why did they want to crucify jesus

[Sabour]

What is the difference between Christians and Muslims?

There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity than you would think of. However the differences are essential. One of the most important differences is about who Jesus peace be upon him was.

We believe he is a prophet and messenger of God just like Moses and Muhammad peace be upon him. Jesus peace be upon him is the only person referred in the Quraan as the Messiah.

4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

4:158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

4:172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him;

 

[gnostic]

You said that is how you see or interpret what Christians believe. Well what about what you believe?

What I believe in, is irrelevant, because I am not a Christian, one-answer. (I'm an agnostic, in case, you don't know or you have forgotten.)

Let's get one thing straight, "belief", especially religious belief, is not something I value highly, and believe me, I do value "faith" even less, because I see all "religious" faith as blind.

I'd rather deal with what sources are available, and tried to understand them. I have tried to do that with all the literature that I read. The literature could be the newspapers or magazines that I've been reading, or it could be physics or textbooks, or it could be historical, mythological or religious (scriptures or their exegesis).

Understanding what I read is far more important to me that believing what I read.

Do not confuse "understanding" with "belief", because they are not the same thing. Of course, sometimes understanding and belief, go in hand-in-hand, for a religious person such as yourself or for any Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc.

But the problem with religious people is that they often biased, when it comes to their own respective scriptures, that they have developed tunnel-vision syndrome, when it come to their scriptures or their religions, versus everyone else's religions.

Do you understanding what I am saying?

Asking what I "believe" in, is pointless.

In any case, any information that I share with you - my understanding, my view or my interpretation - you are going to dismiss it, because you are already have your mind set on Islam and the Islamic version, and can't see beyond your bias.

You would choose to say that I am wrong, instead of learning what (knowledge) I have to share... in fact, you have already done so -

This is your interpretation about things which may be or may not be true. I mean you yourself had said that maybe it happened maybe not.

I have already explain what I have learned (when I had talked about Jesus' crucifixion is like sacrifice), and yet, you are asking me for more.

Clearly, I had wasted my time and effort in writing my 1st reply, because you refused to understand what I had written the first time around.

Why do you want me to repeat myself?

And if I expand even further, would you understand the next post, or would you still ask for more?

 

[Sabour]

What I believe in, is irrelevant, because I am not a Christian, one-answer. (I'm an agnostic, in case, you don't know or you have forgotten.)

Let's get one thing straight, "belief", especially religious belief, is not something I value highly, and believe me, I do value "faith" even less, because I see all "religious" faith as blind.

I'd rather deal with what sources are available, and tried to understand them. I have tried to do that with all the literature that I read. The literature could be the newspapers or magazines that I've been reading, or it could be physics or textbooks, or it could be historical, mythological or religious (scriptures or their exegesis).

Understanding what I read is far more important to me that believing what I read.

Do not confuse "understanding" with "belief", because they are not the same thing. Of course, sometimes understanding and belief, go in hand-in-hand, for a religious person such as yourself or for any Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc.

But the problem with religious people is that they often biased, when it comes to their own respective scriptures, that they have developed tunnel-vision syndrome, when it come to their scriptures or their religions, versus everyone else's religions.

Do you understanding what I am saying?

Asking what I "believe" in, is pointless.

In any case, any information that I share with you - my understanding, my view or my interpretation - you are going to dismiss it, because you are already have your mind set on Islam and the Islamic version, and can't see beyond your bias.

You would choose to say that I am wrong, instead of learning what (knowledge) I have to share... in fact, you have already done so -



I have already explain what I have learned (when I had talked about Jesus' crucifixion is like sacrifice), and yet, you are asking me for more.

Clearly, I had wasted my time and effort in writing my 1st reply, because you refused to understand what I had written the first time around.

Why do you want me to repeat myself?

And if I expand even further, would you understand the next post, or would you still ask for more?

Lol Gnostic.

You have no reason to be angry at me. All what you have stated is something I am familiar with. I wouldn't have asked you anything if it were not for the sentence you have written finally in your first reply. Let me quote it.

The Qur'an and anything else written by Muslims about Jesus are far too removed by events, to be taken seriously. The Qur'an recording of what we call biblical events, is just a mishmash of collective narratives that don't make sense.

