Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[joelr]

There are always differences between the same essence of beliefs, like different denominations of those who believe in Christ. But the essence is the same regardless of the details. In the same way, the Bible and the Persians having similarities in the details doesn't mean that the Bible copied the Persians. Eternal torment proved ... annihilation refuted

You just proved yourself wrong with that example. Yes there are differences among Christian sects but we know for a fact that they all copied each other on the basic myths?

The coincidences between the Persian religion and Christainity are far too many to be chance. But not only that it all happened while the Persians were occupying their land. They even called the Persian King a messiah?
The similarities between pagan saviors and Jesus are also far to many to be chance. It's called religious synchretism. That's what the word is for? Because cultures borrow myths.

 

[joelr]

Psalm 23 was before Persian influence and it mentions hell. Sheol cannot be the grave because the wicked and the saved do not go to the same place.

Yahweh told Satan you incited me against Job for no reason, in the book of Job.

OMG. The original Hebrew said Sheol. You really don't know that?

 

[joelr]

Daniel believed in heaven and the resurrection of the dead, and he wrote the book of Daniel before the rule of the Persians. Rel 101: Understanding the Bible: Daniel

"Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.["

I said the concepts became way more prevalent and developed after the Persian influence. Resurrection of the dead goes back to Mesopotamian myths, of course Daniel knew about resurrection?
Daniel believed in heaven because the Jewish myths at the time was there was earth and heaven in the upper atmosphere where God lived.
Once again, the concept was then influenced by the Persians:

Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

When I was younger people thought my cousin was my sister.

And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

 

[joelr]

Psalm 23 was before Persian influence and it mentions hell. Sheol cannot be the grave because the wicked and the saved do not go to the same place.

the Jewish concept of the afterlife, sometimes known as olam haba, the World-to-come, is not discussed so often. The Torah has little to say on the subject of survival after death, but by the time of the rabbis two ideas had made inroads among the Jews:
one, which is probably derived from Greek thought,[56] is that of the immortal soul which returns to its creator after death;

the other, which is thought to be of Persian origin,[56] is that of resurrection of the dead.


Heaven - Wikipedia

That means in academia, where people actually want to understand the world, this is what they think. In apologetics they will twist, bend and omit the truth to always make it what they want.

 

[Skywalker]

Every myth is unique. One ring to rule them all is unique. Saviors get followers into an afterlife. Judaism was obsessed with sin. So their savior has to be a version that gets rid of that magic "sin force" so you can go to the afterlife.




No Psalm 23 says they go to Sheol. After the Persian influence hell became a big thing.
In Job and other OT stories God still sends Satan on missions. He is Yahweh's agent. Satan becomes a full enemy of God later. This was the influence of the Persian version of the devil.

Sheol is hell because it's described as where the lost go. A Biblical Examination of Hell -By Dr. Max D. Younce, Th.D

Hell in The Old Testament

The word "Hell" appears in the Old Testament approximately 31 times and, without exception, is translated from the Hebrew word "Sheol." This same Hebrew word is also translated "pit" three different times. "Pit," translated from Sheol, is found in Numbers 16:30,33 and Job 17:16. Hell is referred to as a pit three times, both being the same place.

Sheol is not the grave. A mistranslation--"Sheol" is also translated as grave approximately 25 times in the Old Testament, which has caused much confusion concerning the Doctrine of Hell. Jehovah's Witnesses utilize this translational error to the fullest, claiming Hell is the grave and nothing more. When we look at the Hebrew we find that the word "gibrah" is properly used for "grave." "Gibrah" is translated throughout the Old testament as "grave, burying place, and sepulchre," and properly so. Sheol is never in any case in the Old testament ever referring to grave, burying place or sepulchre; but, rather a place located in the center of the earth. The grave, burying place and sepulchre houses our dead bodies, but Sheol is the compartment that contains the souls and spirits that will never die and which were in those earthly bodies.

