• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why do some scientists reject evolution?

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
In any large group of people you are going to find a few who hold unusual opinions. This is only to be expected. The question then is are they right to hold these minority views.

I don't need to igore them, nor do I need to launch ad hominem attacks at them. But the mere fact that these people exist is not sufficient evidence against evolution, nor is it evidence at all.

All I can do is examine their arguments against evolution.

So I put the question back to you rusra02. Why do you think Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig rejects evolution? Do you think his arguments are valid, sound, and scientific? If so just present what you thing is his best argument (or arguments). No need to get into personalities.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You do realize that there are literally millions of theistic scientists who accept evolution, including the science departments of each and every single one of the world's most prestigious religious Universities, right?

You do realize that if any dared even question the ToE, they would do so at the peril of their career and livelihood?

Here is another scientist who rejects the theory, and who also gives his reasons.

"In my research I often work with the principles of physics. I seek to understand how and why certain things happen. In my field of study, I find clear evidence that everything I observe has a cause. I believe that it is scientifically reasonable to accept that God is the original cause of all things in nature. The laws of nature are too stable for me not to believe that they were put in place by an Organizer, a Creator." Bryon Leon Meadows
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
You do realize that if any dared even question the ToE, they would do so at the peril of their career and livelihood?

Here is another scientist who rejects the theory, and who also gives his reasons.

"In my research I often work with the principles of physics. I seek to understand how and why certain things happen. In my field of study, I find clear evidence that everything I observe has a cause. I believe that it is scientifically reasonable to accept that God is the original cause of all things in nature. The laws of nature are too stable for me not to believe that they were put in place by an Organizer, a Creator." Bryon Leon Meadows
that doesn't address anything. not does it follow logic. It just jumps. and it denies the obvious question where did god come from, or about the unobservability of god....
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The following is a quote from genetic scientist Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig:
"My empirical research in genetics and my studies of biological subjects such as physiology and morphology bring me face-to-face with the enormous and often unfathomable complexities of life. My study of these topics has reinforced my conviction that life, even the most basic forms of life, must have an intelligent origin.

Why does Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig reject revolution. Well in his own words he had a conviction preceding this empirical research, and the fact that his conviction has been reinforced, shows me that this guy isn't too keen on the scientific methods.

But I can't read any of his stuff cause it's all in German, so...
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Disproving evolutionism is roughly as possible as disproving gravity.

I think this point made by Michael Behe is pertinent: He said concerning those attempting to advocate for evolution of cellular structures that they "have no basis for their claims. Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority,” he wrote. “There is no publication in the scientific literature—in prestigious journals, specialty journals, or books—that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred. . . . The assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster.” (W01/08 pp.16,17)

So are the claims that Evolution is an established fact. Mere bluster, IMO.
 

WyattDerp

Active Member
You do realize that if any dared even question the ToE, they would do so at the peril of their career and livelihood?

Yeah well, only you kinda made that up... while it IS true is that some think if they understand some basic facts about evolution they'll go to hell because it's just a plot by Satan or something.
 

WyattDerp

Active Member
That many scientists reject the ToE.

Even if one person was "many"; what matters are their arguments...! That they're "scientists" doesn't mean squat. That's just a word, like "expert", or "God". Does that even get through to you?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
In 2004, Behe published a paper with David Snoke, in the scientific journal Protein Science that uses a simple mathematical model to simulate the rate of evolution of proteins by point mutation,[28] which he states supports irreducible complexity, based on the calculation of the probability of mutations required for evolution to succeed. However, the paper does not mention intelligent design nor irreducible complexity, which were removed, according to Behe, at the behest of the reviewers. Nevertheless, The Discovery Institute lists it as one of the "Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design".[29]

Michael Lynch authored a response,[30] to which Behe and Snoke responded.[31] Protein Science discussed the papers in an editorial.[32]

Numerous scientists have debunked the work, pointing out that not only has it been shown that a supposedly irreducibly complex structure can evolve, but that it can do so within a reasonable time even subject to unrealistically harsh restrictions, and noting that Behe & Snoke's paper does not properly include natural selection and genetic redundancy. When the issue raised by Behe and Snoke is tested in the modern framework of evolutionary biology, numerous simple pathways to complexity have been shown. In their response, Behe and Snoke assumed that intermediate mutations are always damaging, where modern science allows for neutral or positive mutations.[33] Some of the critics have also noted that the Discovery Institute continues to claim the paper as 'published evidence for design,' despite its offering no design theory nor attempting to model the design process, and therefore not providing an alternative to evolution.[34]
Many of Behe's statements have been challenged by biologist Kenneth Miller in his book, Finding Darwin's God. Behe has subsequently disputed Miller's points in an online essay.[35]


