Why do some Christians reject Baptism saves?

[Kenny]

The Bible tells you where every human has gone at death. That is to sleep.

The apostle Peter said that not even David went to heaven:

"For David did not ascend to the heavens."-Acts 2:34.

Jesus himself said that no man has ascended to heaven accept for the one that descended:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

Even Paul said that the first century Christians that were anointed with holy spirit and called to serve in heaven as kings and priests should console each other with the fact that they are awaiting sleeping in death for Jesus' return:

"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope.  For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus."-1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14.

All the scriptures that talk about the resurrection to heavenly life say it is at the return and manifestation of Jesus in heaven:

"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;  because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.  Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.  So keep comforting one another with these words."-1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.

Talking of the resurrection to heavenly life we are told that it is when Jesus returns. Those who have fallen asleep in death will be raised first, and then those of us remaining alive during that time will be caught away with them.

This time is after the great tribulation:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."-Matthew 24:29-31.

So no human has ever ascended to heaven accept for the one that descended, the son of man, Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. He now reigns in heaven at God's right hand. He will shortly come to wage war against this wicked system. After the great tribulation though, and before Armageddon, Jesus descends with the commanding call of the archangel he is, and he will resurrect those who have been called to reign in heaven, and then he will sweep away those of us that are remaining alive during that time.

There is only a limited number who have been called to heaven. And they are sleeping in death along with everyone else awaiting the return of Christ. According to the unfailing words of truth in the Bible.

There is a second resurrection. This is not of the kings and priests who will reign in heaven, but of the rest of mankind, both righteous and unrighteous to an earthly paradise. Those kings in heaven will rule over those on earth.

The issue I have isn't so much the scriptures that you quote but the absence of the scriptures that don't match your beliefs.

And then, of course, the appropriation of scriptures that you mentioned that have nothing to do with the numbers that go to Heaven and return to earth:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[Eyes to See]

The issue I have isn't so much the scriptures that you quote but the absence of the scriptures that don't match your beliefs.

And then, of course, the appropriation of scriptures that you mentioned that have nothing to do with the numbers that go to Heaven and return to earth:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It's good that you don't have a problem with scripture. My beliefs are found in scripture and were shared with you from scripture. I gave no interpretation of said scriptures, only used them to explain themselves.

Of course, you did say you have a problem with the scriptures I quoted because they are not supported by scriptures. Although they themselves are scriptures, and I actually quoted several scriptures that said the exact same thing.

So if you don't believe what they say you actually do have a problem with them. You contradict yourself in other words.

 

[74x12]

The thief on the cross was never baptized but was saved.

We don't know for sure he wasn't baptized by John the baptist or even as a disciple of Jesus previously. But assuming he wasn't baptized; that was because there was no time. But, if he wanted -before the time of his death- to have been Jesus' disciple then no doubt they would have baptized him.

So of course I would never say that someone is not saved if they had no time or opportunity to be baptized; but if they do have opportunity then the teaching of Jesus is pretty clear. (Although again, I'm not the judge of their salvation.)

Anyone can now be baptized in the holy Spirit which is how you become part of His body. Because no one can be the literal body of Christ without the Spirit of Christ indwelling them. So this is the true baptism of God as John the baptist predicted in Luke 3:16.

But, we still believe baptism in the water for "the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) is a commandment rather than an option.

 

[Kenny]

It's good that you don't have a problem with scripture. My beliefs are found in scripture and were shared with you from scripture. I gave no interpretation of said scriptures, only used them to explain themselves.

Of course, you did say you have a problem with the scriptures I quoted because they are not supported by scriptures. Although they themselves are scriptures, and I actually quoted several scriptures that said the exact same thing.

So if you don't believe what they say you actually do have a problem with them. You contradict yourself in other words.

I think you misunderstood. Your interpretations, as far as I could see, wasn't supported by other scriptures if but contradictory to other scriptures which simply means your interpretation wasn't in harmony.

 

[Kenny]

We don't know for sure he wasn't baptized by John the baptist or even as a disciple of Jesus previously. But assuming he wasn't baptized; that was because there was no time. But, if he wanted -before the time of his death- to have been Jesus' disciple then no doubt they would have baptized him.

So of course I would never say that someone is not saved if they had no time or opportunity to be baptized; but if they do have opportunity then the teaching of Jesus is pretty clear. (Although again, I'm not the judge of their salvation.)

Anyone can now be baptized in the holy Spirit which is how you become part of His body. Because no one can be the literal body of Christ without the Spirit of Christ indwelling them. So this is the true baptism of God as John the baptist predicted in Luke 3:16.

But, we still believe baptism in the water for "the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) is a commandment rather than an option.

