Why do you dislike Islam?

[Laika]

Lately I've been annoyed by some of the threads popping up using links regarding the behaviors of other Muslims from across the world or the behaviors of extremist Muslims who commit terrorism justifying their action using doctrine. So I'm curious and wanted to discuss/debate some of the personal issues some people have regarding Islam. I'm not talking about verses but what are your personal issues with Islam and why the continuing issues regarding Islam. As I've told one member, when I came back I started my disagreement with Islamic theology regarding pre-determinism. My disagreement was purely philosophical other than that I have no personal issues with Islam other than a few philosophical/theological concepts I just disagree with. So I wanted to create a thread and allow people to vent their frustrations out here and hopefully correct some errors. I also hope some RF Muslims join in and perhaps answer some issues whether theological or otherwise.

As far as personal issues go with Muslims on the forum, I don't have any. I can't remember seeing a Muslim ever lose their temper on the forums or being intolerant or bigoted towards others. (That includes gays who do make up a large portion of RF's membership. I can't remember a single comment from a Muslim that was anti-gay). I could be wrong here, but I can't remember anything coming from Muslims here that really made me think "these people are trouble" or could justify criticism of Muslims or thinking their behaviour represents Islam in a bad light.

I'm more concerned that Muslims are a silent minority on RF who do not publicly defend their own views in the main forums (or at least have very low visibility in most debates about Islam). I would be very happy to see a Muslim who can defend their own views in an informed and rational way. Quotes for the Qur'an would be welcome so they are in their appropriate context. If there was one Muslim on here who was a complete ******* but could defend their beliefs eloquently and cut through other people's crap, I would appreciate it. I'd be grateful as we typically don't get that much information coming from the other side.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It would be easier if Muslims didn't do so.
Tom

They don't. Or at least, when they are doing so, it's deliberate.
I don't think Sunni and Shia commonly assume of themselves that they're one. Quranists are entirely separate to both.

And that's just at a very chunky, unnuanced level.

 

[England my lionheart]

Theres so much not to like but I'll start with sad some things I do like,the al hambra mosque and Omar kayyam.

The hadiths for example give a horrifying picture of murder slavery,punishment for apostasy by stoning or burning,adultery too gets a severe punishment.

For the followers of sunnah the hadith is a precedent and although there are disagreements over sahee or unreliable hadith you can still see these things happening in the world of Islam today like child marriage and those horrific punishments above.

Now back in the time of muhammed this was pretty much the norm for people to marry children or burn and stone people to death but its not acceptable now and this shows Islam for what it is,oppressive.

After reading these hadith and Quran I don't get the love and peace part touted by Muslims,I do get a picture of conquest and war booty and land grabbing like that at medina,so these are just a few things I don't like.

 

[Tumah]

But I worry about the God they are praying to. is he real. Mohhammed.

...said the one who's god is a man.

 

[Tumah]

Some Jews even refer to God as Allah (Arab speaking Jews but this maybe be uncommon considering there is name common name HA'Shem).

They do (what remains of them anyway). And HaShem means "The Name", like alIll-h means "The G-d". Its just a reference, so as to avoid using one of the Names that we're not meant to use outside of prayer or study. There are others that we use as well, this one is just the more common one.

 

[Mohsen]

As far as personal issues go with Muslims on the forum, I don't have any. I can't remember seeing a Muslim ever lose their temper on the forums or being intolerant or bigoted towards others. (That includes gays who do make up a large portion of RF's membership. I can't remember a single comment from a Muslim that was anti-gay).

Peace be with you Laika, your response to this thread has warmed me to you. The irony you present isn't lost on me. Those who speak against Islam are the ones doing all the finger pointing here on RF. Meanwhile we Muslims, the silent minority, are rolling eyeballs. Turbo eyerolls.

As for Muslims with SSA (same sex attraction), A Muslim youtube channel didn't see a problem with filming an entire series with a Muslim man who has same sex attraction - of course the man himself is chaste. Here is one segment, of Paul (who has SSA) talking with Hussain. Both are Muslim. Filmed at the prestigious Regents Park Mosque:

Very calm, rational conversation. Quite endearing actually.

I could be wrong here, but I can't remember anything coming from Muslims here that really made me think "these people are trouble" or could justify criticism of Muslims or thinking their behaviour represents Islam in a bad light.

It's funny. When the very same posters who have an issue with Moozlums, wonder why the medical establishments are literally packed with Muslim Doctors, Physicians and Nurses etc. They can't work it out? Now you know why I stay silent. There is no reasoning with the "unreasonable" types. Just read through this thread. You'd think, after the number of years Muslims have posted rebuttals to commonly held misconceptions here on RF, there would be a change of wind... but no. Can't reason with them. They've shut their ears and blabbered their tongues ignorantly believing their islamophobic narrative is the only one which sticks.

