Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy ‘Ghost’?

[Soapy]

So you have been proven wrong and can't argue properly with me based on actual linguistics and sources. Understood.

You are coming out with the fact that you are here because you want to bash the Trinity as Pagan and you are making a frankly ludicrous argument to try to prove a point.

It didn't work.

I did not SET OUT to do this. Look again at the topic question. I did not even mention Trinitarianism of any other belief but rather, ‘Some believers’. IT IS YOU AND THE OTHERS who INSISTED on introducing, and maintaining the focus on it EVEN AFTER I tried to stop ‘you’ going down that line.

But NOW that everyone has ditched the thread topic and gone onto other off-topic discussions as a playground (shows the immaturity of those you support!!) I decided to follow up with side issues to do with The Spirit of God… as you call it: ‘The Ghost of God’!!!!

And what do you mean by, ‘I didn’t work’.
If I BASH the trinity, how can you say I did not BASH the trinity??

• Ok, who is GOD. Is God a person?
• What is the GHOST OF GOD? Is the Ghost of God a person?
• Is Trinity not the WORSHIP of THREE PERSONS?

 

[Soapy]

Even the claim the Anglo-Saxons and Romans were pagans, is false for the whole relevant period.
So if that is the level of understanding, then yes, it explains a lot.

Interesting! Can you say what it is that ‘it’ explains?

 

[Rival]

I did not SET OUT to do this. Look again at the topic question. I did not even mention Trinitarianism of any other belief but rather, ‘Some believers’. IT IS YOU AND THE OTHERS who INSISTED on introducing, and maintaining the focus on it EVEN AFTER I tried to stop ‘you’ going down that line.

But NOW that everyone has ditched the thread topic and gone onto other off-topic discussions as a playground (shows the immaturity of those you support!!) I decided to follow up with side issues to do with The Spirit of God… as you call it: ‘The Ghost of God’!!!!

And what do you mean by, ‘I didn’t work’.
If I BASH the trinity, how can you say I did not BASH the trinity??

• Ok, who is GOD. Is God a person?
• What is the GHOST OF GOD? Is the Ghost of God a person?
• Is Trinity not the WORSHIP of THREE PERSONS?

Excuse me, you raised the Trinity in your previous post to mine by going on about 'three Gods', which you appear to think it is.

I can see you don't really want to debate, only to shove your beliefs in my face. Go read some Athanasius and get back to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Interesting! Can you say what it is that ‘it’ explains?

You understand reality differently that say I do. In other words if you like it with biases, we have different biases in our respective cognitive schemata. That is it.

 

[Tamino]

‘Too much study befuddles the mind!’… a well known phrase!!!

Never heard of it before.
I'd rather go with:

"it is to writings that you must set your mind (...). I shall make you love books more than your mother, and I shall place their excellence before you. "
(From the Instruction of Kheti)

 

[Soapy]

Excuse me, you raised the Trinity in your previous post to mine by going on about 'three Gods', which you appear to think it is.

I can see you don't really want to debate, only to shove your beliefs in my face. Go read some Athanasius and get back to me.

Sorry, you need to read more carefully. Right from the FIRST REPLY a poster was accusing me of anti-trinitarianism…. THATS what I’m talking about.

I heard (not for the first time) a preacher talk about ‘The Holy Ghost’ from several Bible verses and decided to put it to the test in this forum.

But right from the off, even someone who says he has no affiliation to trinity, brought an unfounded accusation against MY POST QUESTION as if it was anything to do with trinitarianism!!!!

For your information: I do believe in the SPIRIT OF GOD… which others INCORRECTLY call, ‘The Holy Spirit’… for sure, if May slip from the mouth easier than ‘Spirit of God’ but there is a very good reason why I’m showing that if us a false moniker.,. And I haven’t even touched on ‘HOLY GHOST’ yet.

It is for sure, ‘Holy Spirit is daft far far more common than ‘Holy Ghost’ that dvdn I find myself, on a lazy day, writing ‘Holy Spirit’ instead of ‘Spirit of God’.

