be rejected.

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

Yeshua says plainly that the entire Torah will be in effect until "heaven and earth pass away". He is paraphrasing the prophet Jeremiah here.

 

[metis]

I will continue to prove that this doctrine was concocted by Paul himself. I will also continue to prove that Yeshua himself calls out Paul for these doctrines and exposes him. Here are a some samples of Yeshua's words on the Torah:

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?4For God commanded (Torah), saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:1-9

Yeshua was upholding the stoning commandment which the Pharisees had rejected. They were allowing people to dishonor their parents and give their resources to other places.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter (Torah).22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matt 7: 21-23

Yeshua says there will be many miracle workers who claim they know him, but will be lawless. Yeshua says these people will be rejected.

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

Yeshua says plainly that the entire Torah will be in effect until "heaven and earth pass away". He is paraphrasing the prophet Jeremiah here.

Again, to repeat, I have no intention of getting involved in any discussion with you that involves you ignoring what was written but then expecting me and others to somehow believe your interpretation of the verses that you "cherry pick".

 

[Simplelogic]

If you want to see one of the places where Yeshua exposes Paul see:

Jesus exposes Paul as a false apostle | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Simplelogic]

Again, to repeat, I have no intention of getting involved in any discussion with you that involves you ignoring what was written but then expecting me and others to somehow believe your interpretation of the verses that you "cherry pick".

Ok then. You quote a small verse and exploit it. I give the context of the verse and I am accused of cherry picking? I won't go any farther with you and your dismissive logic. Let me know if you ever want to actually debate the words of Yeshua in context. You know where to find me.

 

[metis]

Ok then. You quote a small verse and exploit it. I give the context of the verse and I am accused of cherry picking? I won't go any farther with you and your dismissive logic. Let me know if you ever want to actually debate the words of Yeshua in context. You know where to find me.

I taught Christian theology for 14 years, so I really don't need or want any explanation from somehow who simply ignores what is written so he can believe in what he wants to believe.

In order to have any serious "debate", one can have and defend their opinions, but they are not to have their own "facts", so yes, I'm going to be "dismissive" of any such intellectual dishonesty.

This is my last post on this with you, so maybe try and impress someone else, OK.

 

[Simplelogic]

I taught Christian theology for 14 years, so I really don't need or want any explanation from somehow who simply ignores what is written so he can believe in what he wants to believe.

In order to have any serious "debate", one can have and defend their opinions, but they are not to have their own "facts", so yes, I'm going to be "dismissive" of any intellectual dishonesty.

This is my last post on this with you, so maybe try and impress someone else, OK.

You charge me with dishonesty towards the text, yet you don't back up your claim. What a joke. Goodbye.

 

[free spirit]

I will continue to prove that this doctrine was concocted by Paul himself. I will also continue to prove that Yeshua himself calls out Paul for these doctrines and exposes him. Here are a some samples of Yeshua's words on the Torah:

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?4For God commanded (Torah), saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt 15:1-9

Yeshua was upholding the stoning commandment which the Pharisees had rejected. They were allowing people to dishonor their parents and give their resources to other places.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter (Torah).22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Matt 7: 21-23

Yeshua says there will be many miracle workers who claim they know him, but will be lawless. Yeshua says these people will be rejected.

17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19

Yeshua says plainly that the entire Torah will be in effect until "heaven and earth pass away". He is paraphrasing the prophet Jeremiah here.

You like many nominal Christians are greatly mistaken because: When a Christian receives the grace of God, namely the "Holy Spirit" he is not abandoning the LAW, but he is taking on the Holy character of Christ, in doing that he will naturally do all things pleasing to God. Yes I do admit that today's Christianity has a long way to go to fulfil that, nevertheless there are some who are known to God to be righteous by His Grace.

 

[Sabour]

It has something to do with "sacrifice", one-answer.

In the old days, one of several reasons for sacrificing animals, was to seek forgiveness from God for their sins. Jews no longer offer animal sacrifices anymore because the Romans had destroyed their temple, in 70 CE.

But for the Christians, Jesus' crucifixion was mean to be the ultimate sacrifice, to forgive everyone's sins, particularly those who choose to follow him, hence to become Christians, in order to prepare the ways for people's salvation, in this case, for resurrection and the afterlife.

According to Christian teachings, Jesus had to die, in order for him to be "resurrected". And the resurrection was meant to be one of the many miracles that took place.

That's how I see or interpret what Christians believe in.

Did the crucifixion of Jesus take place?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. The only sources to recorded the events about Jesus in the 1st century CE, come from the gospels and from some letters.

The Qur'an and anything else written by Muslims about Jesus are far too removed by events, to be taken seriously. The Qur'an recording of what we call biblical events, is just a mishmash of collective narratives that don't make sense.

This is your interpretation about things which may be or may not be true. I mean you yourself had said that maybe it happened maybe not.

