Why do you believe in God?

[InvestigateTruth]

In your perspective, what do you mean and how do you really justify, messengers of God being evidence for God? To accept someone as a messenger of God, by default one has to accept God I understand. But how do you establish one person as a messenger of God?

You are taking the Top-Down approach. Its an interesting approach.

I also consider Messengers of God as the highest evidence.
One does not have to first believe in God to believe in a Messenger.
The reason Messengers are the evidence, is because from them, supernatural signs and powers was manifested, something that cannot be explained by natural laws. An evidence for existence of a Supernatural. It is essentially also about investigating and conclude for oneself if this Person who claims to be Messenger, is a Liar, an imposter, or is an honest person. It is essentially a personal conclusion that each person can make based on his|her judgment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thats exactly opposing Fitrah. So you are saying Bahaullah was opposing Islam in a nutshell.

"Not believing" is not the same as "rejecting God". It means a neutral state. We are born, we don't know if there is a God or Not. We just simply don't have a belief about God. There is nothing in Quran that states otherwise either.
The children are born pure and without sin. This is different from stating, thus they already believe in God the moment they are born. Do you see it differently in the world? Do you think, the moment a child is born, he believes in Allah?

 

[firedragon]

One does not have to first believe in God to believe in a Messenger.

Can there be a "Messenger of God" without "a God"? Thats an oxymoron. I am not gonna engage in that logic IT.

"Not believing" is not the same as "rejecting God"

Thats not Fitrah. What you said is not relevant.

There is nothing in Quran that states otherwise either.

I thought you are an ardent, dogmatic hadith believer who justifies hadith even if they are weak when convenient. Strange now you ignore hadith and go to the Qur'an. If you think that helps you, its your prerogative. Anyway, I will upload a screen shot of a verse FYI. Another thread, another day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can there be a "Messenger of God" without "a God"? Thats an oxymoron. I am not gonna engage in that logic IT.



Thats not Fitrah. What you said is not relevant.



I thought you are an ardent, dogmatic hadith believer who justifies hadith even if they are weak when convenient. Strange now you ignore hadith and go to the Qur'an. If you think that helps you, its your prerogative. Anyway, I will upload a screen shot of a verse FYI. Another thread, another day.

View attachment 55881

I see you argue from a different frame of reference.

I see absolutely no conflict with what Baha'u'llah offered and what the Quran offered.

Why is it that a child brought up lovingly and honestly in a faith they were born into, mostly become followers of that Faith, or even no faith?

Nature and Nurtue have brought out the Gems of the Divine nature.

Yet children brought up without God with animal instincts, can find those gems, but nature and nurture have veiled the greater light.

I would offer to you, that It is very hard to have an open and honest discussion with you.

I think I know why though, as any rational argument put forward from the writings of Baha'u'llah, would mean there is rational thought emanating from those writings, correct me if that is a wrong observation?

All the best, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thats exactly opposing Fitrah. So you are saying Bahaullah was opposing Islam in a nutshell.

I posted the meaning of Fithrah and offered the quote is not in opposition but a clarification, in fact very complimentary.

What Baha'u'llah offered just helps me embrace the Message of Islam with greater devotion.

That is where I will leave it, as what is the point of all this? Fruitless arguments indicating we are both wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Why is it that a child brought up lovingly and honestly in a faith they were born into, mostly become followers of that Faith, or even no faith?

That is irrelevant to the point Valjean made or to the point I made. Bottomline is, there is an idea of Fitrah in the Quran, and you are opposing it. Thats it.

I would offer to you, that It is very hard to have an open and honest discussion with you.

Lol. See, this kind of thing, I can say to you. Let me do this so that you can see it yourself.

"I would offer to you, that It is very hard to have an open and honest discussion with you.".

Trying to defend someone who said that "Fitrah" is not in the Quran, and I gave you the Quranic verse where it is explicitly said, and the word there in the Quran is "Fitrah", you have put yourself in the tribalistic mode. "I will defend my tribe even if they are wrong". Since you spoke of honesty, I think you should be honest and just accept that this person who said fitrah is not mentioned in any verse of the Quran is simply wrong. Thats it.

Have a good day.

 

[firedragon]

I posted the meaning of Fithrah and offered the quote is not in opposition but a clarification, in fact very complimentary.

What Baha'u'llah offered just helps me embrace the Message of Islam with greater devotion.

That is where I will leave it, as what is the point of all this? Fruitless arguments indicating we are both wrong.

Regards Tony

The problem is Tony, I was having a conversation with you. When you try to defend others rather than engaging in your conversation, that is a whole other story. When you clarify something in this thread, that's all that is needed. I accept your clarification. But when other make absolutely bogus claims, and you are thinking you can defend them as persons, not the point, that's absolutely unnecessary.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can there be a "Messenger of God" without "a God"? Thats an oxymoron. I am not gonna engage in that logic IT.



Thats not Fitrah. What you said is not relevant.



I thought you are an ardent, dogmatic hadith believer who justifies hadith even if they are weak when convenient. Strange now you ignore hadith and go to the Qur'an. If you think that helps you, its your prerogative. Anyway, I will upload a screen shot of a verse FYI. Another thread, another day.