So, you see, the first post accusation was ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT… and led to a barrage of distructive posts from supporters of trinity —- who turned out to advocates of the belief that the Spirit of God is a malevolent Spirit called, ‘a Ghost’.

Maybe you are only talking of YOUR first post to me but, the trinity input started FROM the BEGINNING!

And, when you say that I don’t want a debate… Well, TGIS IS WHAT A DEBATE IS ABOUT:

• Two parties - only one is right
• They square off on each other until one agrees to concede given irrefutable evidence against their belief
• Or the loser runs off throwing his rattle nearest waste container (of course, they retrieve it and carry on their erroneous belief elsewhere!!)

However, since, actually, you are arguing off the back of someone else’s misfiring posts, you did not ‘introduce’ YOUR PART in what YOU believe is the answer to THE THREAD QUESTION…. Like the others, you ATTACKED ME on a claim that I was being anti-trinitarian….

P.s. A TRUE BELIEF HAS NO FEAR OF BEING ATTACKED…. You show your belief is fragile, brittle, and full of holes so much so that you cannot even answer the simplest of questions I put to you!!

Prove me wrong…. Answer with credible fear of God, what I asked you!!

 

[Rival]

Sorry, you need to read more carefully. Right from the FIRST REPLY a poster was accusing me of anti-trinitarianism…. THATS what I’m talking about.

I heard (not for the first time) a preacher talk about ‘The Holy Ghost’ from several Bible verses and decided to put it to the test in this forum.

But right from the off, even someone who says he has no affiliation to trinity, brought an unfounded accusation against MY POST QUESTION as if it was anything to do with trinitarianism!!!!

For your information: I do believe in the SPIRIT OF GOD… which others INCORRECTLY call, ‘The Holy Spirit’… for sure, if May slip from the mouth easier than ‘Spirit of God’ but there is a very good reason why I’m showing that if us a false moniker.,. And I haven’t even touched on ‘HOLY GHOST’ yet.

It is for sure, ‘Holy Spirit is daft far far more common than ‘Holy Ghost’ that dvdn I find myself, on a lazy day, writing ‘Holy Spirit’ instead of ‘Spirit of God’.

So, you see, the first post accusation was ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT… and led to a barrage of distructive posts from supporters of trinity —- who turned out to advocates of the belief that the Spirit of God is a malevolent Spirit called, ‘a Ghost’.

Maybe you are only talking of YOUR first post to me but, the trinity input started FROM the BEGINNING!

And, when you say that I don’t want a debate… Well, TGIS IS WHAT A DEBATE IS ABOUT:

• Two parties - only one is right
• They square off on each other until one agrees to concede given irrefutable evidence against their belief
• Or the loser runs off throwing his rattle nearest waste container (of course, they retrieve it and carry on their erroneous belief elsewhere!!)

However, since, actually, you are arguing off the back of someone else’s misfiring posts, you did not ‘introduce’ YOUR PART in what YOU believe is the answer to THE THREAD QUESTION…. Like the others, you ATTACKED ME on a claim that I was being anti-trinitarian….

P.s. A TRUE BELIEF HAS NO FEAR OF BEING ATTACKED…. You show your belief is fragile, brittle, and full of holes so much so that you cannot even answer the simplest of questions I put to you!!

Prove me wrong…. Answer with credible fear of God, what I asked you!!

I answered you with my God-given knowledge, given from good books by scholars.

You rejected it.

 

[Soapy]

Never heard of it before.
I'd rather go with:

"it is to writings that you must set your mind (...). I shall make you love books more than your mother, and I shall place their excellence before you. "
(From the Instruction of Kheti)

Again, TOO MUCH study befuddles the mind!!

Shorter, Simpler, straight to the point!!