(Psalm 9:17) "The wicked shall be turned into hell (Sheol), and all the nations that forget God."

 

[Skywalker]

And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

There is a gray area for what defines close relatives. That's why Joseph may have been called the son and not son in law of Heli. For example, grandchildren are close relatives, but some people consider only children and siblings to be close relatives.

 

[Skywalker]

the Jewish concept of the afterlife, sometimes known as olam haba, the World-to-come, is not discussed so often. The Torah has little to say on the subject of survival after death, but by the time of the rabbis two ideas had made inroads among the Jews:
one, which is probably derived from Greek thought,[56] is that of the immortal soul which returns to its creator after death;

the other, which is thought to be of Persian origin,[56] is that of resurrection of the dead.


Heaven - Wikipedia

That means in academia, where people actually want to understand the world, this is what they think. In apologetics they will twist, bend and omit the truth to always make it what they want.

The afterlife is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. A Biblical Examination of Hell -By Dr. Max D. Younce, Th.D

In the King James translation, without exception, everywhere in the Old testament where the word "Hell" appears, it is always the Hebrew "Sheol."

1. Isaiah 5:14 (Sheol). "Hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."
   
   
   
2. (Psalm 9:17) "The wicked shall be turned into hell (Sheol), and all the nations that forget God."
   
   
   
3. (Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."
   
   
   
4. (Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."
   
   
   
5. (Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There is a gray area for what defines close relatives. That's why Joseph may have been called the son and not son in law of Heli. For example, grandchildren are close relatives, but some people consider only children and siblings to be close relatives.

Notice the word in bold and underlined. Unless you have hard evidence Heli was Joseph's father-in-law you're just guessing to try to validate the genealogy, right? Until you get hard evidence the fact remains in black and white that the gospels present two different fathers for Joseph. That's an error in a supposedly inerrant Bible.

 

[Skywalker]

There is no point in getting that specific because scripture is debated. The point is during the Persian period messianic ideas and other concepts unique to the Persians became prominent in Judaism. They actually called the PERSIAN KING a messiah as well?

"Early in the Second temple Period hopes for a better future are described in the Jewish scriptures.[web 1] After the return from the Babylonian exile, the Persian king Cyrus the Great was called "messiah" in Isaiah, due to his role in the return of the Jewish exiles."

A number of messianic ideas developed during the later Second Temple Period, ranging from this-worldly, political expectations, to apocalyptic expectations of an endtime in which the dead would be resurrected and the Kingdom of Heaven would be established on earth.[web 1] The Messiah might be a kingly "Son of David," or a more heavenly "Son of Man", but "Messianism became increasingly eschatological, and eschatology was decisively influenced by apocalypticism", while "messianic expectations became increasingly focused on the figure of an individual savior."[web 1] According to Zwi Werblowsky, "the Messiah no longer symbolized the coming of the new age, but he was somehow supposed to bring it about." The "Lord's anointed" thus became the "savior and redeemer" and the focus of more intense expectations and doctrines."[web 1] Messianic ideas developed both by new interpretations (pesher, midrash) of the Jewish scriptures, but also by visionary revelations."

Maybe the book of watchers and the book of enoch had details about the devil that were borrowed from Persian religions, but the idea of Satan being the devil goes back to the book of Job. Job 2:3.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Maybe the book of watchers and the book of enoch had details about the devil that were borrowed from Persian religions, but the idea of Satan being the devil goes back to the book of Job. Job 2:3.

Skywalker, you sure love words like "maybe" this and "maybe" that.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker, you sure love words like "maybe" this and "maybe" that.