Yes, I understood that. We also understand that it isn't an "option". Just not for salvation. For many of us, it is an outside picture of what has already transpired on the inside.

 

[Nova2216]

Nova2216 Yes I again agree "Baptism saves" there are many Christians that would disagree!

Sorry I must disagree with you on this matter.

Anyone who disagrees with clear and plain scripture such as (1Peter 3:20,21) and (Mark 16:15,16) is not a Christian.

The eunuch was asked if he understood the information he was reading before he was baptized in (Acts 8:26-40)..

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

TRUE / FALSE

 

[Nova2216]

Likewise. I have nothing to add unless you are implying or saying that according to the New Testament someone can enter Paradise or the Garden without being saved.



They are and / or will be counted under it.



Luk 1:37



Every descendant of Eve that has died and is not blotted out of the book of life is baptized in Christ death.

Scripture please to prove Abraham lived under the NT.

 

[Nova2216]

The thief on the cross was never baptized but was saved.

Prove it.

 

[Kenny]

Prove it.

He was on the cross with Roman soldiers all around him. His legs were later broken and he died before he was pulled from the cross.

 

[Kenny]

Scripture please to prove Abraham lived under the NT.

Gal 3: 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

NT faith started with Abraham.

 

[Nova2216]

Gal 3: 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

NT faith started with Abraham.

Not according to (Luke 16:16) (Rom. 10:1-4) (Gal. 3:24,25) (Gal. 4:22-31) (Heb. 7:12) (Rom. 7:1-4)

 

[Nova2216]

He was on the cross with Roman soldiers all around him. His legs were later broken and he died before he was pulled from the cross.

That is only a small part of his life.
He could have been baptized in water by john and johns baptism was for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4).


The Thief on the Cross
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

Legion are those who dismiss water baptism as prerequisite to salvation on the grounds that “the thief on the cross was not baptized.” The thought is that since the thief was suspended on the cross when Jesus said to him, “Today you will be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), he was being pronounced as saved by Christ without being required to be baptized. As one well-known preacher put it, “There was no water within 10 miles of the cross.” Please give consideration to two important observations.

First, the thief may well have been baptized prior to being placed on the cross. Considerable scriptural evidence points to this conclusion (Matthew 3:5-6; Mark 1:4-5; Luke 3:21; 7:29-30). If he was, in fact, baptized, he would have been baptized with the baptism administered by John the baptizer. John’s baptism was temporary (i.e., in force only during his personal ministry, terminating at the death of Christ). However, even John’s baptism was “for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:4) and, hence, essential for salvation for those to whom it was addressed. John’s baptism, like the one administered by Jesus while He was on Earth, was unique and temporary. It was addressed only to Jews, and only to the Jews who populated the vicinity of Jerusalem and Judea. It was designed to prepare the Jewish people for the arrival of the Messiah.

Read more here.
The Thief on the Cross

 

[Dogknox20]

I don't know, but I also don't understand why they think Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough to encompass 'all sin's' either. Like it wasn't good enough...

So, to some extent, I think that is an extension of that idea. However, if Jesus is an agent of the all-mighty, then it seems preposterous on-it's-face to accept that his power is limited and that his sacrifice doesn't apply to all and any sin in the future. If God's power becomes limited we could argue that he then ceases to be a God.

What the Bible says:

1) Jesus died for our sins. All of them. It didn't come with a time limitation.
2) Accepting Jesus was good enough to get into heaven.
3) Baptism was a symbol of faith, but not completely necessary. Nothing is more important than #2.

What Christians Believe:

1) Apparently, the sins before Jesus' sacrifice were null and void. After... Not so much.
2) If you're sinful you get put out of heaven.
3) Baptism is mandatory. You can't get into heaven without it.

To me, these are simply corrupted teachings on display, lol.

Mindmaster It's good to meet you... I reply... I asked for scriptures you did not post any scriptures! So all you have is YOUR interpretation and teachings YOU have been taught about the scriptures!
Example... As to your #2 (above) 2) Accepting Jesus was good enough to get into heaven. Where is that in the scriptures?
>>>> 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. <<<<< NOTE: This verse John 3:16 Jesus is still talking to Nicodemus about being born again! Jesus continues to talk to Nicodemus until John 3:21 THEN...
Mindmaster then right after Jesus talks to Nicodemus he goes and baptized with water in John 3:22! Clearly to "Believe In Jesus" is to believe the words of Jesus "The Word"! Clearly Jesus is telling Nicodemus.. "Believe my words and get baptized"!

Mindmaster You say "3) Baptism was a symbol of faith, but not completely necessary. Nothing is more important than #2."
I reply to these words pointing to Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Mindmaster 3000 were ADDED to the Body of Jesus by baptism... The scriptures tell you 3000 were saved by baptism! Being "IN Jesus" Being IMMERSED INTO Jesus means God is your father!

