Why do trinitarian ideologists say that Jesus Christ is YHWH?

[101G]

Yes, LORD God (Psalm 110) is where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) appears for Yahweh and in English Jehovah at KJV Psalm 83:18
The other Lord ( lower-case letters ) stands for Lord Jesus and No Tetragrammaton applied to Lord Jesus.

ERROR, is not "Lord" your Yahweh in Psalms 110:5 the same "Lord" in verse 1 on the emphatic form? "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

Lord here,
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

101G.

 

[Soapy]

Copies, copies, copies. God had even the kings make copies of His Word.
That way if some were destroyed others would remain.

Even better than that. The word of God is encoded within the scriptures itself.

 

[Soapy]

Soapy, as a Jew, I hate the doctrine of Trinitarianism. But Trinitarianism is not somehow "behind" the tradition of substituting LORD for YHWH.

Maybe for you. I am not a Jew and therefore my dispute is with trinitarianism and their desperate desire to obliterate the name of the only true God.

I didn’t know about the Septuagint as a point of discussion so I am delighted that you showed me it’s rise and fall and the beginnings of the attempt to destroy God’s holy everlasting name.

When I dispute with Trinitarians on the subject of the name of God, I find that they often absolutely refuse to claim it as a name, saying, “Because we don’t know his to pronounce it”. And even now you find they vilify the JWs who do pronounce it as ‘Jehovah’.

But that’s one faction of Trinitarians. Another faction claim the use of YHWH (but not ‘YAHWEH’ nor ‘Jehovah’ or any derivative) but say that it is the name of Jesus (Christ).

Ok, I know that these are not serious debaters. I know they are simply trying to twist they’d say out of a bad situation they find themselves in. But this then is read by other Trinitarians who blindly use the errant material in their debates but csnnot justify it when I ask got explanation such as:

• ‘We know the Son of God is called Jesus but what is the name of the Father’?

Their answer is that both are called ‘YHWH’ and the spirit of God is also called ‘YHWH’… but spoken so only after they are reminded that there are three in TRINITY (they forget their third god unless they are reminded). For instance, Jesus only said that he and the Father are one, and that he desired that those called by God should be one with the Father and he… there is no ‘one with the spirit of God’!).

Moreover, how is baptism in the name of Jesus if all three are called ‘YHWH’… only the Son of man is called ‘Jesus’… and God is not a man!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe for you. I

No no no. That remark is not going to fly. OBJECTIVELY, the Jewish tradition of substituting Lord predates Christianity, not just verbally, but when doing translations such as the Septuagint.

I'm going to let you go. I find that when someone cannot let go to their idea even when presented with facts to the contrary, that there is really no hope of a rational discussion.

 

[Soapy]

No no no. That remark is not going to fly. OBJECTIVELY, the Jewish tradition of substituting Lord predates Christianity, not just verbally, but when doing translations such as the Septuagint.

I'm going to let you go. I find that when someone cannot let go to their idea even when presented with facts to the contrary, that there is really no hope of a rational discussion.

Just before you let me go, please answer the following questions for me:

1. Can you post a section of Septuagint scriptures showing the written ‘LORD’ (in place of ‘YHWH’)
2. When did the Jews stop using the septuagint?
3. Why did the Jews stop using the Septuagint?

That’s it… it doesn’t matter if you say you showed me already, please just do it for this record.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just before you let me go, please answer the following questions for me:

1. Can you post a section of Septuagint scriptures showing the written ‘LORD’ (in place of ‘YHWH’)

Exodus 20:1-2
ΚΑΙ ἐλάλησε Κύριος πάντας τοὺς λόγους τούτους λέγων· 2 ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, ὅστις ἐξήγαγόν σε ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου, ἐξ οἴκου δουλείας.

Please note the word Κύριος (kyrios), which means LORD, substituted for the Yad Hey Vav Hey.

 

[Soapy]

Exodus 20:1-2
ΚΑΙ ἐλάλησε Κύριος πάντας τοὺς λόγους τούτους λέγων· 2 ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, ὅστις ἐξήγαγόν σε ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου, ἐξ οἴκου δουλείας.