As a agnostic who said that perhaps he was crucified and perhaps not, I didn't see that coming. That seemed more like a christain person would say. A christian who gives advantage for the bible over the Quraan and say that Quraan actually tried to copy event from the bible when in fact there are many differences between the bible and the Quraan.

So sorry to bother you gnostic, you claim to be something which you are not. Your attempt to give the bible advantage over Quraan and refer to the events of biblical events doesn't make you an agnostic the way you think. Perhaps somewhere in your mind, you are still a christian.

Don't bother replying if you don't feel like. I was just explaining why I asked what I asked.

And to correct you, Quraan was not written by muslims .... It is a revelation just as the Injeel once was ...

 

[gnostic]

As a agnostic who said that perhaps he was crucified and perhaps not, I didn't see that coming. That seemed more like a christain person would say. A christian who gives advantage for the bible over the Quraan and say that Quraan actually tried to copy event from the bible when in fact there are many differences between the bible and the Quraan.

So sorry to bother you gnostic, you claim to be something which you are not. Your attempt to give the bible advantage over Quraan and refer to the events of biblical events doesn't make you an agnostic the way you think.

one-answer. The advantages that I may have put on the gospels and epistles over the Qur'an is TIME of compositions, and not one of belief in the Jesus' story, whether it be the Christian or the Qur'anic versions.

When I said "gospels and epistles", I just mean the New Testament (NT), not the whole BIBLE, mind you, because this thread you have created is about Jesus (like his crucifixion), so it would have nothing to do with the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament).

Time, meaning that majority of the gospels (and letters) were written within a generation or two (or even three) of the 1st century CE, and the Qur'an about Jesus was written 5 centuries later.

The more time between Jesus and when any text written about Jesus, the less I will take seriously. Any text written after the 1st two generations, would be and should be considered suspect of distortions, exaggerations, etc.

Tell me, how many hadiths about Muhammad's life and teachings, do you take them seriously, when they were over a century or more after Muhammad's death? Do you not doubt their authenticity because of the time gap?

If you do doubt the authenticity of hadiths about Muhammad's life or teachings, then you will understand why doubt any written about the Qur'an that was written 6 centuries after Jesus' death.

And that not the only things I don't take seriously from the Qur'an.

The Qur'an was also written over 1000 years after most of the Tanakh (or Old Testament), so I doubt the authenticity of the Qur'an of anything written about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, David, Solomon or any other prophets.

And please, don't claim that the Qur'an was written by Allah or God. I am not going to take that claim (divine authorship) seriously at all. If the Qur'an was the work of Allah himself, then why bother giving the Qur'an to Muhammad, who supposedly can't read or write. Allah being the author of the Qur'an is a different subject that I don't want to get into.

Look. I like reading about myths and legends, but I don't take them seriously, as being literal, historical or factual. And that's how I treat the religious literature, like the Tanakh, gospels or the Qur'an. I certainly wouldn't believe in them to be true.

 

[Sabour]

one-answer. The advantages that I may have put on the gospels and epistles over the Qur'an is TIME of compositions, and not one of belief in the Jesus' story, whether it be the Christian or the Qur'anic versions.

When I said "gospels and epistles", I just mean the New Testament (NT), not the whole BIBLE, mind you, because this thread you have created is about Jesus (like his crucifixion), so it would have nothing to do with the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament).

Time, meaning that majority of the gospels (and letters) were written within a generation or two (or even three) of the 1st century CE, and the Qur'an about Jesus was written 5 centuries later.

The more time between Jesus and when any text written about Jesus, the less I will take seriously. Any text written after the 1st two generations, would be and should be considered suspect of distortions, exaggerations, etc.

Tell me, how many hadiths about Muhammad's life and teachings, do you take them seriously, when they were over a century or more after Muhammad's death? Do you not doubt their authenticity because of the time gap?

If you do doubt the authenticity of hadiths about Muhammad's life or teachings, then you will understand why doubt any written about the Qur'an that was written 6 centuries after Jesus' death.

And that not the only things I don't take seriously from the Qur'an.

The Qur'an was also written over 1000 years after most of the Tanakh (or Old Testament), so I doubt the authenticity of the Qur'an of anything written about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, David, Solomon or any other prophets.

