Why do you dislike Islam?

[Ubon]

You have a religion that teaches its subjects islam will eventually do battle with the infidels.
They will be led by jesus of all people, become victorious and either destroy, convert or enslave us.
Why do i dislike that, because they are preaching we are all the enemy.

 

[LuisDantas]

Math, science etc? Come off it. Islam explicitly abandoned those in favour of ignorance and superstition. Muslim countries make very little contribution in those (or any other) fields.

No, not explicitly. It would perhaps be better if it were explicitly.

 

[sayak83]

@sayak83

Egypt, Morocco and Gambia have respect for their minority groups and allow them to exist on a fairly even basis when compared to my experience as a Muslim living in the UK. For example, for me to get a job, I suffer a type of closet islamophobia.

Take for example, how the beeb investigated this and found that Muslims are twice as likely to be sidelined for interiews when compared with any other group in the UK.

In Egypt, that's never the case, and people of other minorities get jobs based on their ability to fulfil the role - and not their religious preference or lack thereof.

In Morocco it's the same.

In Gambia, the same.

In the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - they actually prefer ex-pats to Muslims, unless the ex-pat is a Muslim.

Regarding your point about freedom. Defining freedom is a two way street. On the one hand you have the western libertarian brand of it, which allows your mother to dress like a garden tool if she so wishes - yet find it unsafe to walk the streets at night. On the other hand, you have Muslim nations in which a Jewellery Store Owner can leave his wares on display, and leave his shop without locking it while he goes to the mosque down the street for evening prayers - and return to his shop to find everything as it should be.

I argue, safety should never be compromised for the sake of freedom and the Modern West has failed to provide that level of safety as a social norm where I live.

So, if you were to sponsor the West's version of what "freedom" is, then I would have to s****** and jest that you are a libertarian who doesn't have a clue what they are defending and ranting about.

Now, for your final point. The universal declaration of Human rights. I guess the Prophet pbuh last sermon was lost on you there too. Or the fact that Cyrus in the 6th century BCE, was the first to develop such, and he was no "westerner". This idea of "Universal Human Rights" is not an alien concept in the middle east - Muslims are well aware of it - it is the Modern West which treats it like an anomaly, because it is! The Universal Humans Rights are a novelty for the West, the West thinks it has the monopoly on it - truth is - the West is only just catching up to the equitable nature of the Middle East in this, the 20th Century. And that, while thinking it (the West) is still "imperially majestic". Can't have your cake and eat it my dear!

peace

Please provide statistics showing that minorities in Egypt face less discrimination in job and society than in UK.
I certainly prefer freedom to security. And what security can there be in non-democratic dictatorships and monarchies where the state can take away whatever one has without compunction? (Saudi Arabia and Egypt).

Consider the report I mentioned. Here is how the scores were calculated for each country.

Scores – A country or territory is awarded 0 to 4 points for each of 10 political rights indicators and 15 civil liberties indicators, which take the form of questions; a score of 0 represents the smallest degree of freedom and 4 the greatest degree of freedom. The political rights questions are grouped into three subcategories: Electoral Process (3 questions), Political Pluralism and Participation (4), and Functioning of Government (3). The civil liberties questions are grouped into four subcategories: Freedom of Expression and Belief (4 questions), Associational and Organizational Rights (3), Rule of Law (4), and Personal Autonomy and Individual Rights (4).

Aggregate score is such that 100 is most free and 0 is least free.

Then, based on these we have

Score for freedom


North Korea 3/100 (as reference for most non free state)
New Zealand 98/100 (as reference for very very free state)

Then we have,
Saudi Arabia 10/100
Gambia 20/100
Egypt 26/100
Morocco 41/100

Compared to

UK 95/100
USA 89/100

Thus the countries you mentioned are abysmal in providing basic political and civic freedoms to their citizens.


The freedoms that they fail to provide are fundamental to most of the UN charter of human rights. You are free to look at the questions and decide which ones are not vital in your opinion
| Freedom House

Regarding security, a good estimate can be had based on homicide rate per million people.

Here we may compare

Japan with 4 per million. (very good)
and Honduras 900 per million (horrible)

Then we get
UK 11.7 per million
Saudi Arabia 10.23 per million


So... what's so insecure in UK?
All countries compared for Crime > Violent crime > Murder rate per million people

And yes, like most folks I consider delivering freedom to be far far more fundamental than delivering safety. Economic freedom, religious freedom, freedom of speech and expression and conscience, freedom to determine how the state is governed by elections and hold the government accountable. When people are free, they will make mistakes and bad choices, but that bit of chaos and insecurity is a cheap price to pay to be free and to have rights of self determination.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

They are not treated well.
Liberty to freely express views on Islam. Liberty of Muslims to change their religion. Liberty to express liberal views on Islam. Liberty to protest conservative practices. Liberty to practice own religion free of harassment and persecution. Etc.