Please note the word Κύριος (kyrios), which means LORD, substituted for the Yad Hey Vav Hey.

And answers to the other two questions?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And answers to the other two questions?

I try to keep things on topic. The other two questions would have sent us down a rabbit hole as they were only marginally tangential.

So do you now acknowledge that the Jews who translated the Septuagint substituted Kyrios (Lord) for the yad hey vav hey?

 

[Soapy]

I try to keep things on topic. The other two questions would have sent us down a rabbit hole as they were only marginally tangential.

So do you now acknowledge that the Jews who translated the Septuagint substituted Kyrios (Lord) for the yad hey vav hey?

I read what you posted and do not disagree.

But I’m still saying that since the Septuagint is not a credible translation then it doesn’t count as as anything since it does exactly what I ALSO stated in that it was the beginning of trinitarianism.

Since the Septuagint was DISCARDED at the same time as the trinity came into being, it is very highly possible that those who preached trinity that God did not have a name since they were (like the Jews in the Septuagint) decidedly afraid to speak it. This reticence has led to the trinitarian idea that God does not have a name.

How is claiming that God does not have a name, when God gave us his name, bring glory to God?

I read this about Jews:

• “The name of God used most often in the Hebrew Bible is the Tetragrammaton (Hebrew: יהוה, romanized: YHWH). Jews traditionally do not pronounce it, and instead refer to God as HaShem, literally "the Name". In prayer, the Tetragrammaton is substituted with the pronunciation Adonai, meaning "My Lord"

But since you say that you are Jewish and believe in the Septuagint, and I am non-trinitarian Christian who is not fearful of saying ‘YHWH’ in holiness, then we will just leave if there.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You are correct that the LORD in all caps is a substitution for the yad hey vav hey in hebrew. However, the lord in question (small l) is David, not the messiah. Common Christian error.

I find David's words applied directly to the promised 'seed' (Gen 3:15) or Messiah - Acts 2:34-36
The King would Not rule from earthly Jerusalem but rule from Yad Hey Vav Hey (or, Iod He Vau He) right hand. (Tetragrammaton)
In other words, kingly authority over the -> whole Earth - Psalm 2:6-8
Remember that Messiah would be a priest in the manner of Melchizedek whereas David was Not.
After David is resurrected he will be a prince on Earth under Messiah's millennial kingdom reign over Earth - Ezekiel 34:24
Any thoughts about Jeremiah 23:5; Jeremiah 33:15

 

[Brian2]

I find David's words applied directly to the promised 'seed' (Gen 3:15) or Messiah - Acts 2:34-36
The King would Not rule from earthly Jerusalem but rule from Yad Hey Vav Hey (or, Iod He Vau He) right hand. (Tetragrammaton)
In other words, kingly authority over the -> whole Earth - Psalm 2:6-8
Remember that Messiah would be a priest in the manner of Melchizedek whereas David was Not.
After David is resurrected he will be a prince on Earth under Messiah's millennial kingdom reign over Earth - Ezekiel 34:24
Any thoughts about Jeremiah 23:5; Jeremiah 33:15

I like the idea of Acts 2:34-36 that David did not go to heaven and so the Lord of Psalm 110:1 is not David, because the Lord of Psalm 110:1 sits on the right hand of YHWH.
This is also a good argument that the idea of the Messiah coming twice is in the Hebrew Scriptures.
When it comes to Ezek 34:24
Ezek 34:20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.

I see David here as referring to the Messiah since David is used as a type of the Messiah in other places and here. The word "prince" is used to indicate that this David is the Son of God, as in Psalm 2.
It is this Son who not only rules on the throne of David but judges the earth.
Ezek 37:24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes.

Then things start getting more confusing when we get to passages like Zech 14:9
Zech 14:9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.