And please, don't claim that the Qur'an was written by Allah or God. I am not going to take that claim (divine authorship) seriously at all. If the Qur'an was the work of Allah himself, then why bother giving the Qur'an to Muhammad, who supposedly can't read or write. Allah being the author of the Qur'an is a different subject that I don't want to get into.

Look. I like reading about myths and legends, but I don't take them seriously, as being literal, historical or factual. And that's how I treat the religious literature, like the Tanakh, gospels or the Qur'an. I certainly wouldn't believe in them to be true.

Your closing paragraphs are other things to discuss that are not related to the OP.

As for this thread, I am quoting things from the bible as my OP shows. I am not quoting from the Quraan.

As for what you said as questioning why was the book revealed to a person who was illiterate, the wisdom of that is that people won't be saying that it was Muhammad peace be upon him who wrote the Quraan. Something that people are doing although they know that he was illiterate. Allah knows best


I didn't know that.


But I fail to see how they are not bible related

 

[free spirit]

Huh ?

Allah is the only Deity. Allah is what Christians call God or Lord (unless they are referring to Jesus peace be upon him)

To know his character, one can refer to the Quraan and Hadith to know Allah.

For example, as I told you, Allah has 99 other attributes through the Quraan.

1 The Greatest Name Allah
2 The All-Compassionate Ar-Rahman
3 The All-Merciful Ar-Rahim
4 The Absolute Ruler Al-Malik
5 The Pure One Al-Quddus
6 The Source of Peace As-Salam
7 The Inspirer of Faith Al-Mu'min
8 The Guardian Al-Muhaymin
9 The Victorious Al-Aziz
10 The Compeller Al-Jabbar
11 The Greatest Al-Mutakabbir
12 The Creator Al-Khaliq
13 The Maker of Order Al-Bari'
14 The Shaper of Beauty Al-Musawwir
15 The Forgiving Al-Ghaffar
16 The Subduer Al-Qahhar
17 The Giver of All Al-Wahhab
18 The Sustainer Ar-Razzaq
19 The Opener Al-Fattah
20 The Knower of All Al-`Alim
21 The Constrictor Al-Qabid
22 The Reliever Al-Basit
23 The Abaser Al-Khafid
24 The Exalter Ar-Rafi
25 The Bestower of Honors Al-Mu'izz
26 The Humiliator Al-Mudhill
27 The Hearer of All As-Sami
28 The Seer of All Al-Basir
29 The Judge Al-Hakam
30 The Just Al-`Adl
31 The Subtle One Al-Latif
32 The All-Aware Al-Khabir
33 The Forbearing Al-Halim
34 The Magnificent Al-Azim
35 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults Al-Ghafur
36 The Rewarder of Thankfulness Ash-Shakur
37 The Highest Al-Ali
38 The Greatest Al-Kabir
39 The Preserver Al-Hafiz
40 The Nourisher Al-Muqit
41 The Accounter Al-Hasib
42 The Mighty Al-Jalil
43 The Generous Al-Karim
44 The Watchful One Ar-Raqib
45 The Responder to Prayer Al-Mujib
46 The All-Comprehending Al-Wasi
47 The Perfectly Wise Al-Hakim
48 The Loving One Al-Wadud
49 The Majestic One Al-Majid
50 The Resurrector Al-Ba'ith
51 The Witness Ash-Shahid
52 The Truth Al-Haqq
53 The Trustee Al-Wakil
54 The Possessor of All Strength Al-Qawiyy
55 The Forceful One Al-Matin
56 The Governor Al-Waliyy
57 The Praised One Al-Hamid
58 The Appraiser Al-Muhsi
59 The Originator Al-Mubdi'
60 The Restorer Al-Mu'id
61 The Giver of Life Al-Muhyi
62 The Taker of Life Al-Mumit
63 The Ever Living One Al-Hayy
64 The Self-Existing One Al-Qayyum
65 The Finder Al-Wajid
66 The Glorious Al-Majid
67 The Indivisible Al-Wahid
68 The Satisfier of All Needs As-Samad
69 The All Powerful Al-Qadir
70 The Creator of All Power Al-Muqtadir
71 The Expediter Al-Muqaddim
72 The Delayer Al-Mu'akhkhir
73 The First Al-Awwal
74 The Last Al-Akhir
75 The Manifest One Az-Zahir
76 The Hidden One Al-Batin
77 The Protecting Friend Al-Wali
78 The Supreme One Al-Muta'ali
79 The Doer of Good Al-Barr
80 The Guide to Repentance At-Tawwab
81 The Avenger Al-Muntaqim
82 The Forgiver Al-'Afuww
83 The Clement Ar-Ra'uf
84 The Owner of All Malik-al-Mulk
85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty Dhu-al-Jalal wa-al-Ikram
86 The Equitable One Al-Muqsit
87 The Gatherer Al-Jami'
88 The Rich One Al-Ghani
89 The Enricher Al-Mughni
90 The Preventer of Harm Al-Mani'
91 The Creator of The Harmful Ad-Darr
92 The Creator of Good An-Nafi'
93 The Light An-Nur
94 The Guide Al-Hadi
95 The Originator Al-Badi
96 The Everlasting One Al-Baqi
97 The Inheritor of All Al-Warith
98 The Righteous Teacher Ar-Rashid
99 The Patient One As-Sabur