I'm more concerned that Muslims are a silent minority on RF who do not publicly defend their own views in the main forums (or at least have very low visibility in most debates about Islam).

I certainly am not here for that. If any of these members truly wanted to learn about Islam, they'd do so. But all they seem to do is feed their bias against it.

I would be very happy to see a Muslim who can defend their own views in an informed and rational way. Quotes for the Qur'an would be welcome so they are in their appropriate context. If there was one Muslim on here who was a complete ******* but could defend their beliefs eloquently and cut through other people's crap, I would appreciate it. I'd be grateful as we typically don't get that much information coming from the other side.

Here is one quote:

The Qur'an: 2nd Chapter, Al Baqarah (The Cow) [Heffer]

6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

Which is why it is pointless attempting to reason with the unreasonable types

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

Sad as this is, it is what it is - but the non believers should't care about some "torment" they do not believe in. This is, after all, not their belief. So they have no right to cry about it.

8. And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.

9. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

Many who are in for a penny and out for a pound. Including scholars for the dollars. God alone knows who is a true believer and who is not

10. In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.

Of the hypocrites and those whom are clear in disbelief, are you not reminded of any members on this forum ??? such as those who would feed each others bias to speak so vehemently opposed to Islam???

11. And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."

Ah, bingo... today we have the likes of Trump, and others who came before him - from the America's and Europe - these leaders who supposedly speak for their respective nations but in reality only speak for the powerhouses they represent. Did the Million Man March in London stop Tony Blair from invading Iraq on the pretense of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" ??? Will similar narratives stop Trump? Did they stop the two Bush's? I can carry on, and on.

12. Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.

Clear as day to me, and to you! Unless you too "perceive it not"

Peace!

 

[Sunstone]

I don't so much dislike Islam as I think it needs to go through a reformative process such as Christianity has been doing ever since the European Enlightenment.

 

[Mohsen]

I don't so much dislike Islam as I think it needs to go through a reformative process such as Christianity has been doing ever since the European Enlightenment.

Some groups of Muslims (sects) may need reforming, Islam does not! Christianity and Islam are not comparable in the way you seem to think. Christianity has many competing theologies, and this is something which Islam has never suffered!

Peace

 

[Dawnofhope]

Lately I've been annoyed by some of the threads popping up using links regarding the behaviors of other Muslims from across the world or the behaviors of extremist Muslims who commit terrorism justifying their action using doctrine. So I'm curious and wanted to discuss/debate some of the personal issues some people have regarding Islam. I'm not talking about verses but what are your personal issues with Islam and why the continuing issues regarding Islam. As I've told one member, when I came back I started my disagreement with Islamic theology regarding pre-determinism. My disagreement was purely philosophical other than that I have no personal issues with Islam other than a few philosophical/theological concepts I just disagree with. So I wanted to create a thread and allow people to vent their frustrations out here and hopefully correct some errors. I also hope some RF Muslims join in and perhaps answer some issues whether theological or otherwise.

This is great to have someone such as yourself going into bat for the Muslims, looking at the positives, and dispel some of the myths and prejudices. I have often seen whenever a Baha'i speaks positively about some aspect of Islam, we are accused of being a sect of Islam sucking up to the Muslims. Ce la vie.

What's good about Islam? From my very Baha'i perspective Islam is a faith that belives in the same God as the Christians, Jews, and Baha'is. Muhammad managed to unite a disparate group of Arab tribes and lift their moral standards. As a religion they promote many of the same values or positive virtues of the other religions such as love, peace, and justice. Their Faith has proved remarkably resilient throughout time and adapted to many cultures. I work in health as a medcial doctor and have come across many colleagues who are Muslims and wonderful people.

What don't I like about Islam? In some parts of the Islamic world there is religious intolerance and fanaticism, inequality between men and women, and a struggle to adapt to the modern world.

 

[Sunstone]

Some groups of Muslims (sects) may need reforming, Islam does not! Christianity and Islam are not comparable in the way you seem to think. Christianity has many competing theologies, and this is something which Islam has never suffered!

Peace

I'll stick with my opinion, you stick with yours.

 

[Mohsen]

What don't I like about Islam? In some parts of the Islamic world there is religious intolerance and fanaticism, inequality between men and women, and a struggle to adapt to the modern world.

