Why do atheists talk to believers so much?

[Trailblazer]

His attributes (just, loving, etc) sound like his nature. I dont know how you tell them apart.

Do you have another way to describe the differences?

I read the exercpt already.

Yes, just and loving are part of God's nature.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Trailblazer

God, the Creator of the universe, is all-knowing, all-loving and all-merciful.

Just as the physical sun shines on the whole world, so the light of God is shed upon all Creation. “As the sun ripens the fruits of the earth, and gives life and warmth to all living beings, so shines the Sun of Truth on all souls, filling them with the fire of Divine love and understanding.”1

It is impossible for any mortal mind to truly understand the reality of God. Whatever is created can never comprehend or describe its creator. A table, for example, is incapable of understanding the craftsman who made it, even though his skills and attributes may be reflected in his creation. An Unknowable God | What Bahá’ís Believe

This is confusing.

Gods nature (his intrinsic or essense is merciful)

The reality of god is his nature. He cannot be seperated into three: unknown, is known (he is merciful), but not his reality of self.

Ones nature (nature) is the qualities and deposition of a person or thing. Its traits and characteristics: such as loving, just, mercifal.

Gods nature is also truth that gives people understanding. It is the meaning and metaphor of the sun shining and its nature is how it interacts with its believers.

These are gods unique nature.

What do you mean by you cannot define an unknown god?

I know you cant, but my question is how can you not given the above?

What do you exactly mean by nature; what is the definition of the word apart from how the dictionary desribes it ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, in christianity, gods nature is jesus christ. As the son of god whether he is god or not, his humanity and relationship with the creator defines his nature.

Yet Bahai say they believe the bible but not the relationship between father and son (trinity). So, who is the son in relation to the father?

Usually, human beings take off the nature of our parents. We are not our parents but they are a part of us.

What is the definition of nature apart from the word attributes?

a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something

Feature is the characteristic of something
Merciful is a part of god

the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

Merciful is a quality that determines its character. Ones character is also a part of his nature.

What is ones nature a part from his attributes? (This is a general question not a god-one)

 

[viole]

I have wondered for many years, why anyone would even bother to argue with someone about religion, if they truly don't believe there is a God? If I truly believed there wasn't a God, I wouldn't waste my time. It has made me wonder, if maybe somewhere deep down they have doubts, and are trying to assure themselves they are right. I mean after all, eternity is a long time to regret it if they are wrong.

Does your God tell you that abortion is wrong? Or that gay marriages are wrong? Or what about euthanasia?

If no, then you have a point.

If yes, then we have every right to try to knock down and ridicule that belief in imaginary beings that is interfering with our society.

Ciao

- viole

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Does your God tell you that abortion is wrong? Or that gay marriages are wrong? Or what about euthanasia?

If no, then you have a point.

If yes, then we have every right to try to knock down and ridicule that belief in imaginary beings that is interfering with our society.

Ciao

- viole

You can try, but since God is not mocked, in the end you will lose. He always wins.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not have “my own God.”

Every believer does. There are as many god-concepts as there believers (more, actually, because of polytheists).

There is just One God, a God who loves and nurtures all of humanity, believers and nonbelievers.

There is one god that you do believe in and countless ones you don't.

 

[wandering peacefully]

@Trailblazer said "God does not want anyone to believe in Him unless they search and find Him using their own innate intelligence and decide to believe of their own free will. These are the criteria set forth by God, according to Baha’u’llah. God would not be doing anyone an favor by making Himself known because that takes away the need for the effort that people need to exert to prove that they are worthy of knowing God exists. Of course God already knows who is worthy and unworthy, but God wants us to prove our worthiness to ourselves and thereby become worthy."

"Yes, as matter of fact, many atheists I have spoken with said that they are looking for God and asked me to show them the way. "

Hmm. I looked at the links but didn't see anyone asking you to show them the way. It was just people making fun of you and being sarcastic. Maybe you will have better luck in this forum?