There are many verses to quote you to answer your questions. Let me begin with quoting the first chapter of the Quraan

1:1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
1:3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.
1:4 Master of the Day of Judgment,
1:5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
1:6 Show us the straight path,
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.


39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

You wrote, "1 The Greatest Name Allah" I understand by this that "ALLAH" is His name and His profession. We Christians borrow from the Jews the name of God "I AM" but as Jesus inherited God, God has given Him the name which is above every name. Therefore Jesus is our God and saviour. He demonstrate His love for us by dyeing for our sins. Let me explain: Jesus inherited God Therefore Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus, they are one and the same. He is a brother and father to me, He is the judge and the saviour to me, He is a King and priest, or ruler and servant. He is first in everyone and in everything there is.
You wrote,
"1:6 Show us the straight path,
1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray"
Why do you have to specify to Allah which path to show you? My God only shows me the path to repentance leading to holiness.
Please explain What Allah did, or is doing for you? How do you know that he loves you? do you have a relationship with him?

 

[Sabour]

Why do you have to specify to Allah which path to show you? My God only shows me the path to repentance leading to holiness.
Please explain What Allah did, or is doing for you? How do you know that he loves you? do you have a relationship with him?

Allah is the Creator of everything and he is the All knowing. It is Him who knows what is best for us as humans for He is our Creator so we ask Him to guide us to the straight path.

God is guiding me all the time. God is giving me happiness. God showed me why I exist.

It is Allah who sent us the prophets to share his message with us which is worshiping only God. This also includes Jesus peace be upon him.

ِAllah also created us in the best fashion.

What is Allah doing for me? Actually everything I have been blessed with is from Him. The blessing of Jesus peace be upon him is the blessings of Allah because it is Allah ( The only God) who sent him to humanity. As well as he sent other prophets.

Whatever I may do, I won't be able to be worthy of eternal life in paradise. Allah gives me that.

There are many verses in the Quraan and many Hadiths that show that Allah loves us.

One hadith is Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah created one hundred (parts of mercy) and He distributed one amongst His creation and kept this one hundred excepting one with Himself (for the Day of Resurrection).

Additionally there are many signs that Allah loves you among which you would feel inner peace within you and you would be satisfied with whatever you meet in your road. Also Allah will make all people accept you and love you just when they see you, you face would be a source of light. People will automatically feel comfortable dealing with you once they see you. Perhaps these make no sense now, but these are among the signs that Allah loves you.

As for your last question, I have personal experiences but I think they are of little relevance to anyone hearing them because one has to live them in order to understand them.

I know that God loves me because he gave me signs that lead me to Him when I was on the wrong track.

Another hadith says "Allah says, 'I am as my servant expects Me to be, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he thinks of Me, I think of him. If he mentions Me in company, I mention him in an even better company. When he comes closer to Me by a handspan, I come closer to him an arm's length. If he draws closer to Me by an arm's length, I draw closer by a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him. If my servant comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Al-Bukhari)


I don't know what else to tell you. You can get as many answers to your questions as the number of people you ask.

Every blessing and every thing we own or can have is from Allah.