 

[River Sea]

German still owes a lot of its modern uniform expression to Martin Luther and his 16th century bible translation.
In German, it's "Heiliger Geist" . It was translated like this by Luther and there is still no alternative term available.
Look it up.
German has the word "Geist", obviously in a etymological relationship with "ghost".
We don't have "spirit", we have never integrated this specific Latin term into our language. If you want to translate "spirit" into German, "Geist" is literally your only option.
German "Geist" has the range of meaning of "apparition of a dead person", "spirit" and even "mind"... all grouped around the core concept of "something immaterial"

@Tamino

So the German language did not have the word spirit, but only the word ghost. How did the word "spirit" arrive in any language? Was it through idiomatic situations?

I asked my dad about the word idiomatic, and he informed me that the German language is direct, whereas the English language is not. Do you find that the German language is direct? Idioms complicate language comprehension. Were there needs to complicate languages?

I encourage you, look. Look up the Canaanite pantheon

@Tamino
What are your thoughts about the Canaanite pantheon? Would the Holy Ghost be among the many that's the pantheon? Many gods people create, including the Holy Ghost. Because that's what pantheon means is many?

 

[Tamino]

@Tamino

So the German language did not have the word spirit, but only the word ghost. How did the word "spirit" arrive in any language? Was it through idiomatic situations?

I don't know. It has its etymological root in the association with breath

I asked my dad about the word idiomatic, and he informed me that the German language is direct, whereas the English language is not. Do you find that the German language is direct? Idioms complicate language comprehension. Were there needs to complicate languages?

I don't see that, honestly. German has plenty of idioms, I never thought to count if they are less used than in English. Perhaps your dad has a point, it just doesn't feel like it to me.
I personally think that German and English are pretty similar, German just has less Romanic influence, we're missing the double-whammy of Roman and Norman invasion. German uses a lot more Germanic roots where English is using Latin.

@Tamino
What are your thoughts about the Canaanite pantheon? Would the Holy Ghost be among the many that's the pantheon? Many gods people create, including the Holy Ghost. Because that's what pantheon means is many?

If you ask my opinion? I think the use of latin "Spirit" goes back to Hebrew Ruakh and Assyrian Lil, perhaps partially even the Egyptian concept of "tjaou ni ankh" - all of them ideas related to a divine air/wind/breath that bestows life.
The ancients didn't check brain activity and had only a vague understanding of pulse. For them, the main way to double- check if an animal or human is dead or alive would be to see if they're breathing. Hence, the idea that a divinity giving life to someone is done via a divine breath.

And where the Jewish God just manifests as a divine wind sometimes (see prophet Elijah) or bestows life on his creations via breath, the Christians took this as a separate entity in their weird trinity .

 

[wellwisher]

The Dictionary definition of a ‘GHOST’ is:

• ‘An apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.’

How does this definition apply to what is called, ‘The Third Person’ of the trinity?

Take into account that a Ghost is ‘of a DEAD’ person - yet the Spirit of God is a ‘LIFE GIVING’ entity.

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

In the classic symbolism, the Soul is static, while the Spirit animates the soul. In modern terms, the soul would be like the memories on the hard drive of your computer. The soul of the computer is the collection and record of your computer activity, over the life of the computer. We can even store a copy in the Cloud; heaven analogy, for permanent storage; divine soul or permanent copy. This computer memory is static, until animated by the CPU, which is like the spirit of the computer.

A ghost is a dynamic output of the spirit animating the soul. In the case of the computer, this may play out on your monitor and/or speakers; ghost in the machine. This may be a record of your vacation that you can relive through a video. In terms of our brain and memory, an animation may appear as memory train of a beloved deceased person, becoming projected as a ghost. We feel them nearby on their birthday. The Spirit exists apart from the soul and vice-versa, while a ghost is an animated union of soul and spirit.

There are more than one type of spirit. There is the Holy Spirit, Helpful spirits, Evil spirits and even Animal spirits. The Holy Spirit animating our soul or memory might rearrange our memories, to help us draw a new and more positive conclusion. The evil spirits animating the same soul; memories, might draw one to an angry and negative conclusion; data bias. Both outputs can manifest as ghosts; dynamic union or thought train in the imagination.

