Why do some Atheists, Christians, Hindu's etc., believe in Islamic ahadith so passionately?

[mikkel_the_dane]

You may want to ask the Prophet of Right and Wrong, he is currently online and in this thread:
Is there any punishment in Islam for breaking a wife's arm?

He might be fun for you to engage with and find out from a person who thinks they have a "New Cult, A Religion of Common Sense".

No, I play with non-religious humans mainly. He is a self-described theist.

 

[ecco]

Why would anyone believe in something for which there was no evidence?

So what is right and wrong in the sense of morality and/or ethics?

Your comment does not even come close to addressing my question.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your comment does not even come close to addressing my question.

Please explain.

 

[ecco]

Please explain.

Your answer did not address my question.

If you can't see that, then there is really no point in continuing.



ETA Perhaps you wanted me to explain why you couldn't/did not want answer my question?

 

[Augustus]

I'm not going to follow a link you posted to a thread and then look through the thread to support the OP's premise. He had ample opportunity to do that himself. He didn't.

You're not going to read a 2 sentence post to work out why you completely misunderstood the OP and mocked him based on your own failing? Instead you will write a 3 sentence post explaining why you prefer to be wrong. Interesting.

Why would anyone believe in something for which there was no evidence?

You believed the OP was lying based on no evidence, and even when it was pointed out to you why your belief was obviously wrong you chose to spend more effort maintaining it than it would have taken to correct it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So non-religious humans only have evidence based beliefs?

My question.

Speaking for myself - yeah.

...

Your answer.

Now here is my question based on your answer: How do you do right/good and wrong/bad if you do such behavior?
Context: You must according to your answer answer with evidence, if you do morality and/or ethics in effect. You don't have to do that, because you could be amoral.

 

[Link]

Just how do you see that truth manifesting itself?

Do we spend years of study only to find that our version of truth is shared by other Muslims and, at the same time, rejected by many other Muslims?

Do we go by the actions of the believers? The actions of various Muslims are as varied as those of any other religious beliefs.

You have your beliefs and you choose to understand them as truth. They aren't truth any more than the beliefs of billions of other people are truth.

You should not rely on me or anyone not appointed by God for that, you should seek the answer from the doors of God he wants us to enter by and hold on to his rope by which guidance is achieved.

 

[ecco]

You're not going to read a 2 sentence post to work out why you completely misunderstood the OP and mocked him based on your own failing? Instead you will write a 3 sentence post explaining why you prefer to be wrong. Interesting.

OK, I'll play your silly game, for a while. Here is the post you wanted me to look at.

So you also believe Muhammad split the moon in half and flew to Jerusalem on a winged donkey?

These actually have much stronger evidence for them given that the only evidence for either is the Islamic tradition and these events are described in mutawatir hadiths (and potentially the Quran if the hadiths are to be believed).

What does that have to do with the "conversation" written in the OP being made-up nonsense?

B: Why do you believe that hadith?
A: Because Muslims do.
B: Do you believe everything Muslims believe?
A: Not everything, but the hadith are all true because Muslims believe it.

Person A is not a Muslim. From the title of the OP person A could be an atheist. I am an atheist.

Person B is asking an atheist (person A) why he believes that hadith.

Person A responds that he believes that hadith "Because Muslims do". That is nonsense. What atheist would assert that he believes a hadith. What atheist would assert that he believes a hadith because Muslims believe it.

If you can't show a comment from an atheist that says he believes some hadiths, then your involvement here is a complete fail.

You believed the OP was lying based on no evidence, and even when it was pointed out to you why your belief was obviously wrong you chose to spend more effort maintaining it than it would have taken to correct it.

I never used the term lying. I've been posting in this forum for many years and this is not my first forum. You are completely wrong when you say my comments were without evidence. The evidence is that I have never seen an atheist say he believed in any hadiths. And, obviously, neither have you.



ETA I went back to the thread you reference and found the response to your remark: "poppycock".

 

[Augustus]

What does that have to do with the "conversation" written in the OP being made-up nonsense?

It's an example of exactly what the OP is saying. that you don't understand why it is an example is the same reason you don't understand the OP, it requires a small amount of background knowledge that you appear to be missing.

If you can't show a comment from an atheist that says he believes some hadiths, then your involvement here is a complete fail.

My prediction that if I searched your name + Muhammad then I'd find you doing it turned out to be correct, so I'll go one better and quote you doing it:

A very sweet man who "forcefully converted " most of the Arabian Peninsula to his new faith"
Muhammad and the Faith of Islam [ushistory.org]
Muhammad fought a number of battles against the people of Mecca. In 629, Muhammad returned to Mecca with an army of 1500 converts to Islam and entered the city unopposed and without bloodshed. Before his death two years later, he forcefully converted most of the Arabian Peninsula to his new faith and built a small empire.
How do you think that sweet man accomplished that forceful conversion?