I can say the same for the UK, which is secular! This modern world so many speak of, is not a sign of "progress". Unless you think progress only means technological and medical advancement. See, the measure of any empire is in its' ability to maintain its' moral anchoring - and this "modern western civilisation" has already kissed goodbye to that. And as Historian Cormac O'Brien among other notables have already surmised - when an empire's moral standard drops, the empire's days are numbered. So what ever adapting you think needs to be done, needs to be done by those who live in the West, because moral standards here in the west are the lowest they've ever been!

I'll stick with my opinion, you stick with yours.

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Say, “O disbelievers.

2. I do not worship what you worship.

3. Nor do you worship what I worship.

4. Nor do I serve what you serve.

5. Nor do you serve what I serve.

6. You have your way, and I have my way.”

Qur'an 109. Al Kaafirun (The Disbelievers)

 

[Notanumber]

I tend to think I'm a little bit more knowledgeable than you when it comes to Islam but you can disagree but if you want to discuss/debate on what Islam means this is the thread for it. Because your presentation is quite wrong. Islam in its extreme form is about a complete devotion to God.

What baffles me about Islam is the way its followers were and still are taken in by this deception.

Surely modern educated people should be able to see that all gods but especially Allah were tools used by tyrants that wanted to control the thoughts and minds of their followers.

If you can convince your followers that it is great honour, which will be greatly rewarded in heaven, to die in battle you have an invincible army at your command.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can say the same for the UK, which is secular! This modern world so many speak of, is not a sign of "progress". Unless you think progress only means technological and medical advancement. See, the measure of any empire is in its' ability to maintain its' moral anchoring - and this "modern western civilisation" has already kissed goodbye to that. And as Historian Cormac O'Brien among other notables have already surmised - when an empire's moral standard drops, the empire's days are numbered. So what ever adapting you think needs to be done, needs to be done by those who live in the West, because moral standards here in the west are the lowest they've ever been!

If a Muslim lives according to the highest stardards of his Faith then only good can come of this. The problem is when some of your leaders don't follow that standard and lead others astray.

It is true there is a moral crisis in the West. However I can't see Islam providing the remedy to this crisis, anymore than Christianity.

 

[Mohsen]

What baffles me about Islam is the way its followers were and still are taken in by this deception.

Hmmm, sounds interesting for a so called liberal moderate "infidel" to have issues with what others believe!!! Why would you care? People have a choice to believe or disbelieve in what they like - you should not worry about another's choice - just care for your own!

Surely modern educated people should be able to see that all gods but especially Allah were tools used by tyrants that wanted to control the thoughts and minds of their followers.

I'm a modern educated person. And I chose to believe in God, and His messengers and Prophets (peace be upon them all) because after careful study, I found the teachings to be beneficial and worthy of merit!

As a moderate infidel, you chase only that which appeals to you, without regard for anothers sensibilities evidently, and the proof is in the very post you made here - you seem to want to push your POV ignorantly on others, and using language like "deception" and "tools used by tyrants" without justifying your position, makes your position altogether weak.

If you can convince your followers that it is great honour, which will be greatly rewarded in heaven, to die in battle you have an invincible army at your command.

This calls for a Picard Facepalm.

 

[Mohsen]

If a Muslim lives according to the highest stardards of his Faith then only good can come of this. The problem is when some of your leaders don't follow that standard and lead others astray.

Muslim nations have far better security and freedom than the west - that is until - the West meddles in their national affairs. I can cite example after example throughout the course of modern history, since the Balfour Declaration was signed almost exactly 100 years ago now.

It is true there is a moral crisis in the West. However I can't see Islam providing the remedy to this crisis, anymore than Christianity.

That's because the West is not run by Muslims, or Christians - but secular leaders who couldn't care less what happened to the nations they govern.

Peace

 

[Father Heathen]

I dislike anything that discourages critical thought and encourages misogyny and homophobia.

 

[Mohsen]

Hell, I can only wish if someone mentioned my real name they would wish peace upon me. To me this is devotion.

When we greet each other with "As salaamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakaatuhu" in Arabic, that's exactly what we are doing

God bless, and peace be with you

 

[Mohsen]

I dislike anything that discourages critical thought and encourages misogyny and homophobia.

Then you shouldn't have a problem with Islam

Peace

 

[Sunstone]

When we greet each other with "As salaamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakaatuhu" in Arabic, that's exactly what we are doing

God bless, and peace be with you

Huh? That's a misquote. I never said what you are quoting me in post 57 as saying.

 

[Mohsen]

Huh? That's a misquote. I never said what you are quoting me as saying.

You're right!!! I was trying to quote the epic bearded man lol

Peace anyway

fixed, here:

Hell, I can only wish if someone mentioned my real name they would wish peace upon me. To me this is devotion.

I was trying to quote this!