Well you have to realize it is not necessarily a "Muslim thng" but simply a governmental thing. I mean you can say the same about North Korea, China, Russia, and a few others. I am not free to drop trash in Malaysia. The problem of liberty regardless of the arena extends to other countries as well.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yeah but I'm not sure we are praying to the same God. As a Christian I believe I am praying to the one and only real God.

There is only one in Islam that is the author of the universe. Whether you consider their version of God as real or not is debatable. As I've mentioned before, Christian Arabs Christians like yourself, refer to God as Allah as well. Are they wrong too even though they are Christian yet refer to God as Allah?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Lately I've been annoyed by some of the threads popping up using links regarding the behaviors of other Muslims from across the world or the behaviors of extremist Muslims who commit terrorism justifying their action using doctrine. So I'm curious and wanted to discuss/debate some of the personal issues some people have regarding Islam. I'm not talking about verses but what are your personal issues with Islam and why the continuing issues regarding Islam. As I've told one member, when I came back I started my disagreement with Islamic theology regarding pre-determinism. My disagreement was purely philosophical other than that I have no personal issues with Islam other than a few philosophical/theological concepts I just disagree with. So I wanted to create a thread and allow people to vent their frustrations out here and hopefully correct some errors. I also hope some RF Muslims join in and perhaps answer some issues whether theological or otherwise.

I don't think the issues are just Islamic terrorism but what the Qu'ran commands regarding Jews, Christians and other unbelievers. Most people who comment on the Noble Qu'ran haven't sat down like I have to read it.

 

[sayak83]

Well you have to realize it is not necessarily a "Muslim thng" but simply a governmental thing. I mean you can say the same about North Korea, China, Russia, and a few others. I am not free to drop trash in Malaysia. The problem of liberty regardless of the arena extends to other countries as well.

I specifically mentioned in my first post that Marxism has the same problem (Putin is ex KGB). You are making my point.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Where I lived in Europe, I had predominantly Muslim neighbors. Some were polite and nice, others aloof, and others again not so nice. This is probably standard for neighbors.Some were from Somalia, Lebanon, maybe Afghanistan, South Eastern Europe, etc.. However, one common denominator was that they kept apart from living in the culture they moved into.

However, this large influx of Muslims (one of which threatened me, when I tried to be helpful, with, "In five years, this will be under Shariah law, and predominantly governed by Muslim" (Paraphrased)) does not integrate into the cultures that they moved into. They keep very much apart. Their marriage customs are kept under Muslim law, and they refuse to let the law of the land govern them. Their girls are not free to fall in love with the people of the land and marry outside Islam.

In some neighbor countries, they (seems to be the refugees) rape and do evil frequently. They seem to think that because the girls in Europe may wear what they think is a sexually revealing dress code not permitted girls in Muslim countries that they can just rape them and force themselves on these girls.

They are going to force Europe to forbid by law all religion, they are going to force something to happen so that Muslim in Europe will be at a growing disadvantage if they do not learn to live in the cultures they have invaded. Already, the sentiment is turning so that some countries are becoming very strict on whom they permit to enter their countries.

This is just a shot in the dark for me while reading this I can understand your wariness in the context you've put it in. I've met some Muslims from different countries that acted similar to what you've described. I once dated a beautiful Egyptian Arab woman long ago but when her family knew I was black American they threatened to disown her if she continued to see me. Unfortunately from these cultures that come here, a lot of it has to do with ethnic culture not necessarily Muslim culture. You see, there are a lot of Muslims that are Muslim by ethnic culture not necessarily religiously. You see, what I mean by Muslim by ethnic culture it is something you're born in to. I work with a Muslim nurse at my facility is is quite liberal in thought. She drinks liquor, has a snapchat, goes on plenty of fish to date etc. I think the Muslims you encounter that choose not to acclimate to society are probably first generation? I mean the same is here in the States as well. Some Somalians and Nigerians are very standoffish and I've encountered some that were hostile towards me. You see, a lot of Africans think black Americans are "white washed" so they tend to stay away from us (How ironic since their skin is as brown as mine but this has to do with African Diaspora than anything). I think these particular hardline cultures are doing this isolation thing because they fear of losing their culture if they acclimate to the society they move to. I would assume many of these families are simply opportunists. I don't think this is a Muslim thing cause trust me it's happening here in the States, just go to Washington D.C. or Dearborn Michigan, you'll see.

 

[Stanyon]

@sayak83

Egypt, Morocco and Gambia have respect for their minority groups and allow them to exist on a fairly even basis when compared to my experience as a Muslim living in the UK. For example, for me to get a job, I suffer a type of closet islamophobia.

Take for example, how the beeb investigated this and found that Muslims are twice as likely to be sidelined for interiews when compared with any other group in the UK.

In Egypt, that's never the case, and people of other minorities get jobs based on their ability to fulfil the role - and not their religious preference or lack thereof.

In Morocco it's the same.

In Gambia, the same.