I hope you are able to find your worthiness some day. The rest of your posts seemed to be long opinions on your personal beliefs which I stated I was not interested in before you posted them to me. I am not very good at arguing in circles like your other forum mates. So I will leave it at that. Best wishes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gods nature (his intrinsic or essense is merciful)

The reality of god is his nature. He cannot be seperated into three: unknown, is known (he is merciful), but not his reality of self.

Ones nature (nature) is the qualities and deposition of a person or thing. Its traits and characteristics: such as loving, just, mercifal.

Gods nature is also truth that gives people understanding. It is the meaning and metaphor of the sun shining and its nature is how it interacts with its believers.

These are gods unique nature.

What you are describing are God’s Attributes or Qualities, things we can know about God..

What do you mean by you cannot define an unknown god?

I know you cant, but my question is how can you not given the above?

What do you exactly mean by nature; what is the definition of the word apart from how the dictionary desribes it ?

I mean we cannot know the Essence of God.

Essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

synonyms: quintessence, soul, spirit, nature; More

https://www.google.com/search

We cannot know the intrinsic nature of God in the sense of knowing what God is comprised of, how God functions, where God resides. The Essence of God transcends all human limitations and forms and is beyond any human comprehension

 

[Trailblazer]

Every believer does. There are as many god-concepts as there believers (more, actually, because of polytheists).

Every believer has their own “conception” of God, but they do not have their own God.

Conceptions do not equate to Reality. In Reality, there is only One God.

There is one god that you do believe in and countless ones you don't.

There is only one “God concept” I believe in and countless ones I don’t believe in.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can try, but since God is not mocked, in the end you will lose. He always wins.

Yes God wins, always... It is sad that people who call themselves rational thinkers cannot figure out why an “Omnipotent God” always wins.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284​

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer said "God does not want anyone to believe in Him unless they search and find Him using their own innate intelligence and decide to believe of their own free will. These are the criteria set forth by God, according to Baha’u’llah. God would not be doing anyone an favor by making Himself known because that takes away the need for the effort that people need to exert to prove that they are worthy of knowing God exists. Of course God already knows who is worthy and unworthy, but God wants us to prove our worthiness to ourselves and thereby become worthy."

I think I should correct that because that came out wrong. I cannot say who God wants to believe in Him. All I can say is what Baha'u'llah wrote, that God wants people to search and find Him using their own innate intelligence and decide to believe of their own free will. That does not mean that God would not want people who did not search that way to believe in Him.

"Yes, as matter of fact, many atheists I have spoken with said that they are looking for God and asked me to show them the way. "

Hmm. I looked at the links but didn't see anyone asking you to show them the way. It was just people making fun of you and being sarcastic. Maybe you will have better luck in this forum?

Sure, they make fun of me. What do you think that says about them? They also make fun of Christians left and right. They are grown men in their 70s and some of them act like little children. By the way, they could not cut it on the primarily atheist forum we all used to post on because they were so rude. The atheist who runs that forum has certain standards of behavior he expects people to live up to.

I am not looking for luck. I just care about people. If they do not post to me I do not post to them. No other Baha'i would ever post to those atheists who were so sarcastic and rude, only me because I cared. And that is how they treated me. But no matter, they have disappeared again.

You think you know what they have said to me for the last four years by reading a few recent posts? You don't. They have readily admitted that they would like to believe in God if there was evidence. I am not lying about that. I do not lie and I have no reason to lie. They are sarcastic because they are angry at God since He won't bring them a personal message so they take it out on me and the Christians. That is childish.

I hope you are able to find your worthiness some day. The rest of your posts seemed to be long opinions on your personal beliefs which I stated I was not interested in before you posted them to me. I am not very good at arguing in circles like your other forum mates. So I will leave it at that. Best wishes.

All I care about is that I am worthy of God. I do not like arguing with people either and I certainly do not care about convincing you or anyone else of anything I believe. I am a firm believer in free will and the power of choice. I wish you all the best.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah. I went back to read my posts. You Must read them so you can reply based on them rather than whats already predetermined in your mind. Take your time. I do have all at the moment.

What you are describing are God’s Attributes or Qualities, things we can know about God..

I mean we cannot know the Essence of God.

Essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

synonyms: quintessence, soul, spirit, nature; More

https://www.google.com/search

We cannot know the intrinsic nature of God in the sense of knowing what God is comprised of, how God functions, where God resides. The Essence of God transcends all human limitations and forms and is beyond any human comprehension

Essence is attributes. I listed the definitions already. You have to read my posts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Again. His nature is his features and attributes.

Merciful and justice are attributes that make up the quality, nature, and esssense of a given thing.

Essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

You MUST read my posts. You also need to think for yourself. It's early so I'm being blunt.

Essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

synonyms: quintessence, soul, spirit, nature; More

Definition of attribute. 1 : a quality, character, or characteristic ascribed to someone or something. has leadership attributes.

the combination of traits and qualities distinguishing the individual nature of a person or thing. 2. one such distinguishing quality; characteristic. 3. moral force; integrity: a man of character.
quality, attribute, property refer to a distinguishing feature or characteristic of a person, thing, or group. A quality is an innate or acquired characteristic that, in some particular, determines the nature and behavior of a person or thing: the qualities of patience and perseverance.

You must think for yourself.

A person nature is:

1. Quality of something that determines his nature
2. Characteristic of something

A persons essence/noun (his nature) is determine by his qualities as well as what describes his nature (the characteristics/adjectives)

If you want to know what the noun is you describe its nature by its attributes (he is tall, with blue eyes, and black hair) which are the adjectives that describe the nature of it (human being, Joe smoe)

Explain how merciful and just are seperate than being the essence of gods nature. The soul or nature of god is mercifical and just. How not?​

You must read my posts and think for yourself so you won't need to read definitions I've already listed with my own comments describing how your gods nature are the sum of its attributes.

Read 142 again. Explain in your own words how I'm (and bahaullah) are wrong without using the dictionary.​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Beyond Vibration: Developing Your Essence
I read this (fourth paragraph) a while back reading how our characteristics such as personality and values (creativity and peace for me) define and describe our essene. So after going through who I am based on and defined by my essence, my soul got a different and better outlook in life


God is merciful. He IS just. He IS love. These are values that describe the nature or Who god is. When you experience love, you experience god (or is it joe smoe? or a cat? or chair?). When you experience god is just, you are experiencing god.

@Trailblazer Its not complex nor mystical. It is part of self growth. When god is these things he becomes in your belief (well, in others beliefs not bahai) the cornerstone of your being. He is a part of your essence.

It cannot be experienced through a prophet. Youd be experiencing that prophets essence not gods. While bahai thats alright but you guys are rare in the god-population where experiencing god is direct and the prophets point to it not define it (taking out trinitarians which bahai seem to mirror) is the gist of a relationship with god.

The difference is not all of us need scripture, incarnations, and manifestations since, to god-believers, god has the ability to connect with directly. Its much more powerful and definitely more personal.

Thats my experience. I dont call essence, nature, spirit, values god. Thats all religious view. But I do understand it since we are all human. Our culture defines our essence; so, there is no thin line that is god in all humanity. It doesnt lead to one goal. However, we do have similar goals or journey views that define our lives regardless if we call it essence, value, personality, or god.

Reference

Essence meaning ones attributes: core values and personality (love and justice) that make up the qualities and charactericis thus nature of a person or thing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, just and loving are part of God's nature.

You said you cant define it. How do you know these are part of something you cannot define?

Thats like saying X has four legs, hair, teeth, and is loving to its young.

I ask, what is it?

You say you dont know.

Thats very confusing and not at all a god description of something meaningful. You dont know exactly you are describing to give those attributes any meaning to it source (to the rest of us).

I KNOW that is not important to you. I know what you believe.

Just sharing my point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Every believer has their own “conception” of God, but they do not have their own God.

Conceptions do not equate to Reality. In Reality, there is only One God.

There is only one “God concept” I believe in and countless ones I don’t believe in.

It seems like you’re saying the same thing I am with slightly different words.

The point I’m trying to get at is that all those people you think were wrong believed just as sincerely as you, were as convinced as you are that they were right, could show just as well as you can that their beliefs flowed from their religion’s sources the way yours flow from Baha’i scriptures, and were as confident in the truth of their sources as you are in yours... yet you say these believers are wrong and you’re right.