 

[Dogknox20]

All is very well, thanks for asking. God is faithful... even when I am not faithful.

Yes, you are right about before Pentecost. But then I would have to ask, "Why would it be necessary, a physical substance that is waiting for redemption, be a requirement for salvation? And how can one be filled with the Holy Spirit of God before being recreated into a new creation?"

Of course, as do I, many believe that those who died in faith pre-Pentecost still ended up in the Throne Room.

Then you have a theological problem of, "What happened to those who received Jesus before being thrown into the Roman Colosseum?" - Did they not get saved because there was no time for water baptism?

All in all I agree that you should be baptized-and I don't think there are Christians who reject it but rather question it as a requirement for salvation. I just don't see enough evidence that it was a requirement that denied salvation if not accomplished.

KenS thank you for your post.... First where is the scriptures? You post your speculation and ideas but no scriptures! I point out; No one enters the throne room except God' children! Baptism makes us Gods Children!
THINK.... The people of Moses escaped Egypt by passing through water. Egypt represents slavery & repression the waters of the Red Sea washed away the evil! The man "Naaman" was washed clean by dunking seven times in water! Throughout the bible God uses material things to teach and save! The Brass Serpent Moses holds up saves all who look at it! Etc Etc
KenS Look at the Great Commission Matthew 28... "Go make disciples of all nations BAPTIZING!" Clearly the scriptures tell you "Baptism makes disciples!"
Matthew 12 tells us "Jesus is the Brother of Disciples!" IF...
KenS if Jesus was your brother then God would naturally be your Father!

 

[Dogknox20]

Baptism on its own does not "save" someone. It is, however, a saving ordinance or sacrament that, among other things, demonstrates our obedience to God. For me, it means that I've entered into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, wherein I promise to always remember Him and keep His commandments, and He, in turn, promises me salvation and the strength to overcome my weaknesses.

Katzpur it's a pleasurer to meet you... But where is your scriptures!? No scriptures then all you have is speculation and what you have been taught!
You say.. Baptism does NOT save?
Look at Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Katzpur Scriptures tell you.. Baptism removes sins! I would think if you are sinless you would enter heaven! The Baptized receive the GIFT! BELOW...
Katzpur below this verse is Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

3000 were ADDED to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost by being Baptized! Logic says.. If you are IMMERSED into the body of Jesus you would be saved... God would be your father!

 

[Dogknox20]

Jesus sent the apostles out to baptize in the name. that is the part which is by fire and cleans the inside of the cup

Fool it is good to hear from you again.... BUT.. Where is your scriptures to back your post up?!
Do you mean Matthew 28? >>>> "Go in the name of God"... "Representing God"... "Speaking for God" make God' Children by Baptizing all nations?!
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Is this what you mean to say... The Church represents God on earth as an ambassador of God! Speaking for God Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Make disciples with all of God' authority!? Is this it?

Matthew 12 tells you.. "Jesus is the Brother of the disciples" scriptures tell you (not me) "Disciples are made by baptizing!" (Great Commission)
Fool Church does not use FIRE to baptize the "CHURCH has always used WATER to baptize!" It takes TWO, TWO TWO to form a child not just one! The Bride/Church re-Forms Adams children into God' children the Groom/God sends the Holy Spirit/fire! Two parents to re-Form the children of Adam!
Logic alone should make you question IF...
Fool if God is your father then Who is your mother!? No father gains the title "Father" until a mother gives birth!

Baptism removes sins...38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Logic would say.. If you are without sin you can enter heaven!

 

[Mindmaster]

Mindmaster It's good to meet you... I reply... I asked for scriptures you did not post any scriptures! So all you have is YOUR interpretation and teachings YOU have been taught about the scriptures!

Yes, this is called 'reverse preaching.' Essentially, its the same huckster scam that someone uses on someone when they giving a psychic reading. They start asking people about something and then start working it into a narrative to start shaping their beliefs. But, the joke, in this case, is I have no beliefs to shape.

I have no interpretation of the teachings beyond what is on the paper. I am not a Christian, and that's what Christian's have. No where in The Bible does it suggest Baptism is mandatory in any sense, especially the versions that are used by the Catholic denomination. It also has been a symbolic gesture only. It's stated directly in The Bible that the only 'way' to heaven is accepting Jesus as one's savior. That doesn't come with any other conditions, including Baptism.