 

[Soapy]

I like the idea of Acts 2:34-36 that David did not go to heaven and so the Lord of Psalm 110:1 is not David, because the Lord of Psalm 110:1 sits on the right hand of YHWH.
This is also a good argument that the idea of the Messiah coming twice is in the Hebrew Scriptures.
When it comes to Ezek 34:24
Ezek 34:20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.

I see David here as referring to the Messiah since David is used as a type of the Messiah in other places and here. The word "prince" is used to indicate that this David is the Son of God, as in Psalm 2.
It is this Son who not only rules on the throne of David but judges the earth.
Ezek 37:24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes.

Then things start getting more confusing when we get to passages like Zech 14:9
Zech 14:9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.

• “Zech 14:9 On that day YHWH will become King over all the earth— YHWH alone, and His name ONLY.”

Remember that the Jews were subjected to tribes and nations who believed in their own God and Gods each with their own names. The verse is saying that ‘on that day’ there will be no other God but the God of the Jews whose name is YHWH… and ONLY HIS NAME will exist on the lips of all who live on the earth.

But the term ‘King’ for God is not the same ‘King’ for humanity. Exchange the word, ‘King’, for ‘Ruler’ and it makes greater sense.

This is the same where Jesus Christ is called ‘King’ and yet Almighty God, YHWH, is also said to be ‘King’. God is king over all things seeing that He is their CREATOR, but Jesus is king over what YHWH GRANTED HIM (the kingdom of earth) - which does not include the kingdom of Heaven!!

But you are right that David, here, is used to refer to the prophesied Messiah.

And just to say: No one of humanity ever goes up to Heaven before Jesus Christ. Scriptures that appear to seem like it are mistranslated or misunderstood. For instance, Enoch was caught up in a whirlwind, and because no one could find his body afterwards, it was wrongly claimed he had gone up to Heaven. But the true translation was that he was taken up into ‘the Sky’ (the heavens - not spirit Heaven!)

 

[Brian2]

• “Zech 14:9 On that day YHWH will become King over all the earth— YHWH alone, and His name ONLY.”

Remember that the Jews were subjected to tribes and nations who believed in their own God and Gods each with their own names. The verse is saying that ‘on that day’ there will be no other God but the God of the Jews whose name is YHWH… and ONLY HIS NAME will exist on the lips of all who live on the earth.

But the term ‘King’ for God is not the same ‘King’ for humanity. Exchange the word, ‘King’, for ‘Ruler’ and it makes greater sense.

This is the same where Jesus Christ is called ‘King’ and yet Almighty God, YHWH, is also said to be ‘King’. God is king over all things seeing that He is their CREATOR, but Jesus is king over what YHWH GRANTED HIM (the kingdom of earth) - which does not include the kingdom of Heaven!!

But you are right that David, here, is used to refer to the prophesied Messiah.

And just to say: No one of humanity ever goes up to Heaven before Jesus Christ. Scriptures that appear to seem like it are mistranslated or misunderstood. For instance, Enoch was caught up in a whirlwind, and because no one could find his body afterwards, it was wrongly claimed he had gone up to Heaven. But the true translation was that he was taken up into ‘the Sky’ (the heavens - not spirit Heaven!)

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

With this verse and others Jesus appears to be ruler over all things in heaven and on earth.

 

[Soapy]

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

With this verse and others Jesus appears to be ruler over all things in heaven and on earth.

If you are claiming that Jesus is the first born of all creation then —- No, Brian…. No no no….!!!

First off, Jesus bring FIRSTBORN over all creation means that he is THE MOST BELOVED of all the creations of God.

FIRSTBORN is not FIRST BORN… two completely different things.

And it makes no sense to say that Jesus was ‘FIRST BORN’ of all creation, as many Trinitarians disrespectively claim. Jesus is the LAST ADAM… how can a LAST ADAM be before the FIRST ADAM…?