A good example, was Saul who persecuted the Christians. He was visited by the Holy Spirit, and suddenly sees the memories of his own bad behavior in a different way; Holy Spirit animating his memory. The Holy Ghost would be a dynamic composite output that formed in his imagination, that led to his new understanding; truth. He changes his attitude and renames himself, Paul. However, since most people assume reality is only outside us; science, and not inside us, this animation may need to project; like a movie, as an apparitional helper, that appears outside us; Holy Ghost.

If you understand how the brain and inner self work, you rarely see ghosts since they will appear within; intuition. As an example, I may be looking at old pictures and one in particular picture stimulates my nostalgia. So, I drift off in my imagination knowing the inner self or firmware has just got my attention; brain stem arousal, so and I watch and analyze the inner drama. If I had assumed, reality is only outside, the inner self may need to project a vision, as a ghost from the past, to help me trigger the nostalgia, to lead me to the place I need to be.

In ancient times and even today many people assume that ghost are always outside us, while religious taboos may suggest ghost are not good, therefore, the composite taboo, represses the ability of the person to witness the spirits animating our memory or soul. This is quite natural but natural instinct is mostly taboo in favor of man made behavior; buy a book instead.

The term Holy Ghost appears to be a compromise to science and the natural man, assuming such effects have to be separated from us, and outside us, so we can be more objective. The inner voice or inner man ,as Jesus said, was too abstract, and could be mistaken for psychosis or even evil spirits. The ghost keeps the ego separate from the projection; scientist and his subject, so the ego does not become the ghost and needs an exorcism. For example, if you saw the ghost of Alexander the Great, the ego can stay separated and observe. But if you start to feel and then behave like Alexander the Great, unless you are used to being the scientist and internal experiment, this may not end well. It is better off projected as the ghost of Alexander the Great until you have internal skills and then you can let it play out.

 

[Muffled]

The Dictionary definition of a ‘GHOST’ is:

• ‘An apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.’

How does this definition apply to what is called, ‘The Third Person’ of the trinity?

Take into account that a Ghost is ‘of a DEAD’ person - yet the Spirit of God is a ‘LIFE GIVING’ entity.

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

I believe ghost is another word for spirit and Spirit is what God is. We are not claiming that the body of Jesus inhabits our bodies.

 

[Muffled]

Ghost is the Saxon translation of spirit.

Sick of this anti Saxon nonsense.

I do believe we have to admit that God is not dead.

 

[ChieftheCef]

@Tamino
What are your thoughts about the Canaanite pantheon? Would the Holy Ghost be among the many that's the pantheon? Many gods people create, including the Holy Ghost. Because that's what pantheon means is many?

Look it up, god's not going to b urn you alive. Doesn't that sheer idea mean he's not god since that "plan" doesn't even work? Everyone who wants to do drugs, gamble and **** already do and always did.

 

[River Sea]

I don't know. It has its etymological root in the association with breath

I don't see that, honestly. German has plenty of idioms, I never thought to count if they are less used than in English. Perhaps your dad has a point, it just doesn't feel like it to me.
I personally think that German and English are pretty similar, German just has less Romanic influence, we're missing the double-whammy of Roman and Norman invasion. German uses a lot more Germanic roots where English is using Latin.

If you ask my opinion? I think the use of latin "Spirit" goes back to Hebrew Ruakh and Assyrian Lil, perhaps partially even the Egyptian concept of "tjaou ni ankh" - all of them ideas related to a divine air/wind/breath that bestows life.
The ancients didn't check brain activity and had only a vague understanding of pulse. For them, the main way to double- check if an animal or human is dead or alive would be to see if they're breathing. Hence, the idea that a divinity giving life to someone is done via a divine breath.

And where the Jewish God just manifests as a divine wind sometimes (see prophet Elijah) or bestows life on his creations via breath, the Christians took this as a separate entity in their weird trinity .

