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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
What do you believe would be valid evidence of Mary being descended from Nathan?
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Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera (/pænˈtɛrə/; c. 22 BC – AD 40) was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany, in 1859. A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus has long been hypothesized by numerous scholars, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who, according to Christian writer Origen in his "Against Celsus".....Jesus was depicted as the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a Roman soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Pantera".[1] Tiberius Pantera could have been serving in the region at the time of Jesus's conception.[1] Both the ancient Talmud and medieval Jewish writings and sayings reinforced this notion, referring to "Yeshu ben Pantera", which translates as "Jesus, son of Pantera".

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera (/pænˈtɛrə/; c. 22 BC – AD 40) was a Roman soldier whose tombstone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany, in 1859. A historical connection from this soldier to Jesus has long been hypothesized by numerous scholars, based on the claim of the ancient Greek philosopher Celsus, who, according to Christian writer Origen in his "Against Celsus".....Jesus was depicted as the result of an affair between his mother Mary and a Roman soldier. He said she was "convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Pantera".[1] Tiberius Pantera could have been serving in the region at the time of Jesus's conception.[1] Both the ancient Talmud and medieval Jewish writings and sayings reinforced this notion, referring to "Yeshu ben Pantera", which translates as "Jesus, son of Pantera".

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia
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The church would have nothing to gain by making up a story of the Messiah being born of a virgin. The Virgin Birth Of Jesus – Did The Church Make This Up? | Reasons for Jesus

1. The Virgin Birth Raised Suspicions
Making up a fake story about Jesus’ virgin birth wouldn’t make Christianity more attractive to the Jews. It would actually make people suspicious about Jesus. Who was the real dad? Did Mary hook up with a Roman soldier? That kind of thing. Why make it more difficult to accept the Christian message? The ancient church wouldn’t have taught that Jesus was born of a virgin unless they had good reasons for believing he actually was.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
Sure they would. Another "Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy" notch in their sash.
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There is no evidence that the writers of the gospels would want to fabricate stories to support Jesus being the Messiah. One could say it would prove their belief that Jesus is the Messiah but that would be circular reasoning.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
Nope. Sorry. There's no proof for your assertion. How do you explain that Joseph had two different fathers?
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Even if Joseph was both a descendant of Solomon and Nathan that doesn't mean that he had two fathers. A lot of couples find out that they have distant relatives in common. The same is true for Joseph and Mary.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Wrong there is plenty of evidence that it was made up. Why would you say something so obviously false?
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Two beliefs having similar details doesn't mean that one copied the other. Eternal torment proved ... annihilation refuted

Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is eternal conscious torment a pagan false doctrine and a Jewish fable?
Here we document that annihilationists all accept that the view we have proven true, namely eternal conscious torment, was widely believed in the ancient world. They argue that Jesus borrowed from these false pagan doctrines in his teaching on hell. We reject this, as it would mean that Jesus promoted false doctrine. As the spiritual eyes into the spirit world, we believe that Jesus' teaching on eternal conscious torment is not untrue, simply because other cultures had similar views!

Introductory comment:

  1. To think that Christ was ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day or to assume that He was mistaken in using the rabbinic descriptions of Gehenna is to do great injustice to Him who was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Indeed, the mere fact that Christ utilized the rabbinic language connected with Gehenna, such as "unquenchable fire" and "never- dying worms," demonstrates beyond all doubt to any reasonable person that he deliberately used the word Gehenna to impress upon his hearers that eternal punishment awaits the wicked after the resurrection. No other conclusion is possible.
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Two beliefs having similar details doesn't mean that one copied the other. Eternal torment proved ... annihilation refuted
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Again an article that had nothing to do with what I posted and to make it even worse, from a bogus source.

Have you not noticed that the topic of this thread is "Why didn't God leave huge quantities of secular evidence ?" and you have not found one reason why God failed at doing this/ All that you have done is to offer lame excuses for his other failures.

Please try to explain why there is no reliable evidence for God.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Again an article that had nothing to do with what I posted and to make it even worse, from a bogus source.

Have you not noticed that the topic of this thread is "Why didn't God leave huge quantities of secular evidence ?" and you have not found one reason why God failed at doing this/ All that you have done is to offer lame excuses for his other failures.

Please try to explain why there is no reliable evidence for God.
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Josephus was a historian and he mentioned Jesus.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Even if Joseph was both a descendant of Solomon and Nathan that doesn't mean that he had two fathers. A lot of couples find out that they have distant relatives in common. The same is true for Joseph and Mary.
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That's a crock. Matthew says Jacob was the father of JOSEPH. Luke says Heli was the father of JOSEPH. Maybe Jacob and Heli were gay. That'd make both of them legitimate fathers, I suppose.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
That's a crock. Matthew says Jacob was the father of JOSEPH. Luke says Heli was the father of JOSEPH. Maybe Jacob and Heli were gay. That'd make both of them legitimate fathers, I suppose.
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I know people who said that they found distant common relatives that they and their spouse have.
 
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