Of all that God ever created, Jesus is the greatest achievement - the
Most loved creation BECAUSE God is love and in him there is no unrighteousness, there is no sin, there is only holiness. And all of that is REFLECTED in Jesus CHRIST… therefore Jesus is called, ‘The image of God’… an image is a reflection of source: Jesus reflects God attitude: ‘My Father loves me because I always do what he commands me to do’:

• “I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” (John 14:31)

And for this reason. God WILL SET JESUS as the ruler over creation AFTER ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN SET TO RIGHTS and death and sin have been destroyed.

In the UK right now, Charles Windsor is SET TO BE KING of all Great Britain and commonwealth countries… We call him ‘King Charles’ but he is actually NOT YET KING until next month (May) when he is CROWNED in the coronation. The point being that is it as sure as sure that he will become so. In the same way Jesus WILL BE KING over creation WHEN HE TAKES HIS SEAT ON THE THRONE OF KING DAVID but his place is as sure as sure.

In any event, these kingships are FUTURE - not PRESENT. I know it is tradition to class such sureties as though they already are - but it must not be forgotten, as a proof, that they have not yet taken place.

‘All things were created’ FOR THE HUMAN SON OF GOD who is the FIRSTBORN.

ADAM, in the day of his creation, and up until he sinned, WAS THE FIRST BORN AND THE FIRSTBORN son of God (Luke 3:38).

The scriptures, however, tells, repeatedly, the stories of the FIRST BORN sinning, and ANOTHER is brought up to replace him:

• “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant [Adam], no place would have been sought for another [Adam].” (Heb 8:7)
• “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—…For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” (Romans 5:12…17)

And Jesus’ destiny is not that if ruler over Heaven. It is only to be ruler over the created world… It was created FOR HIM!!

Yahweh God REMAINS ruler over the GREAT KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:
…” In my Fathers house (Heaven) there are many rooms. I go to prepare a place (a room) for you”…
The House is GOD’s. A ROOM in the house is Jesus’….
———————————-
‘In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth’… (‘Heavens’ are the sky and Celestial spaces)

There are no scriptures which claim that God created ‘HEAVEN’, the spiritual realm.

“thrones or powers or rulers or authorities” are the ‘Stations’, angelic military and governmental positions of which Satan occupied the highest - the stewardship over all creation, hence he must relinquish it to the FIRSTBORN SON OF MANKIND since God did not create the world to be perpetually ruled over by angels.

So, can you show how you arrived at the claim that Jesus will rule over BOTH HEAVEN and creation at the end of time??

 

[Muffled]

I find No JW illicit false beliefs in God and in His Christ at www.jw.org

I believe the brainwashed never do.

 

[Muffled]

When it comes to Scripture it is not clear which claims are of Jesus, or that which the early church put on his lips.

I suppose the spirit of the Unicorn told you that.

 

[Muffled]

God is all time, that's why we have prophecy for us to see what God is seeing, or know.

101G.

I do not believe God is all time. I believe He is in all time and outside of it as well.

 

[pearl]

I suppose the spirit of the Unicorn told you that.

Actually, the reaping of sound scholarship.

 

[101G]

I do not believe God is all time. I believe He is in all time and outside of it as well.

he's the beginning and the END of this creation, which include ... "TIME".

remember, this is a created world.
101G

 

[Brian2]

And it makes no sense to say that Jesus was ‘FIRST BORN’ of all creation, as many Trinitarians disrespectively claim. Jesus is the LAST ADAM… how can a LAST ADAM be before the FIRST ADAM…?

Jesus became a man after Adam was a man.

Of all that God ever created, Jesus is the greatest achievement

Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
If all things were created through Him why do you think that Jesus also was created?

• “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant [Adam], no place would have been sought for another [Adam].” (Heb 8:7)

By "first covenant" is meant the Mosaic Covenant. Adam was not a Covenant.

And Jesus’ destiny is not that if ruler over Heaven. It is only to be ruler over the created world… It was created FOR HIM!!

Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
The heavens were created also and were created through and for Jesus.
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

Yahweh God REMAINS ruler over the GREAT KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:

Zech 14: 9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.

‘In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth’… (‘Heavens’ are the sky and Celestial spaces)

The heavens can also refer to the spiritual realm.