 

[gnostic]

one-answer. The advantages that I may have put on the gospels and epistles over the Qur'an is TIME of compositions, and not one of belief in the Jesus' story, whether it be the Christian or the Qur'anic versions.

When I said "gospels and epistles", I just mean the New Testament (NT), not the whole BIBLE, mind you, because this thread you have created is about Jesus (like his crucifixion), so it would have nothing to do with the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament).

I didn't know that.


But I fail to see how they are not bible related

The Christian bible may have combined the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament) and the New Testament as one book, called the bible, I preferred to see them as two separate collections of scriptures, and that everything about Jesus or teachings of early Christians as separate from the Tanakh.

You wrote earlier:

As a agnostic who said that perhaps he was crucified and perhaps not, I didn't see that coming. That seemed more like a christain person would say. A christian who gives advantage for the bible over the Quraan and say that Quraan actually tried to copy event from the bible when in fact there are many differences between the bible and the Quraan.

So sorry to bother you gnostic, you claim to be something which you are not. Your attempt to give the bible advantage over Quraan and refer to the events of biblical events doesn't make you an agnostic the way you think.

You wrote "bible", not gospels. The whole bible is not about Jesus. Hence my disagreement with you over the word you had used - "bible" in those instances.

Perhaps somewhere in your mind, you are still a christian.

When I was younger, between 16, i had read the bible for the 1st time, and I nearly joined my sister's church. They even had water ready for my baptism, when I had changed my mind. I was never a Christian, one-answer, and I didn't join the church because I would have become a Christian, because of my sister's belief or faith, and not my own. You could say that I had an epiphany. That's why I didn't go through with my conversion.

But just because I didn't convert, didn't mean I didn't understand what were written in the Hebrew or Christian scriptures. Understanding what I read, doesn't mean I have to believe in god, prophets or miracles.

I have read, understand and enjoy reading The Iliad and The Odyssey, but does that mean I have to believe in the Zeus, Apollo or Athena? Does it make me ethnically or nationally Greek?

I have also read the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Epic of Atrahasis, does it make ancient Babylonian.

Since, re-reading the Bible,I no longer accept a lot of the Christian interpretations of the Old Testament, is the right one. Seriously, doesn't make an Israeli or Jewish?

And even when I do disagree with you over the gospels vs the Qur'an, doesn't any way mean that I blindly accept the gospels. If you read any of the my past topics, I disagree with Christians plenty. You are being little-minded, if you think I am a Christian, simply because I think the gospels make more sense than the Qur'an about Jesus.

 

[Sabour]

The Christian bible may have combined the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament) and the New Testament as one book, called the bible, I preferred to see them as two separate collections of scriptures, and that everything about Jesus or teachings of early Christians as separate from the Tanakh.

You wrote earlier:



You wrote "bible", not gospels. The whole bible is not about Jesus. Hence my disagreement with you over the word you had used - "bible" in those instances.




When I was younger, between 16, i had read the bible for the 1st time, and I nearly joined my sister's church. They even had water ready for my baptism, when I had changed my mind. I was never a Christian, one-answer, and I didn't join the church because I would have become a Christian, because of my sister's belief or faith, and not my own. You could say that I had an epiphany. That's why I didn't go through with my conversion.

But just because I didn't convert, didn't mean I didn't understand what were written in the Hebrew or Christian scriptures. Understanding what I read, doesn't mean I have to believe in god, prophets or miracles.

I have read, understand and enjoy reading The Iliad and The Odyssey, but does that mean I have to believe in the Zeus, Apollo or Athena? Does it make me ethnically or nationally Greek?

I have also read the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Epic of Atrahasis, does it make ancient Babylonian.

Since, re-reading the Bible,I no longer accept a lot of the Christian interpretations of the Old Testament, is the right one. Seriously, doesn't make an Israeli or Jewish?

And even when I do disagree with you over the gospels vs the Qur'an, doesn't any way mean that I blindly accept the gospels. If you read any of the my past topics, I disagree with Christians plenty. You are being little-minded, if you think I am a Christian, simply because I think the gospels make more sense than the Qur'an about Jesus.

I see what your points are. It is not only because you thought the gospels make more sense regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) than the Quraan that made me say you are a Christian.

Anyways, for what it is worth, isn't Deuteronomy part of the gospels?

