I would suggest avoid using phrases such as "I don't care" in a debate. It becomes easy to show you as someone who doesn't understand mainly because you are an uncaring person. So thanks for another win.
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Why do people hate Muslims?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
I would suggest avoid using phrases such as "I don't care" in a debate. It becomes easy to show you as someone who doesn't understand mainly because you are an uncaring person. So thanks for another win.
Religious books are like that including the Bible. After all, during the Civil War the South used the Bible to prove slavery was God's will while the North used it to prove Slavery was evil. And that's just one example. It is exactly why I don't like to make overly general statements but to look at what each individual believes and how he or she acts.
Alison Wonderland
Member
LOL
That makes zero sense.
I'm not going to argue with someone who is clearly incapable of sustaining a viable viewpoint.
Not at all what I said. I was defending those critics of Islam who are critical because of the studying they've done.
Why? Because you say so? I made no claim of it being the sacred arbiter of absolute truth ... Fighting your windmill?
Also I can't believe I'm debating a person who doubts the capacity of the two richest and most powerful countries in the world to influence policies in a 3rd world country. Alison Wonderland or La La Land?
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good for you. Sometimes however, we have to take a broader perspective.
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This is why I said we can't expect you to understand.
In the broader perspective the Quran is contradictory according to you. So we are back to square one. Why blame the Quran and not the reader?
Because it's fun for me, I don't know why, but in general terms.
If you disbelieve the Torah or Quran, then bring forth better. If you can provide a better scripture/Words of Allah then do so that "we" all may follow it.
If they cannot, realize that they follow only their own desires and who is more lost than one who follows what they desire without guidance from Allah.
And, that's what religious leaders do. They narrate their interpretation of scripture to their followers. If God can speak through man then why can't God speak through them if they, as they believe themselves to be, are devout followers of God or Allah.
I claim to be a believer, therefore you should accept what I say since I humbly look to Allah for guidance and Allah would not lead a true believer astray.
Right?
I'm in the club now. So to disagree with me is to disagree with Allah. Any true Muslim would understand that. If you don't understand, then you are not a true Muslim.
Alison Wonderland
Member
I didn't doubt that.
You're having serious comprehension problems communicating with me in addition to communication problems more generally. This is yet to even become a debate.
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My broadest perspective is that we've seen a world-wide rise in fanaticism of all kinds from the Middle East including from Israeli Jews, some Buddhists, Hindus and so forth. This is certainly true in the Islamic middle-east especially aided and abetted by Saudi support in the spreading of Wahhabi ideology. In the US, this is mostly from right-wing political fanatics preaching hatred and committing acts of terrorism.
What fanatics of all kinds want to do is to divide people into us, the good guys, and them, the bad guys, and wage various kinds of war against the bad guys.
There are various ways of opposing fanatics but one root is not to buy into their frame of reference and to judge people as individuals on the basis of what they truly believe today and even more how they act.
And for Islam, given the four classical schools of Sunni interpretation, Shi'a interpretation and various Islamic Sufi schools interpretation of Quran and Hadith, it is important to me to understand where they agree and where they have differences.
But a bottom line is that I believe anyone who declares himself my enemy no matter why. And that includes Islamic fanatics, right-wing anti semites in the US and so forth. We have the right and should exercise the right to resist them.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I think Muslims need to start to prove to the world that they are a religion of peace, they haven't shown this yet, its all nothing but noise, action speaks louder than mere words, so, we are waiting........lets see by your actions.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
LOL, that we apparently support Christian terrorism while deriding Muslim terrorism totally means Muslims are worse.
And our soldiers are taught to treat everyone like human beings? No? Don't we teach people specifically how to be fine with slaughtering hundreds to thousands? I've seen pics of Gitmo and such things: like good ol' Christian soldiers stripping "terrorists" (mind you, due process is not really a thing here) and doing God-awful things to them and taking selfies. Did Allah teach them that? Muhammad? No, you are taught the same crap, just under a different Head Honcho.
But if we want to determine causes, our roles in it can't be ignored. It must be awful having to tell yourself you're so much better than everyone else all the time. Real "better" people don't have to go on and on about it. It should be self-evident.
Trump's President and the KKK is in charge. We'll see. We're already banning our own citizens from entering the country.
Jesus also didn't live very long in his ministry. He was already starting to chase people around with bullwhips. Had he lived ...
True, but why be so arrogant as to go to another country and think you should automatically be exempt from local laws?
I was in support of that stupid teen somewhere who got caned for vandalism. Our country has this typical "OMG WE'RE AMERICAN WE SHOULD DO STUFF AND NOT GET CAUGHT!" outlook. It's embarrassing.
European/American colonialism shows you how they reacted.
One reason is because we have access to the text of the Qur'an, and therefore have the ability to judge its merits such as they are.
illykitty
RF's pet cat
And don't you know the crime rates in Japan are among the lowest in the world? They're mainly atheists, and less than 40% identify as religious, and the majority are Shinto and/or Buddhist.
Thanks for indulging me. You captured the essence of it very well except it doesn't say "Torah or Quran", it essentially says if you don't believe in the magic between the Torah and Quran then produce another two books with similar magic and I will believe in them.
In other words these verses suggest that MP was considered a wizard who performed magic or wizardry with the help of two sorceries (Torah and Quran) each book helping the other.
Notice again in 3:199, a community of Christians who believed in both the Bible and Quran. Apparently, they were impressed by the magic between these two books and accepted them both.
So, I ask do these verses suggest that MP was teaching that the Bible has to be abandoned or is corrupt, useless or abrogated? On the contrary, these verses suggest that the magic of MP was in how these two books worked together. In addition there were Muslims that understood this described in 3:199
So, what I am trying to say is that there are Muslims who disagree with Orthodox Islam. These are Muslims who don't believe that the Bible was abandoned by MP. These Muslims don't believe that MP was sent because Jews and Christians had changed the Bible. They believe that the Bible is in fact essential to understanding the magic of MP and Islam. They believe the Quran testifies to this in these verses. They believe that Orthodox Islam was set up by pagan Ummayds and their followers who grabbed power but didn't know or understand MP and what he was really teaching.
So my point is that there are many different forms of Islam based on what is in the Quran.
In my opinion non Muslims who make blanket negative statements about what Islam is and who MP was based on what these pagan converts wrote in the Orthodox texts sound equally ridiculous as those who created the Orthodoxy. In essence these are birds of a feather, incapable of any serious reflection and understanding, but always ready to pick a fight and start wars
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Then explain 28:48-50 and 3:199
I would say the same about you. What was your GRE verbal score?
What is there to explain, and why would it fall to non-nelievers to explain them?
It seems to me that the duty of explaining a scripture would fall to those who believe in its validity, no?
If I understood your post correctly, the main points are that not all lines within Islaam are the same; people can believe in the Qur'an yet reject its Orthodoxy and/or its most destructive interpretations; and that therefore it is unfair to criticize Islaam and/or Muhammad with blanked statements.
I agree with the first two points, but I think you are overrating their significance. As I explained back in page 7 of this thread, the very basic doctrine in the Qur'an sabotages them, and at least arguably is meant to, to everyone's loss.
For the same reason, I don't think your third point sustains itself. The Qur'an makes lots of blanket statements about itself, about God, about non-believers. It can't in good faith expect to be protected from same just because.
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