Why do you dislike Islam?

[idav]

Does that seem logical to you?

Islam believes the Tanach only as far as it can seem like a benefit for the movement. Ironically they have to believe the stories are true while claiming nobody has the story right , "until now"....

 

[Mohsen]

That is a lousy excuse. Are we truly expected to simply pretend not to see the strong correlation between Islaamic inspiration, made explicit to various degrees by at least a few dozen governments and well over a millenium of history, and the terrible condition of their communities

That's an easy thing to say considering the Middle East has had all of its seats of power usurped by the imperial sword over a century ago isn't it? You won't find many Muslims shouting praises for the house of Saud, yet when the likes of Qaddafi were trying to bring free water to African nations - what did the imperial West do?

that the intent, one could legitimally ask whether there is a point in even learning about Islaam, since it seems doomed to be destructive when it is actually pursued

I laughed. This is wholly dependent on who is doing the "pursuing" is it not? in the case of Qaddafi, he was Islamically Inspired to do right by the Africans, and he cared not if they were Muslim, Jew, Christian etc - he just wanted them to have access to water, as water is an human right, well it sure used to be until the food and beverages giant, Nestle took that away from us. And so, when you claim "pursuit" - all I recollect is how the West targetted and pursued Qaddafi to kill him, poor sod!

 

[Mohsen]

It's a pretty standard tactic that I've seen employed on countless occasions. The irony of not accepting the numbers is both sad and amusing at the same time. With @Mohsen reassuring us it is all just drivel how could anyone in their right might think that such a prestigious and unbiased group such as PEW be even remotely accurate?

@Mohsen Numbers don't lie but people have a tendency to avoid the truth when it does not sync with the foibles of their understanding.

It's strange how you would accept PEW stats when they seem to push what you want pushing but not when they claim Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or that 4 times as many women convert to Islam than men, etc.

Now, can I have my spoon back? It needs cleaning before I administer the next 5ml dose

 

[Epic Beard Man]

First, if you're going to ask for criticisms, and you want to answer them. Fine.

But I don't think you're winning any points by engaging in whatabotism with Judaism and Christianity. . . . Obviously, they have histories of violence too, but you don't do yourself any favors by ignoring the doctrines of your own faith that lead there, or by saying that others are "just as bad." Address the violence directly.



This is a claim you're going to have to demonstrate with a little evidence first. I happen to think The theology and doctrine discourages these ideas.

My Big Beef with Islam:

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

This link send you to a Pew Research poll that finds the overwhelming majority of Muslims in many countries think that there is exactly ONE interpretation of the Quran, and that Sharia law is a great idea and should be implemented.

It lays out how many Muslims are in favor of Stone Age punishments for crimes, such a theft. It also lays out how many Muslims prefer people should be punished, Stine Age style, for things that are NOT crimes, such as adultery and leaving the faith.

Based on the survey results, these are not minority viewpoints in many Muslim countries. They even found a correlation between the extremety of these views and how often they prayed. . . Loosely suggesting that the more adherence you have, the more you believe that the Quran should be the law of the land, and those aubjugated by it should be stoned to death for things that are not even crimes in secular societies.

If the majority of Muslims believe these things, and based on the survey it's overwhelming that the do, then Islam itself has some very backward, cultural problems that need to be addressed globally before you can claim a "resurgence of science and philosophy."

My purpose of this thread is to not win anything but to address the personal issues that people have concerning Islam, and my "whatboutism" was addressing another posters view concerning fanaticism because fanaticism exists in all three Abrahamic faiths and Islam is not unique. With respect to your post abut Shari'ah Law you're not very clever and in fact that is a typical response from those ignorant of Islam and Shari'ah Law. Before we can go further I suggest you read the following link:

Shariah And Fiqh. Do You Know The Difference?

Anny further questioning and cherrypicking on the link will not be addressed. I suggest you also read a brief understanding what fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) means in conjunction with Shar'ah Law. You'll see that some schools of thought like the Ismaili School of thought and Maliki School of thought differ on certain issues concerning Shar'ah Law and how certain punishments are carried out. You'll find Shari'ah Law is more complex than you think.

If you want a simpler understanding of fiqh go here:Fiqh - Wikipedia

There is a reason Shari'ah Law is an elective study at UCLA for law students. Sheesh how typical.