From my perspective as an outsider, you seem to be just another example of a much wider trend, and I see no reason to put more stock in your beliefs than in the religions we both agree are baseless (despite their many sincere, devout believers).

 

[tayla]

Atheists just have a different perspective on life, one I try to understand. Not many atheists try to understand my perspective, but that is not my goal.

I find it odd that atheists seem to be ignorant of their assumption of materialism and whether or not this is philosophically justifiable. But I understand their rejection of the view of knowledge via revelation such as provided by religions and spiritual paths. Seems to me that both sides have some philosophical pondering to do about why they believe such and such as trustworthy truth and knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I understand their rejection of the view of knowledge via revelation such as provided by religions and spiritual paths. Seems to me that both sides have some philosophical pondering to do about why they believe such and such as trustworthy truth and knowledge.

Realistically, how else could humanity as a whole know anything about God or what God wants except by revelation to Messengers of God who establish religions? That is what I have been asking atheists for five years but not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. No, God communicating directly to everyone makes no sense at all and it would not accomplish anything, except that everyone would know God exists... But why should God make sure everyone believes He exists? Why does God owe people that?

Then what would happen? How would they know what God wants of them? Is God going to reveal the equivalent of the scriptures to each and every human being on earth, all 7.44 billion people? Get real. How would that solve any of the world's problems? The argument for God communicating directly to everyone is so full of holes it sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems like you’re saying the same thing I am with slightly different words.

The point I’m trying to get at is that all those people you think were wrong believed just as sincerely as you, were as convinced as you are that they were right, could show just as well as you can that their beliefs flowed from their religion’s sources the way yours flow from Baha’i scriptures, and were as confident in the truth of their sources as you are in yours... yet you say these believers are wrong and you’re right.

No, I am not saying they are all wrong, but some of them are wrong if they believe in more than one God, or if they believe that God is other than what was revealed in the scriptures. If they believe in a God or gods based upon scriptures that have been altered and changed, then they believe in a God or gods of their own imagination, not the real God.

All the divinely revealed religions were right as revealed, before mankind changed and altered the scriptures to suit their fancies. As Baha’is, we are not supposed to distinguish between any of the Messengers of God and elevate one over the other. The following passage explains why.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60​

So, all of the Messengers (Manifestations of God) were a reflection of God’s Will and Purpose, but that Will and Purpose changes over time, so the older religions established by older Messengers such as Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are not a reflection of God’s Will and Purpose for this new day in history. They were all “right” for their age in history, but they are not what God wants us to follow in this New Age in history.

From my perspective as an outsider, you seem to be just another example of a much wider trend, and I see no reason to put more stock in your beliefs than in the religions we both agree are baseless (despite their many sincere, devout believers).

To say that all religions are part of a wider trend is true, but to say that because of that there is no difference between religions is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. religion a is x, y and z
2. religion b is x, y and z
3. religion c is x, y and z
4. religion d is x, y and z

5. Therefore, religion e is x, y and z

In a sense it is true that all religions are the same because all the major religions share the same eternal spiritual verities. This is spiritual and not material truth so it will never be abrogated; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. However, all religions are also different because all religions have a different primary message and different social teachings and laws.

There is one important difference between the Baha’i Faith and all the older religions. The Bab inaugurated a whole new religious Cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment (because Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions of the past). This is a New Day of God that is unprecedented in human history; so it is not the same old same old. We are living in the “time of the end” referred to in the Bible, but it is not going to be the end of the world. Quite the contrary: it is the Beginning of a New World wherein the Kingdom of God will be established on earth.

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60​

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it. This is a New Day of God and God has a different Purpose for humanity than God had in former ages.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it...” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116​

 

[tayla]

Realistically, how else could humanity as a whole know anything about God or what God wants except by revelation to Messengers of God who establish religions?

Yes, my point exactly. This is why I don't believe revealed knowledge is trustworthy, because only science in its proper domain using the scientific method can provide provable truth. Anything apart from that is speculation, best understood via philosophy (but not via revealed religions or revealed spiritual paths).