View attachment 55881

You don't accept Hadith, so, I told you the Quran. But If you have a Hadith stating people are born believing in God, I'll be happy to see it.


As regard to the verse you refer, It depends how one interprets Quran 30:30


Here is another translation by Yosef Ali:


"So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not" 30:30

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem is Tony, I was having a conversation with you. When you try to defend others rather than engaging in your conversation, that is a whole other story. When you clarify something in this thread, that's all that is needed. I accept your clarification. But when other make absolutely bogus claims, and you are thinking you can defend them as persons, not the point, that's absolutely unnecessary.

I went back and read the quote in more detail.

I will offer an apology and say sorry as you are correct.

The quote I posted has given more meaning to what Valjean offered, it may not be what was being offered in that OP and only @Valjean could clarify that.

Regards Tony

 

[1213]

Hmm. Thats interesting. What kind of things go as told in the Bible?

For example, Jews were scattered and now are gathered back, as told in the Bible.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Also, this I think is a good example:

But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
2 Tim. 3:1-4

 

[firedragon]

You don't accept Hadith

Who told you that mate? Why do you make such claims? Are you trying your best to put people into a sect or some bracket for your benefit? These kind of cooking things up is useless.

As regard to the verse you refer, It depends how one interprets Quran 30:30

Lol. You first denied, and of course now you have to reinterpret it. There is no choice.

The verse says "Fitrah". and you said there is no fitrah in the Quran. So now you have to change the concept of Fitrah, you have no choice.

 

[firedragon]

For example, Jews were scattered and now are gathered back, as told in the Bible.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Also, this I think is a good example:

But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
2 Tim. 3:1-4

Alright 1213. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who told you that mate? Why do you make such claims? Are you trying your best to put people into a sect or some bracket for your benefit? These kind of cooking things up is useless.

Then you are not even clear about your beliefs. I don't know anymore...

Lol. You first denied, and of course now you have to reinterpret it. There is no choice.

The verse says "Fitrah". and you said there is no fitrah in the Quran. So now you have to change the concept of Fitrah, you have no choice.

I didn't say Fitrah is not in the Quran. I said, there is no such a thing that when someone is born, he believes in Allah naturally or according to Fitrah. I hope it is clear now Mate.

 

[firedragon]

Then you are not even clear about your beliefs. I don't know anymore...

There is no necessity of anyone being clear of anyones beliefs. That is ad hominem.

I didn't say Fitrah is not in the Quran. I said, there is no such a thing that when someone is born, he believes in Allah naturally or according to Fitrah. I hope it is clear now Mate.

Nice. So you are not interested in changing the definition of Fitrah anymore? You just made an oxymoron statement, mate. Read that again.

 

[Valjean]

Atheists are less in number, but are in my personal experience and opinion, more dogmatic, more evangelical, more missionary, and more religious, than the others. Dime a dozen, everywhere, all your words apply. So none of this is any argument.

Interesting. I see the reverse. Atheists have no common beliefs, so have nothing to evangelize about. Most of us go unrecognized. The only time my atheism ever comes up is here on RF, where the subject comes up on a regular basis.
Yes, if challenged or inquired about, we'll explain or defend atheism, and point out the logical and reasonable problems with theology -- but when do we ever do this, outside of discussions like this one?

We don't go to atheist 'religious' services on Sunday. We don't have atheist churches. We don't preach on street corners or on TV. We don't complain about a 'war on atheism'. We don't ask for deference, special privileges or tax breaks.
Atheism is quiet, unassuming, and usually covert.

 

[Link]

Kids know a lot of things they don't know how to explain. They know how language works early and learn it early, but they don't know what they know from another perspective. They know God and soul exists, they are just not as aware as to what they know, why, and what the reasons are.

 

[firedragon]

Interesting. I see the reverse. Atheists have no common beliefs, so have nothing to evangelize about.

But they do . A lot. More than theists. That is my personal understanding. Of course I dont claim that is true universally unlike you who made claims with no research findings.

But I honestly do think that atheists are more evangelical than evangelical Christians.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Kids know a lot of things they don't know how to explain. They know how language works early and learn it early, but they don't know what they know from another perspective. They know God and soul exists, they are just not as aware as to what they know, why, and what the reasons are.

So, with that statement I see you would support the quote given above that man is a mine, rich in gems, that education alone can reveal.

Regards Tony

 

[Valjean]

But they do . A lot. More than theists. That is my personal understanding. Of course I dont claim that is true universally unlike you who made claims with no research findings.

But I honestly do think that atheists are more evangelical than evangelical Christians.

How do you evangelize nothing; a non-belief?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you evangelize nothing; a non-belief?

By being on a religious forum and posting comments that there is no proof of God.

By posting a view that there is no proof of the Spirit of God.

The non belief is just that, a non belief.

The negation (no, non) precedes the affirmation (belief), but the affirmation is need to explain what is that one is expanding upon, or needed to have none of it.

Regards Tony