Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Whoitbe]

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

 

[Levite]

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

Whether you think that Torah was given by God to the Jewish people, or whether you think that Torah was written by Jewish authors for the Jewish people, the point remains the same. It's a Jewish text, with Jewish rules, intended for Jews, and designed to be interpreted by Jewish methodologies.

I get that Christians feel that somehow their covenant with Jesus entitles them to connect to Jewish text. But I have never understood the contention that while Jesus' covenant somehow frees them from the obligation to keep the commandments of the Old Covenant, they still free free to cite and rely upon those of the commandments that they like or relate to (like the Ten Commandments, or, in many cases those concerning homosexuality and other forbidden sexual relations; but they can dispense with those that they dislike or do not relate to, like keeping kosher, rules of shaatnez (forbidden mixtures, like linen and wool), or observing the holidays.

It's always seemed to me that Torah, and the obligation to do mitzvot (commandments) is entire: one either accepts the entirety of Torah and the attendant obligations, or one accepts none of it. But in Torah there is no rule of halfsies: one can redefine certain obligations using the rules of halakhah, but one cannot simply cherry-pick a few mitzvot you like, and then dispense with all of those you feel are too confining or troublesome, with a shrug and a whistle.

At least, that's how I understand things.

 

[Dena]

I've asked this same question. Usually I don't get a good answer but there are some who have a logical explanation. I disagree but it's still logical. Hopefully someone will speak up here.

 

[Zardoz]

I know that not everyone here is convinced that Noachide Law is authentic Halacha; or just a modern invention. To me, the Ten Commandments are of course given to the Jews, but they also contain most of the Noachide Laws. Therefore it is of benefit for the non-Jew to honor them. To be sure, the Shabbat law is problematic, but there is little chance that they would observe it as a Jew does.

Shalom

 

[Beta]

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people?

Forgive me but this is as far as I read. When the foundation is false everything else is false and a waste of time.
The 10 Commandments were given to the children of Israel - a mixed multitude Ex.12; Ex.20. In the same chapter we read that all who lived alongside them came under the same law. Nowhere is stated that the Commandments (the spiritual laws mentioned in Rom.7 as holy, just and good) were given to the Jews only.
Jacob or Israel (as re-named by God) had 12 sons and not all were jewish Gen.35v22.
The Commandments are mentioned in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles so they can not be meaningless to Christians ???????:no:

 

[Beta]

I know that not everyone here is convinced that Noachide Law is authentic Halacha; or just a modern invention. To me, the Ten Commandments are of course given to the Jews, but they also contain most of the Noachide Laws. Therefore it is of benefit for the non-Jew to honor them. To be sure, the Shabbat law is problematic, but there is little chance that they would observe it as a Jew does.
Shalom

To be sure we (Christians) are to honour the 7th day Sabbath as instructed by God Lev.23, and not as observed by Jews who were not the only ones to receive the Commandments (please see my prev.post). Jesus had much to say about wrong jewish practices and we should not look to them for guidance. JESUS is OUR Teacher and EXAMPLE and we need no other.

 

[Beta]

...... or observing the holidays.

Do you not mean ' the holy days ' ?
There surely is a vast difference between traditional christian holidays and God's commanded holy days ? :yes:

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

I don't confine my religious practice just to Christianity, but the intrinsic worth and wisdom of the ten commandments always seemed to me as being both inspired and yet simultaneously common sense, and has always been the general principles on which my conscience is based.

IOW, the ten commandments to me are not something that merely needs compliance because they are commandments of G-d, but they speak to my heart directly as being self evidently the way all human beings should live their life.

 

[james2ko]

Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should?

Mar 2:27 "And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, [not just the Jews] and not man for the Sabbath." [emphasis mine]

One of the definitions, according to Thayer's Lexicon, for this word is: a)generically, to include all human individuals. If it was just for the Jews, Jesus must have made some kind of mistake.

See here for further discussion about the Sabbath and Mosaic Law.