Specifically, in regard to Catholics, the tradition of Baptism was mandated because they believe unbaptized babies would end up in 'limbo' (a place worse than purgatory) if they did not. Again, this isn't in The Bible at all either and one of their own inventions. Catholicism has only about half of its core beliefs based on The Bible, the rest are things that were made up and were pushed into acceptance by Papal decree. I was raised a Catholic so I completely understand their beliefs even without a book in front of me, and my wife was raised SDA and they have a much more literal interpretation of the Bible -- that I often appreciate. Anyway, many of these discussions about the literal understanding versus the faith beliefs were just the result of my chats with her. SDA's follow a much more literal understanding of The Bible, so it was interesting to have that discussion -- for example she had no idea what purgatory or limbo were, etc.

 

[Dogknox20]

Sorry I must disagree with you on this matter.

Anyone who disagrees with clear and plain scripture such as (1Peter 3:20,21) and (Mark 16:15,16) is not a Christian.

The eunuch was asked if he understood the information he was reading before he was baptized in (Acts 8:26-40)..

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

TRUE / FALSE

Nova2216 very good point... Yes understand the TRUTH before being IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus! Think about Philip and the Eunuch.... The story starts with "How can I understand unless someone teaches me!
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Philip starts TEACHING with He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, Old Testament there was NO New Testament! From Philips TEACHING, it is very evident the Eunuch arrives at the TRUTH.. "Water Baptism saves" proven by this verse.. 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”
You are bold enough to say.. Anyone who disagrees with clear and plain scripture such as (1Peter 3:20,21) and (Mark 16:15,16) is not a Christian.
I point out there are MANY church that would disagree with you and they claim to be Christian! THUS this thread! I want scriptures! I want scriptures to prove the Pro & Con to the discussion!

Your words... Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
I ask: Could someone IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus NOT be saved!?
I ask: Could someone who only believe; Jesus is God BE saved!? (Good Thief)

Who is saved as a Child of the King who is saved as a friend of Jesus!? I think being saved has deeper meaning!

 

[Dogknox20]

Yes, this is called 'reverse preaching.' Essentially, its the same huckster scam that someone uses on someone when they giving a psychic reading. They start asking people about something and then start working it into a narrative to start shaping their beliefs. But, the joke, in this case, is I have no beliefs to shape.

I have no interpretation of the teachings beyond what is on the paper. I am not a Christian, and that's what Christian's have. No where in The Bible does it suggest Baptism is mandatory in any sense, especially the versions that are used by the Catholic denomination. It also has been a symbolic gesture only. It's stated directly in The Bible that the only 'way' to heaven is accepting Jesus as one's savior. That doesn't come with any other conditions, including Baptism.

Specifically, in regard to Catholics, the tradition of Baptism was mandated because they believe unbaptized babies would end up in 'limbo' (a place worse than purgatory) if they did not. Again, this isn't in The Bible at all either and one of their own inventions. Catholicism has only about half of its core beliefs based on The Bible, the rest are things that were made up and were pushed into acceptance by Papal decree. I was raised a Catholic so I completely understand their beliefs even without a book in front of me, and my wife was raised SDA and they have a much more literal interpretation of the Bible -- that I often appreciate. Anyway, many of these discussions about the literal understanding versus the faith beliefs were just the result of my chats with her. SDA's follow a much more literal understanding of The Bible, so it was interesting to have that discussion -- for example she had no idea what purgatory or limbo were, etc.

Mindmaster it's all very nice what you said.. BUT! This is a thread on "Same Faith Debates" clearly you are in the wrong area! Your words.. "I am not a Christian"
I think I was very clear.. I want scriptures to back up your replies! You have NO, ZERO Scriptures only accusation and conjecture your personal ideas.. Maybe you should start a church? Just saying!

 

[Fool]

Fool it is good to hear from you again.... BUT.. Where is your scriptures to back your post up?!
Do you mean Matthew 28? >>>> "Go in the name of God"... "Representing God"... "Speaking for God" make God' Children by Baptizing all nations?!
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Is this what you mean to say... The Church represents God on earth as an ambassador of God! Speaking for God Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Make disciples with all of God' authority!? Is this it?

Matthew 12 tells you.. "Jesus is the Brother of the disciples" scriptures tell you (not me) "Disciples are made by baptizing!" (Great Commission)
Fool Church does not use FIRE to baptize the "CHURCH has always used WATER to baptize!" It takes TWO, TWO TWO to form a child not just one! The Bride/Church re-Forms Adams children into God' children the Groom/God sends the Holy Spirit/fire! Two parents to re-Form the children of Adam!
Logic alone should make you question IF...
Fool if God is your father then Who is your mother!? No father gains the title "Father" until a mother gives birth!

Baptism removes sins...38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Logic would say.. If you are without sin you can enter heaven!

matthew 28:10

the hallowed name of Our father

the name thou shall not take in vain

the name of the Father written in the forehead of the 144,000

the name above all names


exodus 3:14

exodus 3:15 signifies the Lord in us and not some other place, the omnipotent one