The Persian invasion of the Jews was before the book of watchers was written. Watcher (angel) - Wikipedia

Watcher (Aramaic עִיר ʿiyr, plural עִירִין ʿiyrin, [ʕiːr(iːn)]; Theodotian trans: ir; from the root of Heb. ʿer, "awake, watchful".[1] Greek: ἐγρήγοροι, transl.: egrḗgoroi; "Watchers", "those who are awake"; "guard", "watcher"[2]) is a term used in connection with biblicalangels. Watcher occurs in both plural and singular forms in the Book of Daniel (4th–2nd century BC), where reference is made to their holiness. The apocryphal Books of Enoch (2nd–1st centuries BC) refer to both good and bad Watchers, with a primary focus on the rebellious ones.[3][4]

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker, you sure love words like "maybe" this and "maybe" that.

Even if the book of watchers and the book of Enoch are taken from Zoroastrianism or have similarities, there are verses in the Old Testament that talk about Satan being God's enemy. Satan - Wikipedia

Book of Zechariah
Zechariah 3:1–7 contains a description of a vision dated to the middle of February of 519 BC,[25] in which an angel shows Zechariah a scene of Joshua the High Priest dressed in filthy rags, representing the nation of Judah and its sins,[26] on trial with Yahweh as the judge and the satan standing as the prosecutor.[26] Yahweh rebukes the satan[26] and orders for Joshua to be given clean clothes, representing Yahweh's forgiveness of Judah's sins.[26]

 

[Skywalker]

Notice the word in bold and underlined. Unless you have hard evidence Heli was Joseph's father-in-law you're just guessing to try to validate the genealogy, right? Until you get hard evidence the fact remains in black and white that the gospels present two different fathers for Joseph. That's an error in a supposedly inerrant Bible.

Joseph was legally a son of Heli. Contradictions: What’s in a Father’s Name?

Luke’s Genealogy
When looking at Luke 3, the genealogical list is strictly men from Jesusto Adam, whereas in Matthew’s list, some women were included, such as Tamar, Ruth, and so on. So, if this were a genealogy of Mary, then she would be listed.

Moreover, in the genealogy, Heli is listed as the father of Joseph, who had 2 daughters. The first is Mary, and the other was Zebedee’s unnamed wife (Matthew 27:56; John 19:25). When there were no sons to preserve the inheritance in accordance with the Law of Moses (Numbers 27:1–11; Numbers 36:1–12), the husband would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name. Therefore, Joseph, when he married Mary, became the son of Heli according to the Law of Moses and could legally be included in the genealogy.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Joseph was legally a son of Heli. Contradictions: What’s in a Father’s Name?

+Where's the extra-Biblical evidence? Until you produce that you're just speculating. This appears to be your sole "proof"
Therefore, Joseph, when he married Mary, became the son of Heli according to the Law of Moses and could legally be included in the genealogy.

 

[Skywalker]

+Where's the extra-Biblical evidence? Until you produce that you're just speculating.

The Law of Moses was Jewish law at the time. Contradictions: What’s in a Father’s Name?

Joseph, when he married Mary, became the son of Heli according to the Law of Moses and could legally be included in the genealogy.

 

[Skywalker]

And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

That explains why Joseph under Jewish law being the son of Heli is possible.

 

[Skywalker]

"Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.["

I said the concepts became way more prevalent and developed after the Persian influence. Resurrection of the dead goes back to Mesopotamian myths, of course Daniel knew about resurrection?
Daniel believed in heaven because the Jewish myths at the time was there was earth and heaven in the upper atmosphere where God lived.
Once again, the concept was then influenced by the Persians:

Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]

Expressions that people use mention God and heaven and hell. God does everything with an order and a purpose. Beliefs like believing in the resurrection of the dead reflect that.

If those concepts were influenced by the Persians, that doesn't mean that they weren't in the Bible. Satan is mentioned in the book of Enoch, and there is evidence that it's questionable, but that doesn't mean that the interpretation of Satan as the devil in the book of Job isn't biblical.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That explains why Joseph under Jewish law being the son of Heli is possible.

Come on, he's not a real son. There's no blood relationship.

 

[Skywalker]

Come on, he's not a real son. There's no blood relationship.

By the Jewish law of those days, he was the son of Heli.