 

[Whoitbe]

Forgive me but this is as far as I read. When the foundation is false everything else is false and a waste of time.
The 10 Commandments were given to the children of Israel - a mixed multitude Ex.12; Ex.20. In the same chapter we read that all who lived alongside them came under the same law. Nowhere is stated that the Commandments (the spiritual laws mentioned in Rom.7 as holy, just and good) were given to the Jews only.
Jacob or Israel (as re-named by God) had 12 sons and not all were jewish Gen.35v22.
The Commandments are mentioned in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles so they can not be meaningless to Christians ???????:no:

Right, but the children of Israel were the Jewish people through technicality. Technically, even though the term Jew comes from yehuda(Judah), a Levi or a danite is just as much entitled to the laws apart from a few minor ones regarding obligations upon the Levites and kohanim(priestly sons of aharon). There may have been mixed multitudes among them -but they were not counted as the children of Israel. And exodus 20 doesn't say anything about a mixed multitude. If you're reading from a bible translated from a Septuagint it might (or in other words, a bible translated from a translation of the bible - I.e. The kjv and most other bibles on the market), maybe it does say that. There is no question that the Israelites were, in the contemporary sense of the word, Jews. As the word Jew is effectively a blanket term for Israelites.


49. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who resides in your midst." מט. תּוֹרָה אַחַת יִהְיֶה לָאֶזְרָח וְלַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכְכֶם:

This is what you're referring to to support your claim? Correct me if I'm wrong, but... There's more than one law. Do you count the 10 commandments as one law... Or the entire Torah? Because, there's a lot more than 10 commandments. According to our tradition (the Jewish one), there's 613 specific ones. But if you counted each and every one of them, there'd be thousands. So, you explain to me what "one law" means when this chapter is talking about Pesach(Passover). If you understand this verse citing one law to mean G-d's law, then since this is before the ten commandments/Torah was given(after all, this entire chapter/parsha deals with when the Jews were in egypt), what laws/religious customs do you think the majority population would be/were following? My guess perforce, under these pretenses, is that they would only be obligated to follow the noahide commandments and ones which came in between until this point, such as circumcision. When I say they, I'm referring to Israelites.

Let's take a look at chapter 20, shall we? G-d says:

2. "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. ב. אָנֹכִי יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים:

Who is this "you?" Did he take the Nations out of Egypt? So, if we can understand that G-d did take the Israelites out of Egypt, *then certainly, these verses in the sane chapter and parsha:

9. Six days may you work and perform all your labor, ט. שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וְעָשִׂיתָ כָּל מְלַאכְתֶּךָ:

10. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is in your cities. י. וְיוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבָּת לַי־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לֹא תַעֲשֶׂה כָל מְלָאכָה אַתָּה וּבִנְךָ וּבִתֶּךָ עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ וּבְהֶמְתֶּךָ וְגֵרְךָ אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ:

17. But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin." יז. וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל-הָעָם אַל-תִּירָאוּ כִּי לְבַעֲבוּר נַסּוֹת אֶתְכֶם בָּא הָאֱלֹהִים וּבַעֲבוּר תִּהְיֶה יִרְאָתוֹ עַל-פְּנֵיכֶם לְבִלְתִּי תֶחֱטָאוּ:

And every single time in this context G-d says the word "you", it is implying the children of Israel.*To further my point, *it*says "your stranger who is in your cities." Obviously it was necessary to seperate between a stranger and an Israelite. And also, it says IN YOIR CITIES. As in the land which G-d gave to the jews.**

So, why does G-d speak to the jews in this commandment following commandment:

12. Honor your father and your mother, in order that your days be lengthened on the land that the Lord, your God, is giving you. יב. כַּבֵּד אֶת אָבִיךָ וְאֶת אִמֶּךָ לְמַעַן יַאֲרִכוּן יָמֶיךָ עַל הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ:

 

[Whoitbe]

Also, Jacob became Israel. It says the children of israel. And who are the children of Israel? Jacobs children. Not Esau's, the moabites, or any other nation which is not a descendant of israel. And if I'm not mistaken, Leah and Rachel converted.

 

[Scott C.]

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

God gave the Ten Commandments to His covenant people. He wants everyone to join that covenant and keep His commandments. These commandments apply to anyone who's willing to listen and to follow. However, parts of the Old Testament law are not in play today, as it was fulfuilled by Christ. The Ten Commandments are still effective.

 

[PVE1]

I try to follow Judaic laws mostly because Jesus did and I think its important for Christians to try to emulate Jesus' life as closely as possible. However, even if that wasn't the case, I think Judaic laws are a good idea universal. I fast on Saturdays and that is a day for me to worship God and read his books. I don't eat pork, but I also don't eat any kind of animal. I do recognize that Moses was talking to the Jews and the Jews only, but I feel its pretty universal.

