Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[gnostic]

Take yourself, science means more to you than religion, for myself, religion cones first, where is the hypocrisy?

you said not in competition, but it is to you, which are contradictory to each other.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

you said not in competition, but it is to you, which are contradictory to each other.

No competition, science and religion are not contradictory, where did you get that from? Religion is my first love, because it is about all that is, whereas science is only about the finite. Life is for a short time, Heaven is for a long time, so my priority is aspiring for the long time. Sir Isaac Newton was a great religious writer and a great scientist, no problem.

 

[gnostic]

No competition, science and religion are not contradictory, where did you get that from? Religion is my first love, because it is about all that is, whereas science is only about the finite. Life is for a short time, Heaven is for a long time, so my priority is aspiring for the long time. Sir Isaac Newton was a great religious writer and a great scientist, no problem.

You said it yourself, one has to be greater than the other…hence competition.

If it isn’t in a competition, where @shunyadragon accept both, then why do you demand that he should become atheist?

Or. Is it because he disagreed with you on the subject of science, that you make such outrageous demands from him?

For instance, he disagreed with you on the subject of the cosmology of the universe.

or is it because, he disagree with you about the usage of the word superstition?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You said it yourself, one has to be greater than the other…hence competition.

If it isn’t in a competition, where @shunyadragon accept both, then why do you demand that he should become atheist?

Or. Is it because he disagreed with you on the subject of science, that you make such outrageous demands from him?

For instance, he disagreed with you on the subject of the cosmology of the universe.

or is it because, he disagree with you about the usage of the word superstition?

Depending on one's inherent love, it will naturally be with that which is most appropriate for the present evolutionary state of the soul, and hence will be greater than the other. Do you love all that is more than a part of all that is, or do you love a part of the whole greater than your (if any) love of the whole?

 

[gnostic]

Depending on one's inherent love, it will naturally be with that which is most appropriate for the present evolutionary state of the soul, and hence will be greater than the other. Do you love all that is more than a part of all that is, or do you love a part of the whole greater than your (if any) love of the whole?

sciences provide knowledge and understanding about nature or anything artificial, as to WHAT they are, and HOW they work, and WHAT you do with such knowledge.

Love isn’t necessary, to understand the natural world.

I don’t need to love, to know that brown bears hibernate in the colder seasons, while polar bears don’t hibernate. I just need to understand it.

i don’t need to love, where the light and heat come from the Sun, i just need to understand that nuclear fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium, will generate enough hear to cause the Sun’s surface, incandescent the plasma of hydrogen, and that will cause heat to radiate and photons and ultraviolet to reach the Earth.

love isn’t necessary, but have passion for science and the curiosity to understand the world, do keep most scientists working.

And of course, I do like a physics & chemistry experiments, as they can be a lot of fun.

Beside all that. I am still curious about the natural world, that I do like learning something new…even though I don’t do experimenting lately.

And sciences are still education, research and works, unlike religion, which are more about ones believe or don’t believe, on personal level.

 

[shunyadragon]

That seems a bit luke-warmish, to be 'hot' is to give yourself to God,

The first problem here, belief in your position id that it has to be "You belief, one of many conflicting beliefs. in your God that you have to give yourself to." Different religions and their variations each claim to be serious about God you have to commit yourself fully to their God.

and to be cold is to be an atheist. You cannot serve two masters without serving one second best, religion or science, which is first for you?

There should be no choice between religion (God) and science. Science provides very consistent reliable knowledge concerning the nature of our physical existence independent of any of the different conflicting religious beliefs or the existence or non-existence of God, The selective rejection of the sciences among religions is based on a very selective limited knowledge of science, Very very few may one hundred or so in the fields of science related to evolution reject the science on religious grounds out of the hundreds of thousands of scientists worldwide.

The tendency among believers that reject the sciences of evolution is to literally make up a corrupt layman's version of pseudoscience.

 

[shunyadragon]

No competition, science and religion are not contradictory, where did you get that from? Religion is my first love, because it is about all that is, whereas science is only about the finite. Life is for a short time, Heaven is for a long time, so my priority is aspiring for the long time. Sir Isaac Newton was a great religious writer and a great scientist, no problem.

In a post to me you stated that I had to choose between science and religion. There is a contradiction here, and you have failed to respond to whether you will the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

sciences provide knowledge and understanding about nature or anything artificial, as to WHAT they are, and HOW they work, and WHAT you do with such knowledge.

Love isn’t necessary, to understand the natural world.