 

[free spirit]

Allah is the Creator of everything and he is the All knowing. It is Him who knows what is best for us as humans for He is our Creator so we ask Him to guide us to the straight path.

God is guiding me all the time. God is giving me happiness. God showed me why I exist.

It is Allah who sent us the prophets to share his message with us which is worshiping only God. This also includes Jesus peace be upon him.

ِAllah also created us in the best fashion.

What is Allah doing for me? Actually everything I have been blessed with is from Him. The blessing of Jesus peace be upon him is the blessings of Allah because it is Allah ( The only God) who sent him to humanity. As well as he sent other prophets.

Whatever I may do, I won't be able to be worthy of eternal life in paradise. Allah gives me that.

There are many verses in the Quraan and many Hadiths that show that Allah loves us.

One hadith is Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah created one hundred (parts of mercy) and He distributed one amongst His creation and kept this one hundred excepting one with Himself (for the Day of Resurrection).

Additionally there are many signs that Allah loves you among which you would feel inner peace within you and you would be satisfied with whatever you meet in your road. Also Allah will make all people accept you and love you just when they see you, you face would be a source of light. People will automatically feel comfortable dealing with you once they see you. Perhaps these make no sense now, but these are among the signs that Allah loves you.

As for your last question, I have personal experiences but I think they are of little relevance to anyone hearing them because one has to live them in order to understand them.

I know that God loves me because he gave me signs that lead me to Him when I was on the wrong track.

Another hadith says "Allah says, 'I am as my servant expects Me to be, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he thinks of Me, I think of him. If he mentions Me in company, I mention him in an even better company. When he comes closer to Me by a handspan, I come closer to him an arm's length. If he draws closer to Me by an arm's length, I draw closer by a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him. If my servant comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Al-Bukhari)


I don't know what else to tell you. You can get as many answers to your questions as the number of people you ask.

Every blessing and every thing we own or can have is from Allah.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I am satisfied that you have a good understanding of what the only universal God requires from all his faithful children. I can also see that the major difference is the position that Jesus holds. I say that He is the son of God, and that He inherited God, therefore He is one and the same with God. You say Jesus is only a prophet.
Jesus said in Matthew 10:38-42
“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 “He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it.
40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
41 “He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink; truly I say to you he shall not lose his reward.”
Did you read my post, number 500.

 

[gnostic]

Anyways, for what it is worth, isn't Deuteronomy part of the gospels?

No. The four gospels of the New Testament only relate to the ministry of Jesus.

The Deuteronomy was written about 600 years before Jesus, and it is about the final years of Moses. Some would include the Deuteronomy as part of the Torah.

You have never read the bible before, have you?

If you have never read the Christian gospels or the Hebrew Torah, then I don't see how you can argue against either. Without knowledge of either texts, then one can only argue from the point of ignorance.

 

[RabbiO]

Some would include the Deuteronomy as part of the Torah.

Only some??

 

[Sabour]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I am satisfied that you have a good understanding of what the only universal God requires from all his faithful children

Thank for saying that.

However, truth to be told, I am not satisfied with your understandings and I sorry but I really have to say that to you.

One of the requirements that God requires from Him is worshiping him alone and associating with him no partners. Something that Christians consistently do and something that Jesus peace be upon himself stood against and made it clear in many verses.

Matthew 15:9
"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Matthew 7:22

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Mark 12:29

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall worship Him with all your strength and all your might and all your soul and all your heart."

Matthew 19:16-17

"And behold one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, this God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

You say Jesus is only a prophet.

I think verse 4:171 best describes who Jesus peace be upon him was

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

19:16 And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
19:17 And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
19:18 She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah ."
19:19 He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."
19:20 She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
19:21 He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "
19:22 So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
19:23 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."
19:24 But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
19:25 And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
19:26 So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "
19:27 Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.
19:28 O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
19:29 So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
19:30 [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
19:31 And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive
19:32 And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.
19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."
19:34 That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.
19:35 It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.
19:36 [Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

Did you read my post, number 500.

Now I did.

From your interest to find the truth, I am renewed to share with you what I believe to be the universal truth.

I have already found the truth in Islam.

By the wisdom of God, the answer to “What is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus: “I find no guilt in Him.” In other words, “He is holy, He is without sin.” We can see that by being holy even unto death, He has fulfilled His primary mission, which speaks thus: “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth (which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel).
So we come to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it.