 

[Caladan]

You know, the Hebrew bible has become entrenched in western culture and livelihood centuries ago, Jewish society has lived among western culture for centuries that the two are merged on many many levels, in a sense as someone said before 'we are all Jews today'.
so no, while modern Jews cannot claim complete mandate over the scriptures that are officially and practically part of Christian livelihood, I do not see the need for non Jews to keep the Sabbath. however Jewish culture is immersed in 'gentile' society, modern Jews cannot claim complete mandate over the scriptures that are officially and practically part of Christian livelihood.
Jews and Christians should practice their traditions as they have for centuries with normal adaptations to the times, I am not sure there is a need for Christians to try and manifest the biblical roots of their faith such as keeping the Sabbath simply because Christians have not been doing it for centuries.

 

[Whoitbe]

God gave the Ten Commandments to His covenant people. He wants everyone to join that covenant and keep His commandments. These commandments apply to anyone who's willing to listen and to follow. However, parts of the Old Testament law are not in play today, as it was fulfuilled by Christ. The Ten Commandments are still effective.

I made an earlier which post more or less adressing your claims. Some of the things you are by all means allowed to follow. But some of the things you are not allowed to follow. Like tzitzit(the fringes on the corners of your garment). They're a reminder of the 613 mitzvot given to the Jewish people. If you're karaite, then I assume(if someone wants to clarify for me that my assumptions are wrong), I assume they are also explicitly there to remind Jews of the commandments they were given - as it says in the Torah: and you shall put fringes kn the corner of your garments and remember the commandmets which the lord has given you(you, as in the Jews - the children of Israel).

I'm saying this: G-d gave the nations of the world 7 commandments as obligatory and the Jews 613, assuming you hold that it is 613 commandments given. Not 10. He specifically adressed the nations of the world.

But, if I gather what you're saying correctly - you mean to tell me that the Torah (which is effectively a legal document with stories in it) is rendered invalid because one man fulfilled all the commandments?

So... Sending the he-goat into azazel for atonement, having a high priest, and the other animal sacrifices are no longer binding as well as the necessity to build a temple? So... One man effectively fulfilled all these? How is this possible. Christ wasn't a kohen(descendant of aharon) According to new testament tradition, he is fatherless and allegedly of the house of David. So, under both statements I just made regarding his lineage, it is defacto impossible for him to fulfill all the commandments. For example, the he goat and incense offerings of yom kippur were only allowed to be made by the kohen gadol(high priest of aharons descent). Since Jesus was not of descent of aharon, it is viruslly impossible to fulfill this *mitzvah as only the kohen gadol could enter the holy of holies - where the incense was placed. This is commanded explicitly in the Torah.

Now, you assume he fulfilled the role of high priest because of what it says in Hebrews 7 and what it also says in psalms 110:4.... If I recall correctly. But, malchetzadik(melchezedek is the Latin translation) is:

A. Not necessarily even the kings name. In fact, the midrash says he was Shem. Malchitzadak literally means "righteousness is my king."

B. King David was not allowed to enter the holy of holies - or else he would of been killed the instant he stepped foot. Read what happened to aharons two sons and the historical account of virtually every kohen gadol that wasn't fit to go into the holy of holies. So, therefor, the role of priestlyhood which David had acquired in the name of malchetzadik is not at all the same as that which was commanded by the Torah for the descendant of aharon to take on.

So on that simple fact alone, it is virtually impossible for him to have nullified any laws in the Torah. When G-d speaks and commands generations to follow His word, His words are eternal and to he adhered at all times until the end of time. To say they are not is in fact heresy. * *

 

[Beta]

God gave the Ten Commandments to His covenant people. He wants everyone to join that covenant and keep His commandments. These commandments apply to anyone who's willing to listen and to follow. However, parts of the Old Testament law are not in play today, as it was fulfuilled by Christ. The Ten Commandments are still effective.

Well said my friend ! :yes:

 

[Bocaj2011]

The main reason I follow them, aside from they are common sense, is that Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). No human can truthfully admit they have never commited one of the sins listed in the Ten Commandments but Jesus lived a holy and spotless life freeing us from the condemnation suffered by the lack of acceptable sacrifice.

