Why Diplomacy wont succeed in Palestine

[metis]

I don't know how to deal with Hamss, I really don't. It's incredibly difficult. Whatever the situation involved in its genesis, we've gotta deal with the situation on the ground.

But if your the leader of a country that is getting attacked as Israel has been, you don't have that luxury of just throwing up your hands and saying that you don't know and not doing anything to try and stop it.

I am much clearer on the West Bank situation. They're highly distinct situations.

Somewhat, but certainly not entirely. A reminder that el-Fatah not only had a violent and anti-Israel history, but also that Abbas himself was very much a part of the effort to destroy Israel. Based on both past and present history, I really don't have any doubt that Abbas and el-Fatah in general would destroy the state of Israel if they could. When given the opportunity to take actions that could lead to peace, they "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity", as was said about Arafat.

Maybe things will change if the P.A. realizes that they're not going to defeat Israel and they finally do what's best for their own people instead of teaching hatred to their children in schools and also actually start punishing those in the WB that try to kill Israeli civilians. So far, they haven't done either, but they sure have been good about moving money into Swiss bank accounts. A large part of Hamas' support was because the P.A. was so corrupt and inept.

 

[Kirran]

But if your the leader of a country that is getting attacked as Israel has been, you don't have that luxury of just throwing up your hands and saying that you don't know and not doing anything to try and stop it.

Yes, that's true, but I don't feel equipped to answer, as I don't know what workable solution there is short of the longer-term solutions I've described i.e. working with the moderate factions of the Palestinian government, helped by having begun a genuine peace process. I am equipped only to criticise from a great distance.

Somewhat, but certainly not entirely. A reminder that el-Fatah not only had a violent and anti-Israel history, but also that Abbas himself was very much a part of the effort to destroy Israel. Based on both past and present history, I really don't have any doubt that Abbas and el-Fatah in general would destroy the state of Israel if they could. When given the opportunity to take actions that could lead to peace, they "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity", as was said about Arafat.

Maybe things will change if the P.A. realizes that they're not going to defeat Israel and they finally do what's best for their own people instead of teaching hatred to their children in schools and also actually start punishing those in the WB that try to kill Israeli civilians. So far, they haven't done either, but they sure have been good about moving money into Swiss bank accounts. A large part of Hamas' support was because the P.A. was so corrupt and inept.

Not that there is any excuse, but it must be so hard to acknowledge that yes, this land has been taken, we're never getting it back. And to work with a group that took that land from them. Obviously, they need to do so anyway, and there are definitely factions within Fatah who are eager to do so to attain peace. And we must hope they come to the fore (which would be helped by a bit less bulldozing of houses), although sadly it seems the opposite trend is in motion.

It's all terrible, really. Nobody's blameless. Hamas is the worst, but it's six and half a dozen with the Israeli government and Fatah.

 

[YmirGF]

Is that really an Islamic belief? That once a territory is under Islamic control it must always be? That is a pretty darn evil concept.

It is fairly accurate. Once Islamic armies have pacified an area, they are deemed to be Muslim lands till Judgment Day. The idea is that they are the authorized regents on Earth, doing the will of God. Who knew?

 

[leibowde84]

It is fairly accurate. Once Islamic armies have pacified an area, they are deemed to be Muslim lands till Judgment Day. The idea is that they are the authorized regents on Earth, doing the will of God. Who knew?

It seems quite barbaric and unreasonable/unrealistic to me. It opens the door to wars in the name of religious beliefs.

 

[columbus]

Yes, that's true, but I don't feel equipped to answer, as I don't know what workable solution there is short of the longer-term solutions I've described i.e. working with the moderate factions of the Palestinian government, helped by having begun a genuine peace process. I am equipped only to criticise from a great distance.



Not that there is any excuse, but it must be so hard to acknowledge that yes, this land has been taken, we're never getting it back. And to work with a group that took that land from them. Obviously, they need to do so anyway, and there are definitely factions within Fatah who are eager to do so to attain peace. And we must hope they come to the fore (which would be helped by a bit less bulldozing of houses), although sadly it seems the opposite trend is in motion.

It's all terrible, really. Nobody's blameless. Hamas is the worst, but it's six and half a dozen with the Israeli government and Fatah.

Remember:

Hamas leaders are firmly Islamic that believe in the Hadith teaching that once land is under Islamic control, it must always remain under Islamic control.
This is one of the facts on the ground. It is not some fringy belief, clearly Servant believes it. It is why so many Palestinian people would rather live and raise their children in violence and poverty than recognize Israel.
Tom

 

[Kirran]

Remember:

Hamas leaders are firmly Islamic that believe in the Hadith teaching that once land is under Islamic control, it must always remain under Islamic control.
This is one of the facts on the ground. It is not some fringy belief, clearly Servant believes it. It is why so many Palestinian people would rather live and raise their children in violence and poverty than recognize Israel.
Tom

I'm against Hamas unreservedly.