@Tamino

Thank you for explaining that Germans have idioms too. you were explaining the divine air, wind, or breath that bestows life. I use words to explain what I experience when I drink from the light in me, which feeds me burn-fire, and that's food—water for me. I allow myself to learn how to feed on the light in my situations. I could say that light is air that I breathe; when being fed, light in me burns, and no, I don't catch fire. Light is fire that doesn't catch me on fire; it's warmth that feeds me. I'm trying not to use the word spirit because, as you said, German doesn't have the word spirit, but I would explain that that's spiritual food. I allow light to teach me how to feed from light in the midst of my thoughts and emotions.

I read what you wrote how people analyze when the person left the physical body, and I'll use your words @Tamino "For them, the main way to double- check if an animal or human is dead or alive would be to see if they're breathing. Hence, the idea that a divinity giving life to someone is done via a divine breath"

Oh and you @Tamino wrote, "And where the Jewish God just manifests as a divine wind sometimes (see prophet Elijah) or bestows life on his creations via breath, the Christians took this as a separate entity in their weird trinity"

oh so the Jews God manifest as Devine wind, I don't know Elijah, I really don't know this area, and about trinity. I don't know this area of Elijah and then how Christians has weird trinity, I'm sure there's Christians who don't have trinity, and they're Christians. I did learn a while back that some people follow John. People uses to help connect, or go directly to.

Look it up, god's not going to b urn you alive. Doesn't that sheer idea mean he's not god since that "plan" doesn't even work? Everyone who wants to do drugs, gamble and **** already do and always did.

@ChieftheCef

Everyone lives forever, as there's no separation. I'm not of any religion; I thought I had similarities with all religions, meaning I take what I want and leave the rest alone, and so that would mean the areas I take, then that's the area I'll have similarities with. People are gods and people uses _____ to help them connect, or they go directly to.

 

[Tamino]

oh so the Jews God manifest as Devine wind, I don't know Elijah, I really don't know this area, and about trinity. I don't know this area of Elijah

I was referring to 1Kings 9, 9-15 ... I has a story of Elijah meeting his god. First, there are violent natural phenomena, and the first expected representation of the God is a storm wind - but the voice of god finally reveals itself in a quiet whisper.
In Exodus it's the burning bush and pillar of smoke or cloud... so that's why I would say that storm/wind and fire are the common manifestations of Jahwe

 

[ChieftheCef]

@ChieftheCef

Everyone lives forever, as there's no separation. I'm not of any religion; I thought I had similarities with all religions, meaning I take what I want and leave the rest alone, and so that would mean the areas I take, then that's the area I'll have similarities with. People are gods and people uses _____ to help them connect, or they go directly to.

Why is your name river sea?

 

[vijeno]

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

Nice little false dichotomy there. Okay, I'll still take this a bit seriously because I'm in a generous mood, but please don't do this.

Without looking it up, I guess they just started using πνεῦμα / רוּחַ, because it was a similar enough entity to what they tried to express. But tbf, there are whole libraries devoted to the holy spirit, and their relation to the paraklet, and the trinity, and what have you. Quoting one dictionary definition, from one arbitrary dictionary, and claiming it doesn't quite fit, is not going to cut it.

May I quote some Cohen at you (who wasn't a christian)?

Ah, the wars, they will be fought again
The holy dove, she will be caught again
And bought, and sold, and bought again
The dove is never free.

(I'm saying this as an atheist, by the way. Being opposed to christianity is no excuse for fallacies and linguistic trap-forging.)

 

[Soapy]

Nice little false dichotomy there. Okay, I'll still take this a bit seriously because I'm in a generous mood, but please don't do this.

Without looking it up, I guess they just started using πνεῦμα / רוּחַ, because it was a similar enough entity to what they tried to express. But tbf, there are whole libraries devoted to the holy spirit, and their relation to the paraklet, and the trinity, and what have you. Quoting one dictionary definition, from one arbitrary dictionary, and claiming it doesn't quite fit, is not going to cut it.

May I quote some Cohen at you (who wasn't a christian)?