And there are where the problems in Christianity starts.

Words of Jesus peace be upon him get explained in a certain way to fit what already is told when there are no evidence that these implicit statements actually mean what people are saying.

Yes Jesus peace be upon him was without sin, he was a perfect prophet. Does that mean Jesus is not a human because he didn't sin? Of course not. Jesus peace be upon him denied divinity many times EXPLICITLY as I have always been quoting from the bible.

Let me quote another verses to show you something.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

This can't get any clearer.

Is it possible to believe in God and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Doesn’t even Satan believe?

I didn't know what you are trying to prove here. Last time I checked I thought it was christianity (not the bible) that teaches that salvation is through believing that Jesus peace be upon him died for our sins. Correct me if I am wrong.

In Islam faith without works doesn't save us. It is both believing and doing righteous deeds. A muslim believes in the 6 articles of faith which are Oneness of God, Messengers and prophets of God, Revelations,Angels,day of judgement, and predestination. Articles of Faith

But by the grace of God

We believe in that too.

repentance

This is essential in Islam.

He knows the right way for each one of us

Agree.

our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.

That is exactly the case. Couldn't agree more.

In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I Am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the Father, but through Me”. Yes!

I agree to that. Every prophet is the way to the truth and they give us life because without remembrance of God we are dead people and they are the ones who reminded us.

 

[Akivah]

Peace be on you.

Death of Hazrat Jesus (a.s.) is a controversial affair with the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims.

== The Jews believe that Jesus died on the cross because he was a false prophet. In this Connection they quote the Bible.

I've never heard any Jew say that. I believe the stories say that jesus was killed by Herod because he was a criminal.

 

[gnostic]

Only some??

Well...it wasn't written at the same time of the other Torah texts, the Deuteronomy being written with other books (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, and I think also Jeremiah) known collectively as Deuteronomistic history in the late 7th century BCE, because of the Deuteronomic reform.

While Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers were written independently from Deuteronomistic history, so these scholars (some) would put Deuteronomy outside of the Torah.

I only meant that some 20th century scholars who have accepted the documentary hypothesis, about the sources for each books of the Tanakh. Of course, Judaism and traditionally have always place Deuteronomy as part of the Torah.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear by what I mean by "some".

 

[free spirit]

Additionally there are many signs that Allah loves you among which you would feel inner peace within you and you would be satisfied with whatever you meet in your road. Also Allah will make all people accept you and love you just when they see you, you face would be a source of light. People will automatically feel comfortable dealing with you once they see you. Perhaps these make no sense now, but these are among the signs that Allah loves you.

This is fantasy, "Also Allah will make all people accept you and love you just when they see you, you face would be a source of light." As you know Jesus was executed, and if you do not believe that, the early Christians were persecuted or killed, and if you do not believe that, why are the Muslims killing each other as we speak, they are not only making war, they are committing atrocities. God gives wisdom to recognise a lie when you see one. God doesn't lie, but man do. And the above is a fabrication of man, a lie.

 

[Sabour]

This is fantasy, "Also Allah will make all people accept you and love you just when they see you, you face would be a source of light." As you know Jesus was executed, and if you do not believe that, the early Christians were persecuted or killed, and if you do not believe that, why are the Muslims killing each other as we speak, they are not only making war, they are committing atrocities. God gives wisdom to recognize a lie when you see one. God doesn't lie, but man do. And the above is a fabrication of man, a lie.

Let me remind you I was referring to extremely righteous people by saying what you are quoting and you added the word "all".


Free spirit, we were conducting the discussion just fine talking about the bible and the Quraan. We are talking about what Islam is and what Christianity is. We are not talking about the violence people bring in with them. So let us not get into what people do and claim it to be in the name of the religion because that would mean all religions are guilty.

As I remember, and for what it is worth, the part you quoted is the only thing that I told you that it may not make sense to you.