 

[Whoitbe]

You know, the Hebrew bible has become entrenched in western culture and livelihood centuries ago, Jewish society has lived among western culture for centuries that the two are merged on many many levels, in a sense as someone said before 'we are all Jews today'.
so no, while modern Jews cannot claim complete mandate over the scriptures that are officially and practically part of Christian livelihood, I do not see the need for non Jews to keep the Sabbath. however Jewish culture is immersed in 'gentile' society, modern Jews cannot claim complete mandate over the scriptures that are officially and practically part of Christian livelihood.
Jews and Christians should practice their traditions as they have for centuries with normal adaptations to the times, I am not sure there is a need for Christians to try and manifest the biblical roots of their faith such as keeping the Sabbath simply because Christians have not been doing it for centuries.

Have you ever been to meah shearim? Meah shearim disproves what you just said except on minor details... I.e. The development of Yiddish and clothing which is the style of 18th century Poles. Even then, that's still something exclusively distinguishing to the sociological ashkenaz Haredim. Go look at a picture of the baba sali or mordechai eliyahu. Jews have remained clannish and socially isolated within religious communities since... They were Jews. Granted, the cultures in which they were surrounded by influenced certain extrinsic features(dress, language in day to day necessity, and food), but it never intrinsically changed the prospects of rabbinic Judaism. Sephardi, ashkenaz... It's about 99.99% the same.

But, we don't necessarily on our own authority claim the Torah be exclusively ours - we do it based on what the Torah itself says. Both written and oral. I thought I made that clear in my prior statement claiming that G-d gave the torah to the Jews. Tell me, how many Christians do you think read and write and understand Hebrew? A very small handful, I'm sure. Yet, this is the language the Torah was written in. Granted, assyriac and aleppo, the syntax and lettering is still the exact same. So... Effectively Christain thought since the movement spread outside of Israel has been influenced by various translations which are based on translations... Namely the Septuagint. How do any non-Jews claim authentic rights to having an equal or more allowing right to the Torah when they effectively don't develop understandig from the text itself or read masoretic based translations. And the NIV is crap. They got the very first line wrong, even.

 

[Whoitbe]

The main reason I follow them, aside from they are common sense, is that Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). No human can truthfully admit they have never commited one of the sins listed in the Ten Commandments but Jesus lived a holy and spotless life freeing us from the condemnation suffered by the lack of acceptable sacrifice.

So... Jesus came to destroy the law that G-d gave... That's not blasphemy how? Let me ask you this, are you familiar with this verse:

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. * א. אֵת כָּל הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ לַעֲשׂוֹת לֹא תֹסֵף עָלָיו וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ:

So... He fulfilled all the commandments and decided to keep 10... This verse I just cited is now meaningless you're saying?

 

[Caladan]

Have you ever been to meah shearim? Meah shearim disproves what you just said except on minor details... I.e. The development of Yiddish and clothing which is the style of 18th century Poles. Even then, that's still something exclusively distinguishing to the sociological ashkenaz Haredim. Go look at a picture of the baba sali or mordechai eliyahu. Jews have remained clannish and socially isolated within religious communities since... They were Jews. Granted, the cultures in which they were surrounded by influenced certain extrinsic features(dress, language in day to day necessity, and food), but it never intrinsically changed the prospects of rabbinic Judaism. Sephardi, ashkenaz... It's about 99.99% the same.

Obviously we are not talking about Mea Shearim. but about Christianity in North America.
although you are pretty wrong in your description of modern Judaism, Modern Judaism is certainly not limited to the ghetto of Mea Shearim and the Haredri MINORITY. Judaism as it is practiced across Israel is much more stable in regards to modern life.

But, we don't necessarily on our own authority claim the Torah be exclusively ours - we do it based on what the Torah itself says. Both written and oral. I thought I made that clear in my prior statement claiming that G-d gave the torah to the Jews. Tell me, how many Christians do you think read and write and understand Hebrew? A very small handful, I'm sure. Yet, this is the language the Torah was written in. Granted, assyriac and aleppo, the syntax and lettering is still the exact same. So... Effectively Christain thought since the movement spread outside of Israel has been influenced by various translations which are based on translations... Namely the Septuagint. How do any non-Jews claim authentic rights to having an equal or more allowing right to the Torah when they effectively don't develop understandig from the text itself or read masoretic based translations. And the NIV is crap. They got the very first line wrong, even.

The Hebrew bible has shaped western society and Christian culture more than any other text, it is an outdated concept to hold the Hebrew bible as exclusively relevant to Jewish culture.