You said that is how you see or interpret what Christians believe. Well what about what you believe?

 

[Sabour]

Therefore "Allah" is His profession, Has Allah got a name? What about his character: is He loving, forgiving, does he acts as father to humanity, is he holy and does he requires holiness from his people, or is he capricious? What is he like to you?

Huh ?

Allah is the only Deity. Allah is what Christians call God or Lord (unless they are referring to Jesus peace be upon him)

To know his character, one can refer to the Quraan and Hadith to know Allah.

For example, as I told you, Allah has 99 other attributes through the Quraan.

1 The Greatest Name Allah
2 The All-Compassionate Ar-Rahman
3 The All-Merciful Ar-Rahim
4 The Absolute Ruler Al-Malik
5 The Pure One Al-Quddus
6 The Source of Peace As-Salam
7 The Inspirer of Faith Al-Mu'min
8 The Guardian Al-Muhaymin
9 The Victorious Al-Aziz
10 The Compeller Al-Jabbar
11 The Greatest Al-Mutakabbir
12 The Creator Al-Khaliq
13 The Maker of Order Al-Bari'
14 The Shaper of Beauty Al-Musawwir
15 The Forgiving Al-Ghaffar
16 The Subduer Al-Qahhar
17 The Giver of All Al-Wahhab
18 The Sustainer Ar-Razzaq
19 The Opener Al-Fattah
20 The Knower of All Al-`Alim
21 The Constrictor Al-Qabid
22 The Reliever Al-Basit
23 The Abaser Al-Khafid
24 The Exalter Ar-Rafi
25 The Bestower of Honors Al-Mu'izz
26 The Humiliator Al-Mudhill
27 The Hearer of All As-Sami
28 The Seer of All Al-Basir
29 The Judge Al-Hakam
30 The Just Al-`Adl
31 The Subtle One Al-Latif
32 The All-Aware Al-Khabir
33 The Forbearing Al-Halim
34 The Magnificent Al-Azim
35 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults Al-Ghafur
36 The Rewarder of Thankfulness Ash-Shakur
37 The Highest Al-Ali
38 The Greatest Al-Kabir
39 The Preserver Al-Hafiz
40 The Nourisher Al-Muqit
41 The Accounter Al-Hasib
42 The Mighty Al-Jalil
43 The Generous Al-Karim
44 The Watchful One Ar-Raqib
45 The Responder to Prayer Al-Mujib
46 The All-Comprehending Al-Wasi
47 The Perfectly Wise Al-Hakim
48 The Loving One Al-Wadud
49 The Majestic One Al-Majid
50 The Resurrector Al-Ba'ith
51 The Witness Ash-Shahid
52 The Truth Al-Haqq
53 The Trustee Al-Wakil
54 The Possessor of All Strength Al-Qawiyy
55 The Forceful One Al-Matin
56 The Governor Al-Waliyy
57 The Praised One Al-Hamid
58 The Appraiser Al-Muhsi
59 The Originator Al-Mubdi'
60 The Restorer Al-Mu'id
61 The Giver of Life Al-Muhyi
62 The Taker of Life Al-Mumit
63 The Ever Living One Al-Hayy
64 The Self-Existing One Al-Qayyum
65 The Finder Al-Wajid
66 The Glorious Al-Majid
67 The Indivisible Al-Wahid
68 The Satisfier of All Needs As-Samad
69 The All Powerful Al-Qadir
70 The Creator of All Power Al-Muqtadir
71 The Expediter Al-Muqaddim
72 The Delayer Al-Mu'akhkhir
73 The First Al-Awwal
74 The Last Al-Akhir
75 The Manifest One Az-Zahir
76 The Hidden One Al-Batin
77 The Protecting Friend Al-Wali
78 The Supreme One Al-Muta'ali
79 The Doer of Good Al-Barr
80 The Guide to Repentance At-Tawwab
81 The Avenger Al-Muntaqim
82 The Forgiver Al-'Afuww
83 The Clement Ar-Ra'uf
84 The Owner of All Malik-al-Mulk
85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty Dhu-al-Jalal wa-al-Ikram
86 The Equitable One Al-Muqsit
87 The Gatherer Al-Jami'
88 The Rich One Al-Ghani
89 The Enricher Al-Mughni
90 The Preventer of Harm Al-Mani'
91 The Creator of The Harmful Ad-Darr
92 The Creator of Good An-Nafi'
93 The Light An-Nur
94 The Guide Al-Hadi
95 The Originator Al-Badi
96 The Everlasting One Al-Baqi
97 The Inheritor of All Al-Warith
98 The Righteous Teacher Ar-Rashid
99 The Patient One As-Sabur

There are many verses to quote you to answer your questions. Let me begin with quoting the first chapter of the Quraan

1:1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
1:3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:4 Master of the Day of Judgment,
1:5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
1:6 Show us the straight path,
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.


39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."