This is according to a scholar in Islam called Ibn Al Qayyem

The sinner will find darkness in his heart, which he will feel just as he feels the darkness of night. So this darkness affects his heart as the physical darkness affects his vision. For obedience is light and disobedience is darkness. The stronger the darkness grows, the greater becomes his confusion, until he falls into innovation, misguidance and other things that lead to doom, without even realizing, like a blind man who goes out in the darkness of the night, walking alone This darkness grows stronger until it covers the eyes, then it grows stronger until it covers the face, which appears dark and is seen by everyone. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Good deeds make the face light, give light to the heart, and bring about ample provision, physical strength and love in people’s hearts. Bad deeds make the face dark, give darkness to the heart, and bring about physical weakness, a lack of provision and hatred in people’s hearts.”

Think about this the way you think, but I saw both kinds of people in my every day life. I really know what it means to look in a face of person and see his face full of light.

However, regarding everything else I quoted in the Quraan and from Hadiths, I am sure that you can match some of them to what you actually find in the bible.


I think I didn't take time to thank you for you asking me about my belief and being concerned for my search for truth so I thank you for that.

 

[Sabour]

Free spirit,

The way I see it, is that you keep on explaining things and quote here and there to back up what you are saying neglecting the parts of the bible which contradict what you say.

I am not interested in seeing long speeches. ( which I read)

Let me tell you that stating how things work and backing it up with some verses isn't called proof, it is called an explanation. I can make up a story and back my ideas with verses from the bible. That doesn't prove anything.

Let me remind you that if Christianity is a universal language, than understanding who God is wouldn't be as complicated as you have stated.

You do not know how to worship

Let me ask you, when Jesus peace be upon him was praying to God, didn't he put his head on the floor ?

Mathew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

That is the way we worship God.

About the image of God, I suggest you read this Man image of God


By the way, are you mario on churchleaders.com ?

 

[free spirit]

[

Free spirit,

The way I see it, is that you keep on explaining things and quote here and there to back up what you are saying neglecting the parts of the bible which contradict what you say.

I am not interested in seeing long speeches. ( which I read)

Let me tell you that stating how things work and backing it up with some verses isn't called proof, it is called an explanation. I can make up a story and back my ideas with verses from the bible. That doesn't prove anything.

Let me remind you that if Christianity is a universal language, than understanding who God is wouldn't be as complicated as you have stated.



Let me ask you, when Jesus peace be upon him was praying to God, didn't he put his head on the floor ?

Mathew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

That is the way we worship God.

About the image of God, I suggest you read this Man image of God


By the way, are you mario on churchleaders.com ?

To ask something is not worship; I was right in saying that to you; most believers have no idea of how to warship.
I have read the 6 pages on the "image of God." I entirely agree with his arguments; Yes God has no image, shape or form. For how can you give "cognition" an image, shape or form. And that is exactly the image that men has received from God in the beginning. But there is more for the love of God for humanity has no limits, He came in the form of a man to create a man worthy to receive His fullness,
in Acts 2:33: we read “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
The above statement is confirmed in John 16:13-15, for we read: “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”
From the above verses we can say with confidence that a holy and graceful human character, in this case the character of Jesus, has become the character of our God. They have become one and the same, as God has intended from all eternity. I know that most Christians are aware of this, but not many of them know that the gift of His grace is not limited to receiving His undeserved love in the form of forgiveness, which is priceless in itself, but also includes the indescribable gift of His Holy Character, so that we may also became “heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.”
No I cannot prove anything neither can you, by quoting verses to you, especially if you are not a believer, but I try to reveal the God in you, for we all are His Children. Yes I am Mario, it is a small world.

 

[free spirit]

I didn't know what you are trying to prove here. Last time I checked I thought it was christianity (not the bible) that teaches that salvation is through believing that Jesus peace be upon him died for our sins. Correct me if I am wrong.

In Islam faith without works doesn't save us. It is both believing and doing righteous deeds. A muslim believes in the 6 articles of faith which are Oneness of God, Messengers and prophets of God, Revelations,Angels,day of judgement, and predestination.

It is sufficient to say that there are many false believes in Christianity, for the devil hate Christianity, and he works hard to disrupt God's truth. First he killed God's Son, then he persecuted His Son's followers and then the devil disseminate tares in the Holy Word of God. Many Christians have abandoned the worship of God, for the worship of a book that they themselves confess not to understand.

Yes do be a true Christian you have to do good works, not to get salvation for yourself, but to bring salvation to others. For it is said that one cannot love God if he doesn't love is neighbour.