How did you manage to miss the part that Muhammed surrounded the city with 10,000 troops?

If you are in a city surrounded by 10,000 troops, would you think there is someone applying force?
If you are in a city surrounded by 10,000 troops, would you think you have much choice?

Apologetics go only so far, then one should face the truth.

This is the bit of background knowledge you are lacking: The only sources for this stuff are the same Islamic traditions (hadith/sira) that have Muhammad splitting the moon. The only evidence it is true is because Muslims say it is true, there is no other evidence whatsoever.

That is the point of the OP that you missed: people who insist the Islamic traditions are unreliable in general then go on to treat them as reliable whenever it is convenient to their argument.

The evidence is that I have never seen an atheist say he believed in any hadiths. And, obviously, neither have you.

Obviously, you have seen many atheists doing this and have done so yourself, you just didn't understand it at the time.

Something tells me you won't understand even now. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

ETA I went back to the thread you reference and found the response to your remark: "poppycock".

Yes, he was wrong for the same reason you are. Unfortunately neither of you want to understand why.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Ooo! Thats hot! Looks like you got him!

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

We have "winner" etc, by why not "Hero"? Augustus is this thread's Hero!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You did not understand the question or the OP. Maybe I have not articulated properly.

Ok, true, I misunderstood your last post.

If you feel some non Muslims cherry pick some hadithes, this could be due to a motive, such as disproving Islam.
But it is their problem. All can be done, is to inform them the proper evaluation of each hadith, case by case, and that is evaluating against the standard of Quran.
Just my view.

 

[icehorse]

Thats irrelevant.

By which you mean, "it's totally relevant" ?

 

[firedragon]

By which you mean, "it's totally relevant" ?

If you think like that, its your baby.

 

[ecco]

My prediction that if I searched your name + Muhammad then I'd find you doing it turned out to be correct, so I'll go one better and quote you doing it:

Find me doing what? Did you find me saying or intimating that I actually believed the passage I quoted? No.

From time to time I quote passages from the Bible talking about the Great Flood. That doesn't mean I believe in the Great Flood.

From time to time I quote Donald Trump saying that the virus will just magically disappear. That doesn't mean I believe Covid 19 is going to just magically disappear.

This is the bit of background knowledge you are lacking: The only sources for this stuff are the same Islamic traditions (hadith/sira) that have Muhammad splitting the moon. The only evidence it is true is because Muslims say it is true, there is no other evidence whatsoever.

You are partly right - there is no other evidence whatsoever. However, as an atheist, I don't accept the beliefs of some Muslims as evidence of anything whatsoever. Likewise, I don't accept the beliefs of Donald Trump as evidence of anything whatsoever.

Beliefs are not evidence.

That is the point of the OP that you missed: people who insist the Islamic traditions are unreliable in general then go on to treat them as reliable whenever it is convenient to their argument.

That is the point of my argument that you missed: I never treat them as reliable. Quoting from them or the writings of Ballulah, or the writings of the Bible, or the rhetoric of Donal Trump or the writings of the Koran or the Hadiths does not imply that I treat them as reliable. That should be clear to anyone who understands language usage.

If you believe my quoting these sources (in context), implies that I believe them, then I might suggest that you have a problem understanding language. However, I don't think that is the problem in your case. I'll leave it at that.

Obviously, you have seen many atheists doing this and have done so yourself, you just didn't understand it at the time.

Something tells me you won't understand even now. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

See above.

 

[firedragon]

Find me doing what? Did you find me saying or intimating that I actually believed the passage I quoted? No.

From time to time I quote passages from the Bible talking about the Great Flood. That doesn't mean I believe in the Great Flood.

From time to time I quote Donald Trump saying that the virus will just magically disappear. That doesn't mean I believe Covid 19 is going to just magically disappear.


You are partly right - there is no other evidence whatsoever. However, as an atheist, I don't accept the beliefs of some Muslims as evidence of anything whatsoever. Likewise, I don't accept the beliefs of Donald Trump as evidence of anything whatsoever.

Beliefs are not evidence.





That is the point of my argument that you missed: I never treat them as reliable. Quoting from them or the writings of Ballulah, or the writings of the Bible, or the rhetoric of Donal Trump or the writings of the Koran or the Hadiths does not imply that I treat them as reliable. That should be clear to anyone who understands language usage.