 

[YmirGF]

It's strange how you would accept PEW stats when they seem to push what you want pushing but not when they claim Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or that 4 times as many women convert to Islam than men, etc.

Now, can I have my spoon back? It needs cleaning before I administer the next 5ml dose

Nice canard you got goin' there. Enjoy your morning hit.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I specifically mentioned in my first post that Marxism has the same problem (Putin is ex KGB). You are making my point.

I'm not making any point. I as a United States citizen cannot comment on the ethics of other governmental laws. Whatever laws they have those are their laws.

 

[YmirGF]

My purpose of this thread is to not win anything but to address the personal issues that people have concerning Islam, and my "whatboutism" was addressing another posters view concerning fanaticism because fanaticism exists in all three Abrahamic faiths and Islam is not unique. With respect to your post abut Shari'ah Law you're not very clever and in fact that is a typical response from those ignorant of Islam and Shari'ah Law. Before we can go further I suggest you read the following link:

Shariah And Fiqh. Do You Know The Difference?

Anny further questioning and cherrypicking on the link will not be addressed. I suggest you also read a brief understanding what fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) means in conjunction with Shar'ah Law. You'll see that some schools of thought like the Ismaili School of thought and Maliki School of thought differ on certain issues concerning Shar'ah Law and how certain punishments are carried out. You'll find Shari'ah Law is more complex than you think.

If you want a simpler understanding of fiqh go here:Fiqh - Wikipedia

There is a reason Shari'ah Law is an elective study at UCLA for law students. Sheesh how typical.

I do agree. Hysteria over Shari'ah is a teensy bit overblown, imho.

 

[Mohsen]

Nice canard you got goin' there. Enjoy your morning hit.

is willful ignorance really your thing? I think not.

peace

 

[sayak83]

It's strange how you would accept PEW stats when they seem to push what you want pushing but not when they claim Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or that 4 times as many women convert to Islam than men, etc.

Now, can I have my spoon back? It needs cleaning before I administer the next 5ml dose

Do you accept the stats that I presented from Pew?

It clearly says at the top that it interviews Muslims. Here is the link

Chapter 6: Interfaith Relations

In 22 countries outside sub-Saharan Africa, the survey asked Muslims how comfortable they would be with the idea of their son or daughter marrying a Christian. Overall, relatively few Muslims find the idea of inter-marriage acceptable.

Elsewhere in Southern and Eastern Europe, as well as in Central Asia, fewer than four-in-ten Muslims say they would be comfortable with either a son or daughter marrying outside the faith. After Albania and Russia, acceptance of interfaith marriage is greatest in Kazakhstan (36% are comfortable with a son marrying a Christian, 32% with a daughter doing the same), and lowest in Azerbaijan (8% son, 3% daughter).

In the other regions surveyed, three-in-ten or fewer Muslims say they would be comfortable with a son marrying a Christian (or Buddhist, in the case of Thailand), with single-digit acceptance in Pakistan (9%) and Indonesia (6%). Almost no Muslims surveyed in Egypt and Jordan would be comfortable with an interfaith marriage for their daughter. Elsewhere, fewer than one-in-four Muslims would be comfortable with their daughter marrying a Christian.

In the countries surveyed in Middle East and North Africa, Muslims consistently express greater acceptance of interfaith marriage for sons than daughters. Muslims in Egypt and Tunisia, for example, are 17 percentage points more comfortable with a son entering into an interfaith marriage than a daughter doing the same. Among the other countries surveyed in the region, attitudes differ in the same direction by nine to 12 percentage points.


Also, do you acknowledge that Muslim men and women have the right to freely choose spouses from other religions without requiring conversion given that Quran forbids it? Please answer.

 

[sayak83]

I'm not making any point. I as a United States citizen cannot comment on the ethics of other governmental laws. Whatever laws they have those are their laws.

Well, I explained my reasons. You asked after all.

 

[YmirGF]

is willful ignorance really your thing? I think not.

peace

I didn't think you would stoop to argumentum ad hominem quite so quickly. I'm so disappointed.

 

[Mohsen]

Do you accept the stats that I presented from Pew?