I don’t need to love, to know that brown bears hibernate in the colder seasons, while polar bears don’t hibernate. I just need to understand it.

i don’t need to love, where the light and heat come from the Sun, i just need to understand that nuclear fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium, will generate enough hear to cause the Sun’s surface, incandescent the plasma of hydrogen, and that will cause heat to radiate and photons and ultraviolet to reach the Earth.

love isn’t necessary, but have passion for science and the curiosity to understand the world, do keep most scientists working.

And of course, I do like a physics & chemistry experiments, as they can be a lot of fun.

Beside all that. I am still curious about the natural world, that I do like learning something new…even though I don’t do experimenting lately.

And sciences are still education, research and works, unlike religion, which are more about ones believe or don’t believe, on personal level.

You believe in reality, but for me reality just is, that's the difference. Duality requires a believer and that believed in, non-duality is just reality itself. Try to be in a state of awareness, but instead of being in the normal state of being aware of thoughts, and sounds, etc., be aware of awareness without distraction, and non-duality we be present. Awareness of awareness will still the mind. Proof of the pudding is in the eating, not conceptualizing about what the pudding tastes like.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The first problem here, belief in your position id that it has to be "You belief, one of many conflicting beliefs. in your God that you have to give yourself to." Different religions and their variations each claim to be serious about God you have to commit yourself fully to their God.

There should be no choice between religion (God) and science. Science provides very consistent reliable knowledge concerning the nature of our physical existence independent of any of the different conflicting religious beliefs or the existence or non-existence of God, The selective rejection of the sciences among religions is based on a very selective limited knowledge of science, Very very few may one hundred or so in the fields of science related to evolution reject the science on religious grounds out of the hundreds of thousands of scientists worldwide.

The tendency among believers that reject the sciences of evolution is to literally make up a corrupt layman's version of pseudoscience.

You believe in God in the way you believe in science, for me the reality represented by the word 'God' is present always, no belief is involved.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In a post to me you stated that I had to choose between science and religion. There is a contradiction here, and you have failed to respond to whether you will the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications.

That was not what was implied, I said there was no competition between religion and science, you choose which comes first in your life, religion of science. I don't understand what you mean by "whether you will the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications."?

 

[gnostic]

You believe in reality, but for me reality just is, that's the difference.

Total bs.

I accept reality as it is, too. The universe as it is. Nature as it is.

i just don’t accept the God superstition. I just don’t “God” to anything or everything.

There are no evidence that God even exists, so why bother attributing reality to God. God is just imaginary entity, thought to exist, and have powerful magic or power…make-believe.

You mixed natural world with the nonexistent supernatural one. That’s the superstition.

That’s the difference between you and me.

Enough of this tussle. Let us agree that we will never agree with each other, and leave it that.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Total bs.

I accept reality as it is, too. The universe as it is. Nature as it is.

i just don’t accept the God superstition. I just don’t “God” to anything or everything.

There are no evidence that God even exists, so why bother attributing reality to God. God is just imaginary entity, thought to exist, and have powerful magic or power…make-believe.

You mixed natural world with the nonexistent supernatural one. That’s the superstition.

That’s the difference between you and me.

Enough of this tussle. Let us agree that we will never agree with each other, and leave it that.

You do not understand what was explained to you, there is duality involved in you accepting reality for what it is, you and the reality you accept. When one is in a state on non-duality, there is no you and reality, there is just reality.

 

[shunyadragon]

That was not what was implied, I said there was no competition between religion and science, you choose which comes first in your life, religion of science. I don't understand what you mean by "whether you will the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications."?

It is what you specifically said.

I do not believe the question is difficult, I missed a word, but the meaning is clear.

". . . . whether you will accept the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications."?

You believe in God in the way you believe in science,

Absolutely no, I never remotely implied that

for me the reality represented by the word 'God' is present always, no belief is involved.

This failed to respond with an explanation of your previous post. You are emphasizing the necessity of your belief in your view of God in your post as opposed to mine to be serious bout God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, that's what it's all about .. our souls are aware of why we say what we do..
..even if we unconsciously choose one thing over another for worldly reason, and ignore
them.

Actually, by far 95% of everyone chooses on of the variations of the religion they ere raised in The worldly choice involves traditional tribal and family ties.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is what you specifically said.

I do not believe the question is difficult, I missed a word, but the meaning is clear.

". . . . whether you will accept the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications."?


Absolutely no, I never remotely implied that


This failed to respond with an explanation of your previous post. You are emphasizing the necessity of your belief in your view of God in your post as opposed to mine to be serious bout God.