Ah, the wars, they will be fought again
The holy dove, she will be caught again
And bought, and sold, and bought again
The dove is never free.

(I'm saying this as an atheist, by the way. Being opposed to christianity is no excuse for fallacies and linguistic trap-forging.)

You may be feeling generous but I think you don’t know what you are pointing out since the topic is about the word, ‘GHOST’.

A Ghost IS ‘THE SPIRIT’ of a dead person which roams the living world in a semi or fully visible form - which is why people say: ‘I saw a Ghost’.

What you did… and I think what others here have also done, is to say that a ‘Spirit’ and a ‘Ghost’ are the same thing … therefore @Soapy is talking to the wind…!!!!!

Yet, despite the numerous times I expressed the truth, you guys keep on erring in your view of what is being asked…. Testament to many many other things that certain belief system get wrong because their erring in thought and ideas (their Ideologies).

Since the definition of a ‘Ghost’ is a spirit of a dead person, the question is then:

• ‘How can there be a HOLY GHOST’?

From the inability of the numerous responders here to embrace the ACTUAL QUESTION and THE PREMISES set to it, it’s clear that they are either extremely confused having seen that their belief is false - what they’ve been TAUGHT to believe but never questioned and now cannot answer STRAIGHT, so they blast back in fury claiming that I am trinity- bashing (where did that come from) OR, they are desperate to maintain their ignorance because if they do ‘understand’ then they can’t go back to their church and it’s false doctrines next Sunday:

Store Staff: ‘Hi, Mrs… That note you are trying to pass to me for payment of theses good… is a fake. It’s a dud - it’s got no water mark and is badly printed…!’

Woman: ‘No, You are trying to rob me… it’s a real note… I got it from my friend and he is an honest person!!!’

StoreKeeper: ‘Sorry, how am I robbing you? I’m saying that the money is not valid - that’s not robbing you!’

Woman: ‘Yes you are, you don’t understand kazoo money… I studied kazoo and they use these types of notes in exchange for goods in the middle centuries!’

Shopkeeper: ‘Well, if you use AMERICAN money to exchange for goods in my store then all will be well…!’

Woman: You just don’t like kazoo money… I should report you …’

Shopkeeper: ‘Uh! Well, go ahead but you may get very embarrassed when the truth is pointed out to you by an valid official - who is not one of your ‘kazoo’ believers!!! Have a nice day!!’

Here, the kazoo money is false currency for the shop!! It may be that there is a belief and use of it in KAZOO society but it’s invalid outside of that environment.

So, ‘Ghost’ may well be ‘valid’ to a trinitarian church, but it is actually INVALID outside of it. It’s not valid currency!!!

• Does God have a ‘Disembodied Spirit’?
• Is the Spirit of God a ‘Haunting Spirit’?
• Is there such a thing as ‘The Holy Ghost of God’?

 

[vijeno]

You may be feeling generous but I think you don’t know what you are pointing out since the topic is about the word, ‘GHOST’.

Sure, let's get back to your OP:

The Dictionary definition of a ‘GHOST’ is:

• ‘An apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.’

How does this definition apply to what is called, ‘The Third Person’ of the trinity?

This definition does not apply to the third person of the trinity.

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

It may be either, or it may be neither. For example, it can just be sloppy language, two concepts that share the same word, or two words overlapping in meaning. It happens all the time.

The two concepts are similar enough for people to sometimes use the same word. And sometimes, people just don't care, or they rely on the listener to know from context what they are talking about.

Moreover, in some languages, such as my mother language, the two concepts are expressed by the same word. I'm not sure if this is the case for ancient greek and hebrew (I would love to learn more about that - that would be way more fun to discuss!) - but my suspicion is that they probably did indeed use the same word.

Please do not rely on dictionary definitions alone for any proofs, since people often use language in ways that do not conform to dictionary definitions, for various reasons beside either maliciousness or ignorance.

By the way, a spirit can also be the spirit of a place, the spirit of a play or a book, the spirit of a nation... are all those words malicious in your view?