If you believe my quoting these sources (in context), implies that I believe them, then I might suggest that you have a problem understanding language. However, I don't think that is the problem in your case. I'll leave it at that.





See above.

So basically you mean to say you dont believe a hadith but you quote it as historical fact?

 

[firedragon]

Find me doing what? Did you find me saying or intimating that I actually believed the passage I quoted? No.

From time to time I quote passages from the Bible talking about the Great Flood. That doesn't mean I believe in the Great Flood.

From time to time I quote Donald Trump saying that the virus will just magically disappear. That doesn't mean I believe Covid 19 is going to just magically disappear.


You are partly right - there is no other evidence whatsoever. However, as an atheist, I don't accept the beliefs of some Muslims as evidence of anything whatsoever. Likewise, I don't accept the beliefs of Donald Trump as evidence of anything whatsoever.

Beliefs are not evidence.





That is the point of my argument that you missed: I never treat them as reliable. Quoting from them or the writings of Ballulah, or the writings of the Bible, or the rhetoric of Donal Trump or the writings of the Koran or the Hadiths does not imply that I treat them as reliable. That should be clear to anyone who understands language usage.

If you believe my quoting these sources (in context), implies that I believe them, then I might suggest that you have a problem understanding language. However, I don't think that is the problem in your case. I'll leave it at that.





See above.

Where you said this below, you were not quoting some hadith as historical fact right? You were just quoting what someone else said like quoting Donald trump saying something about the Covid 19 vaccine. SO you are admitting that you dont believe this happened, or at least you are not sure this happened, but you just said it because someone else said it. Right?

A very sweet man who "forcefully converted " most of the Arabian Peninsula to his new faith"
Muhammad and the Faith of Islam [ushistory.org]
Muhammad fought a number of battles against the people of Mecca. In 629, Muhammad returned to Mecca with an army of 1500 converts to Islam and entered the city unopposed and without bloodshed. Before his death two years later, he forcefully converted most of the Arabian Peninsula to his new faith and built a small empire.
How do you think that sweet man accomplished that forceful conversion?

 

[Augustus]

Find me doing what? Did you find me saying or intimating that I actually believed the passage I quoted? No.

Yes

Apologetics go only so far, then one should face the truth.

You are partly right - there is no other evidence whatsoever. However, as an atheist, I don't accept the beliefs of some Muslims as evidence of anything whatsoever.

Want to see yourself doing it again?

Riiight. Let's blame the Imperial Powers. Let's blame the Brits for stuff that occurred the Middle East in the 7th Century.


The Origins Of The Shiite-Sunni Split original split between Sunnis and Shiites occurred soon after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, in the year 632.

"There was a dispute in the community of Muslims in present-day Saudi Arabia over the question of succession," says Augustus Norton, author of Hezbollah: A Short History. "That is to say, who is the rightful successor to the prophet?"

Most of the Prophet Muhammad's followers wanted the community of Muslims to determine who would succeed him. A smaller group thought that someone from his family should take up his mantle. They favored Ali, who was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah.

"Shia believed that leadership should stay within the family of the prophet," notes Gregory Gause, professor of Middle East politics at the University of Vermont. "And thus they were the partisans of Ali, his cousin and son-in-law. Sunnis believed that leadership should fall to the person who was deemed by the elite of the community to be best able to lead the community. And it was fundamentally that political division that began the Sunni-Shia split."

The Sunnis prevailed and chose a successor to be the first caliph.

Eventually, Ali was chosen as the fourth caliph, but not before violent conflict broke out. Two of the earliest caliphs were murdered. War erupted when Ali became caliph, and he too was killed in fighting in the year 661 near the town of Kufa, now in present-day Iraq.

The violence and war split the small community of Muslims into two branches that would never reunite.

The war continued with Ali's son, Hussein, leading the Shiites. "Hussein rejected the rule of the caliph at the time," says Vali Nasr, author of The Shia Revival. "He stood up to the caliph's very large army on the battlefield. He and 72 members of his family and companions fought against a very large Arab army of the caliph. They were all massacred."

Hussein was decapitated and his head carried in tribute to the Sunni caliph in Damascus. His body was left on the battlefield at Karbala. Later it was buried there.

 

[icehorse]

By which you mean, "it's totally relevant" ?

If you think like that, its your baby.

We've been here before @firedragon. You are under the illusion that your conscious mind is in control, when in fact it's usually our unconscious brains that are in control.

 

[firedragon]

We've been here before @firedragon. You are under the illusion that your conscious mind is in control, when in fact it's usually our unconscious brains that are in control.

Great. Thanks.