It clearly says at the top that it interviews Muslims. Here is the link

Chapter 6: Interfaith Relations

In 22 countries outside sub-Saharan Africa, the survey asked Muslims how comfortable they would be with the idea of their son or daughter marrying a Christian. Overall, relatively few Muslims find the idea of inter-marriage acceptable.

Elsewhere in Southern and Eastern Europe, as well as in Central Asia, fewer than four-in-ten Muslims say they would be comfortable with either a son or daughter marrying outside the faith. After Albania and Russia, acceptance of interfaith marriage is greatest in Kazakhstan (36% are comfortable with a son marrying a Christian, 32% with a daughter doing the same), and lowest in Azerbaijan (8% son, 3% daughter).

In the other regions surveyed, three-in-ten or fewer Muslims say they would be comfortable with a son marrying a Christian (or Buddhist, in the case of Thailand), with single-digit acceptance in Pakistan (9%) and Indonesia (6%). Almost no Muslims surveyed in Egypt and Jordan would be comfortable with an interfaith marriage for their daughter. Elsewhere, fewer than one-in-four Muslims would be comfortable with their daughter marrying a Christian.

In the countries surveyed in Middle East and North Africa, Muslims consistently express greater acceptance of interfaith marriage for sons than daughters. Muslims in Egypt and Tunisia, for example, are 17 percentage points more comfortable with a son entering into an interfaith marriage than a daughter doing the same. Among the other countries surveyed in the region, attitudes differ in the same direction by nine to 12 percentage points.


Also, do you acknowledge that Muslim men and women have the right to freely choose spouses from other religions without requiring conversion given that Quran forbids it? Please answer.

*yawn

Is tea time over already?

I'll address this since you have a real boner for it.

Why would any Muslim parent from Muslim majority nations want their sons or daughters to marry a Christian?

Why would any Christian parent from a Christian majority nation want their sons or daughters to marry a Muslim?

Are you feeling ok?

Or have your fundamental abilities to reason become lost in your pseudo science... oh wait, scientists are usually only concerned for "how" and very rarely do they ask "why". No point me asking why when the very nature of what I ask terrifies your linear abilities.

jangalang jangalang

I didn't think you would stoop to argumentum ad hominem quite so quickly. I'm so disappointed.

Oh come now, I said "i think not" - maybe my sense of humour is too wry for your taste

 

[sayak83]

*yawn

Is tea time over already?

I'll address this since you have a real boner for it.

Why would any Muslim parent from Muslim majority nations want their sons or daughters to marry a Christian?

Why would any Christian parent from a Christian majority nation want their sons or daughters to marry a Muslim?

Are you feeling ok?

Or have your fundamental abilities to reason become lost in your pseudo science... oh wait, scientists are usually only concerned for "how" and very rarely do they ask "why". No point me asking why when the very nature of what I ask terrifies your linear abilities.

jangalang jangalang



Oh come now, I said "i think not" - maybe my sense of humour is too wry for your taste

Why won't they? I would be happy if my children find a partner they love regardless of religion, ethnicity or caste. So in this question, I would be comfortable with such a choice. It's their life, their happiness... and their happiness is my happiness.

Also the question


Do you acknowledge the right of any Muslim man or woman to marry whomever they wish regardless of religion and without requiring the spouse to convert. Yes or No?

 

[Mohsen]

Why won't they? I would be happy if my children find a partner they love regardless of religion, ethnicity or caste. So in this question, I would be comfortable with such a choice. It's their life, their happiness... and their happiness is my happiness.

Also the question


Do you acknowledge the right of any Muslim man or woman to marry whomever they wish regardless of religion and without requiring the spouse to convert. Yes or No?

I'd be happy to marry a Buddhist at this rate... I'm still single. But I draw the line at atheists. Although, I do think I should keep my options open 42 and single is not a good thing. Does this answer your question?

Peace

 

[LuisDantas]

That's an easy thing to say considering the Middle East has had all of its seats of power usurped by the imperial sword over a century ago isn't it?

It is indeed, and you won't get any remorse from me for that, since after all so much of it is not only self-inflicted but actually encouraged by the Qur'an.

You won't find many Muslims shouting praises for the house of Saud, yet when the likes of Qaddafi were trying to bring free water to African nations - what did the imperial West do?

What did other Muslims?

Qaddafi, not to put too fine a point on it, was a dangerous and insane leader, so I don't know why you even want to bring him up.