From Kitzmiller v Dover case:



  • "Professor Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity depends on ignoring ways in which evolution is known to occur. Although Professor Behe is adamant in his definition of irreducible complexity when he says a precursor 'missing a part is by definition nonfunctional,' what he obviously means is that it will not function in the same way the system functions when all the parts are present. For example in the case of the bacterial flagellum, removal of a part may prevent it from acting as a rotary motor. However, Professor Behe excludes, by definition, the possibility that a precursor to the bacterial flagellum functioned not as a rotary motor, but in some other way, for example as a secretory system."[54]
  • "Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not, in fact, irreducibly complex."[55]
  • "In fact, on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not sufficient evidence of evolution, and that it was not "good enough."[56]
  • "With ID, proponents assert that they refuse to propose hypotheses on the designer’s identity, do not propose a mechanism, and the designer, he/she/it/they, has never been seen. ... In addition, Professor Behe agreed that for the design of human artifacts, we know the designer and its attributes and we have a baseline for human design that does not exist for design of biological systems. Professor Behe’s only response to these seemingly insurmountable points of disanalogy was that the inference still works in science fiction movies."[57]
Michael Behe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Seems Behe's claims don't hold in the court of law. I guess the courts are corrupted from the science conspiracy!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think this point made by Michael Behe is pertinent: He said concerning those attempting to advocate for evolution of cellular structures that they "have no basis for their claims. Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority,” he wrote. “There is no publication in the scientific literature—in prestigious journals, specialty journals, or books—that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred. . . . The assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster.” (W01/08 pp.16,17)

So are the claims that Evolution is an established fact. Mere bluster, IMO.

Your opinion is based on distortion and ignorance, though.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You do realize that if any dared even question the ToE, they would do so at the peril of their career and livelihood?
You do realize that that's total garbage? There's no scientific conspiracy that is getting such people fired - it is their incompetence as scientists and their embracing of unscientific concepts that do so. If there was any genuine, scientific evidence against evolution, then where is it? Why are you relying on these baseless claims and quote-mines to support your argument when all that really matters are the facts?

Here is another scientist who rejects the theory, and who also gives his reasons.

"In my research I often work with the principles of physics. I seek to understand how and why certain things happen. In my field of study, I find clear evidence that everything I observe has a cause. I believe that it is scientifically reasonable to accept that God is the original cause of all things in nature. The laws of nature are too stable for me not to believe that they were put in place by an Organizer, a Creator." Bryon Leon Meadows
Again, why do you think the opinion of this ONE PERSON matters so much? What is your point? That SOME scientists are creationists/theists? Congratulations, you've pointed out something that we already know. The point is that creationism is not, and never has been, scientifically credible. You've done absolutely nothing to contest that.

Also, this quote doesn't say anything about whether Byron Leon Meadows accepts or rejects evolution, just that they believe in a creator. No facts, no evidence, just that particular person's opinion.

And, guess what? Nobody cares.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You well know Professor Lonnig is not the only scientist who does not believe the ToE is science.

I do. You well know that 99.9% of biologists do accept the theory of evolution as a fact.

I'll ask my question again: Why should I care about the tiny, tiny, TINY percentage of those who don't? WHERE IS THEIR EVIDENCE?
 

McBell

Unbound
As I suspected, since evolutionists cannot attack the logic against evolution, they attack those who expose the fallacies of evolution. A common tactic of propagandists.
How is what you did any different than what you whine about here?

YOU picked a "scientist" that has long been known to have a personal biased against evolution and present not one of his arguments against evolution, but his personal opinions about it and then whine about people pointing out what is wrong with what you presented.

So your accusation of not attacking the logic against evolution is nothing more than a blatantly dishonest attempt at playing the martyr.

Now how about you present some of this alleged "logic against evolution" instead of whining about people not addressing things you have not presented?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It would appear ToE advocates choose not to believe the facts. Hmm...

You haven't presented any.

The Question in the OP is "Why do some scientists reject evolution?"

It's been answered. You're only rebuttal so far has been to scold anyone who isn't giving you the answer you were looking for.
 
Top