 

[metis]

It's all terrible, really. Nobody's blameless. Hamas is the worst, but it's six and half a dozen with the Israeli government and Fatah.

The Israelis are just as onerous as Hamas? Really?

 

[Kirran]

The Israelis are just as onerous as Hamas? Really?

Sorry, I must have been unclear.

You've got Hamas, which is just terrible.

Then you have the Israeli government and Fatah, which both have more moderate peace-minded factions and more extremist factions inciting violence. In both cases, the latter seem to be strengthening.

 

[columbus]

I'm against Hamas unreservedly.

Fatah is politicallly weaker. Otherwise not very different.
Tom

 

[Kirran]

Fatah is politicallly weaker. Otherwise not very different.
Tom

What?

 

[Nakosis]

When a group believes that Bible gives them the right to steal lands and kick out her citizens then you know diplomacy wont work.
Do u really believe that zionists will give up the illegal settlements and return all to the Palestinians? Then u are very naive person. They believe all the lands of Levant and some parts of Iraq belongs to them.

Guns gave them acces to Palestine and at the end of the day its gonna be gun that makes them flee. This is the nature of mankind. Conquering by force. Read how many times Palestine changed hands during the Roman-Persian wars. Whoever believes in diplomacy and two-state solution must be kidding himself.


I know 100% for sure that Zionists hate to go back to the border of 1948.

Might usually makes right.

Diplomacy requires give and take. You can offer up something in exchange for some benefit you seek.

What really does Palestine have that anyone wants? Some people hold to an idealism about humanitarianism. People in power act only when they are going to see some benefit for themselves. Governments may show a token of support for humanitarianism but they aren't really going to act until they see how they are going to benefit from it.

 

[dust1n]

But you didn't answer my question, namely what do you think Israel should do? I don't know where you live, but let me ask you if the country you lived in had 6000 rockets/missiles fired into it, aimed at your civilians, what would you expect your country to do? If you were the leader of your country under these circumstances, what actions would you take?

Probably allow my citizens to build new condos on and across internationally recognized borders. Why, what would you do?

 

[Flankerl]

robably allow my citizens to build new condos on and across internationally recognized borders.

Demarcation lines =/= Borders

 

[dust1n]

Demarcation lines =/= Borders

Sorry. Probably allow my citizens to build new condos on and across internationally recognized demarcation lines. There we go.

 

[metis]

Probably allow my citizens to build new condos on and across internationally recognized borders. Why, what would you do?

The last time I heard, condos are not a defense against rockets.

 

[dust1n]

The last time I heard, condos are not a defense against rockets.

...?

 

[Flankerl]

Sorry. Probably allow my citizens to build new condos on and across internationally recognized demarcation lines. There we go.

Care to give a source that doing so might be against International law?

 

[dust1n]

Care to give a source that doing so might be against International law?

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law,[1][2][3][4][5] however Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]

Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980.[10][11][12] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[13] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The position of successive Israeli governments is that all authorized settlements are entirely legal and consistent with international law,[15] despite Israel's armistice agreements having all being with High Contracting Parties.[16] In practice, Israel does not accept that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies de jure, but has stated that on humanitarian issues it will govern itself de facto by its provisions, without specifying which these are.[17][18] The majority of legal scholars hold the settlements to violate international law, while others have offered dissenting views supporting the Israeli position.[2]

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Flankerl]

So what you are saying is that there are varied opinions.

Also fun fact: The Golan Heights have been longer a part of Israel than Syria.

 

[gsa]

When a group believes that Bible gives them the right to steal lands and kick out her citizens then you know diplomacy wont work.
Do u really believe that zionists will give up the illegal settlements and return all to the Palestinians? Then u are very naive person. They believe all the lands of Levant and some parts of Iraq belongs to them.

Guns gave them acces to Palestine and at the end of the day its gonna be gun that makes them flee. This is the nature of mankind. Conquering by force. Read how many times Palestine changed hands during the Roman-Persian wars. Whoever believes in diplomacy and two-state solution must be kidding himself.


I know 100% for sure that Zionists hate to go back to the border of 1948.

Yawn. The Zionists, secular and religious, make historically absurd but somewhat morally compelling claims to the land. The Palestinians, secular and religious, make historically more sound and morally compelling claims to the land. We on the outside watch you fight over territory half the size of Michigan's upper peninsula. And you each scream "God is great" in your respective Semitic tongues.

Overall, I'm with the Palestinians. But only on secular grounds. Only because they're oppressed and ill served by their Israeli and elite masters. And truthfully, though you won't appreciate it, they'll only know real liberation when they purge themselves of the very religion that you believe gives them a just claim.