For that matter, even your remark about Saudi Arabia ends up spotlighting that Islaam has failed itself even in its own motherland - and severely so at that. Is it because there are not enough Muslim there?

I laughed.

Your sense of humor far surpasses mine, then.

This is wholly dependent on who is doing the "pursuing" is it not?

That is the most significant factor, indeed, and the explanation for Islaam's survival to this day. People can and routinely transcend the limits that would be imposed by the Qur'an. In a very real sense, Islaam survives because it is protected by heretics conscious and otherwise that put themselves on the line everyday in order to protect its reputation at their own personal expense.

in the case of Qaddafi, he was Islamically Inspired to do right by the Africans, and he cared not if they were Muslim, Jew, Christian etc - he just wanted them to have access to water, as water is an human right, well it sure used to be until the food and beverages giant, Nestle took that away from us. And so, when you claim "pursuit" - all I recollect is how the West targetted and pursued Qaddafi to kill him, poor sod!

Nice narrative, comrade. Not a convincing one, though.

 

[Tumah]

Islam believes the Tanach only as far as it can seem like a benefit for the movement. Ironically they have to believe the stories are true while claiming nobody has the story right , "until now"....

Yeah, I understand that. But the argumentation could use a little more logic, I think. I mean, like all the other books of Tanach, the Book of Jeremiah was written by ... scribes. So who actually made the statement about the lying scribe? Other lying scribes? Does that mean Jeremiah never said it? It kind of seems like they're putting themselves into a hole with that type of argument, unless that could be properly hashed out with substantive reasoning.

I get the feeling someone was skimming through the book, saw the verse and said, "Aha! Got them!" without really thinking it through.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That is a lousy excuse. Are we truly expected to simply pretend not to see the strong correlation between Islaamic inspiration, made explicit to various degrees by at least a few dozen governments and well over a millenium of history, and the terrible condition of their communities?

Were that the intent, one could legitimally ask whether there is a point in even learning about Islaam, since it seems doomed to be destructive when it is actually pursued.

It is really not a lousy excuse because you have to prove that these governments are actually basing their laws off Shari'ah Law. Again the burden of proof is on you that these governments are basing their laws strictly on Shar'ah Law and then you'd have to go further and demonstrate to which school of thought are they basing their laws or interpretation of Shari'ah Law on as in what school of thought. All Muslim countries are not all equally dominated by using Islamic Law, as you can see Malaysia for example:

"Islamic law refers to sharia law, and in Malaysia it is known and spelled as syariah. The court is known as the Syariah Court. Looking at the Malaysian legal system as a whole, sharia law plays a relatively small role in defining the laws on the country. It only applies to Muslims."

Law of Malaysia - Wikipedia

As you can see certain laws and the implementation of these laws are complex and diverse depending on the government.

 

[LuisDantas]

I did find your post funny considering I had posted this on the previous page,

I considered replying to that claim of yours. But it is such a tired old claim, and so unconvincing once one looks at the evidence, that I did not feel it worth the effort.

 

[sayak83]

I'd be happy to marry a Buddhist at this rate... I'm still single. But I draw the line at atheists. Although, I do think I should keep my options open 42 and single is not a good thing. Does this answer your question?

Peace

Partially. I will simply note that this freedom of choosing your spouse from whatever religion is socially repressed on a lot of Muslim majority countries. You started this discussion with a you tube video about interfaith marriage, remember?
Anyways I have provided evidence showing a lot of Muslim majority countries have extremely low freedoms for their citizens while UK has far higher freedom index with comparable safety.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I do agree. Hysteria over Shari'ah is a teensy bit overblown, imho.

It is and the funny part is Shari'ah Law only applies to Muslims, not Christians, nor Jews, nor anyone else. But because of the media and the fear based on the fanaticism of the late Osama Bin Laden and his ilk, Christian conservatives have spoon fed the public into thinking Muslims will rule the world and apply Shari'ah to everyone. Like I told another poster Shari'ah Law is a complex legal system that is not easily understood. Hell, I wouldn't even know where to begin. People don't understand that Shari'ah Law is not just about punishment but how one conducts themselves in public. I think Shari'ah Law tends to have some similarity with Halakha (Hebrew Law).