Here are my exact words, "You cannot serve two masters without serving one second best, religion or science, which is first for you?" This is not implying that you should choose one over the other to serve first, it was just asking which of the two are you presently serving first, science or religion. So which is it?

No, I do not accept the contemporary scientific view of evolution, consciousness can never in all eternity arise from unconsciousness.

I am happy you like science, and I am even more pleased you are religious, that is all.

 

[gnostic]

That was not what was implied, I said there was no competition between religion and science, you choose which comes first in your life, religion of science. I don't understand what you mean by "whether you will the contemporary sciences of evolution, physics, and cosmology without religious qualifications."?

Religions are always about the the people and what they believe in; none of the religions, are studies of nature., not even your Pantheism.

The studies of nature, do include physics, biology and astronomy, hence these are belong to the Natural Sciences, which required each sciences and their respective fields to follow the specifications of being falsifiable and tested in accordance with the Scientific Method.

The science of evolution is biology. B-I-O-L-O-G-Y. Evolution isn’t a separate science to biology.

You cannot study evolution without genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry and many more. And Evolution isn’t restricted to human evolution.

The question is why you would you think any “Natural Sciences” would need the ”religious qualifications”, when no religions actually teach biology, physics or cosmology.

Can you show me anywhere in religion, where it teaches the biology of plant life, of birds, reptiles, mammals or fishes?

Can you show me anywhere in religions, where they teach us gravity or quantum mechanics or chemical reactions?

Can you even show me anywhere in any religion, that teach what cause the planets orbiting the sun, or anything about stars, globular clusters, nebulae, galaxies, etc?

Religions teaches nothing about nature, and whatever briefs and vague descriptions they used, they are often wrong.

Case in point: Why would any current biologists take religions seriously, when they assume that god created from soil like silt or clay? What possible qualification that the Bible or Quran or any other scriptures & teachings, have to offer?

I don’t know anything about pantheism, but what biology, physics or astronomy that pantheism actually teaches?

Religious qualifications? Is that a joke?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Religions are always about the the people and what they believe in; none of the religions, are studies of nature., not even your Pantheism.

The studies of nature, do include physics, biology and astronomy, hence these are belong to the Natural Sciences, which required each sciences and their respective fields to follow the specifications of being falsifiable and tested in accordance with the Scientific Method.

The science of evolution is biology. B-I-O-L-O-G-Y. Evolution isn’t a separate science to biology.

You cannot study evolution without genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry and many more. And Evolution isn’t restricted to human evolution.

The question is why you would you think any “Natural Sciences” would need the ”religious qualifications”, when no religions actually teach biology, physics or cosmology.

Can you show me anywhere in religion, where it teaches the biology of plant life, of birds, reptiles, mammals or fishes?

Can you show me anywhere in religions, where they teach us gravity or quantum mechanics or chemical reactions?

Can you even show me anywhere in any religion, that teach what cause the planets orbiting the sun, or anything about stars, globular clusters, nebulae, galaxies, etc?

Religions teaches nothing about nature, and whatever briefs and vague descriptions they used, they are often wrong.

Case in point: Why would any current biologists take religions seriously, when they assume that god created from soil like silt or clay? What possible qualification that the Bible or Quran or any other scriptures & teachings, have to offer?

I don’t know anything about pantheism, but what biology, physics or astronomy that pantheism actually teaches?

Religious qualifications? Is that a joke?

Without an appropriate and efficacious religious practice, you do not know what and who you really are in the context of all that is, so what is the point, AI can learn and know much more about science than you do. But AI can never compete in the context of religion, and never will.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

How could it exist without One G-d 's commandment for its existence, please, right?

By being a brute fact. By being the product of a brute fact where no god exists or has ever existed.

Why to discuss a philosophical term/s (brute fact) in a Religious Debate forum, philosophy has an independent forum here in RF, right, please?

Regards
__________________________

Philosophy

Discussion/debate of known philosophical literature

www.religiousforums.com

" In contemporary philosophy, a brute fact is a fact that cannot be explained in terms of a deeper, more "fundamental" fact. There are two main ways to explain something: say what "brought it about", or describe it at a more "fundamental" level. Wikipedia "

Brute fact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ppp]

Why to discuss a philosophical term/s (brute fact) in a Religious Debate forum, philosophy has an independent forum here in RF, right, please?

The discussion of religion is entirely dependent on philosophy.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The discussion of religion is entirely dependent on philosophy.

Agreed, a discussion maybe, but religious practice itself is meant to be a non-dual, non-verbal practice, an exercise in transcending the thinking mind.