In the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - they actually prefer ex-pats to Muslims, unless the ex-pat is a Muslim.

Regarding your point about freedom. Defining freedom is a two way street. On the one hand you have the western libertarian brand of it, which allows your mother to dress like a garden tool if she so wishes - yet find it unsafe to walk the streets at night. On the other hand, you have Muslim nations in which a Jewellery Store Owner can leave his wares on display, and leave his shop without locking it while he goes to the mosque down the street for evening prayers - and return to his shop to find everything as it should be.

I argue, safety should never be compromised for the sake of freedom and the Modern West has failed to provide that level of safety as a social norm where I live in the UK.

So, if you were to sponsor the West's version of what "freedom" is, then I would have to s****** and jest that you are a libertarian who doesn't have a clue what they are defending and ranting about.

Now, for your final point. The universal declaration of Human rights. I guess the Prophet pbuh last sermon was lost on you there too. Or the fact that Cyrus in the 6th century BCE, was the first to develop such, and he was no "westerner". This idea of "Universal Human Rights" is not an alien concept in the middle east - Muslims are well aware of it - it is the Modern West which treats it like an anomaly, because it is! The Universal Humans Rights are a novelty for the West, the West thinks it has the monopoly on it - truth is - the West is only just catching up to the equitable nature of the Middle East in this, the 20th Century. And that, while thinking it (the West) is still "imperially majestic". Can't have your cake and eat it my dear!

peace

Some equitable voices:

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I think one thing we need to be careful of is treating Islam as a homogeneous group. There are variances of interpretation which are substantial. We seem to refer to Islam in a singular fashion more often than we do with Christianity, for example.

Very good point and that is ultimately my viewpoint as well. Muslims are vary diverse, from culture, to fashion, to language etc. Muslims are not like the Japanese.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I suppose Islam in general wouldn't have had such a black eye had it not been for it's numerous worldwide acts of brutality, intolerance toward those who are not adherents, "honor" killings among family, religious executions like public beheadings, stoning, burning people alive in cages, and of course terrorism as it applies to things like the aforementioned.

It's hard for people to dissociate such behaviour as it applies to Islam and those who practice it.

While some have spoken out against these things, it still seems the majority of Islamic adherents come across as being less than genuine in proactively putting a stop to these kind of actions and events.

I think there is a limit, or a line in the sand whenever it comes to religions that have overstepped the bounds of humanity on the scale that it has.

While I've seen some progress and effort made in communications and education such as you are doing, it's going to be a very long time, if ever for the world to even start to trust Islam and its followers as long as these events and acts continue on. Not only on civilians and unaffiliated, but among the religions own brothers and sisters as well.

Abrahamic religions simply don't have a very good track record in a historical sense although there had been periods of stability. Maybe a good start would be to begin there, and address as to why these things happen.

Honor killings are not a part of Islam.

 

[Mohsen]

Please provide statistics showing that minorities in Egypt face less discrimination in job and society than in UK.
I certainly prefer freedom to security. And what security can there be in non-democratic dictatorships and monarchies where the state can take away whatever one has without compunction? (Saudi Arabia and Egypt).

Consider the report I mentioned. Here is how the scores were calculated for each country.

Scores – A country or territory is awarded 0 to 4 points for each of 10 political rights indicators and 15 civil liberties indicators, which take the form of questions; a score of 0 represents the smallest degree of freedom and 4 the greatest degree of freedom. The political rights questions are grouped into three subcategories: Electoral Process (3 questions), Political Pluralism and Participation (4), and Functioning of Government (3). The civil liberties questions are grouped into four subcategories: Freedom of Expression and Belief (4 questions), Associational and Organizational Rights (3), Rule of Law (4), and Personal Autonomy and Individual Rights (4).

Aggregate score is such that 100 is most free and 0 is least free.

Then, based on these we have

Score for freedom


North Korea 3/100 (as reference for most non free state)
New Zealand 98/100 (as reference for very very free state)

Then we have,
Saudi Arabia 10/100
Gambia 20/100
Egypt 26/100
Morocco 41/100

Compared to

UK 95/100
USA 89/100

Thus the countries you mentioned are abysmal in providing basic political and civic freedoms to their citizens.


The freedoms that they fail to provide are fundamental to most of the UN charter of human rights. You are free to look at the questions and decide which ones are not vital in your opinion
| Freedom House

Regarding security, a good estimate can be had based on homicide rate per million people.

Here we may compare

Japan with 4 per million. (very good)
and Honduras 900 per million (horrible)

Then we get
UK 11.7 per million
Saudi Arabia 10.23 per million


So... what's so insecure in UK?
All countries compared for Crime > Violent crime > Murder rate per million people

And yes, like most folks I consider delivering freedom to be far far more fundamental than delivering safety. Economic freedom, religious freedom, freedom of speech and expression and conscience, freedom to determine how the state is governed by elections and hold the government accountable. When people are free, they will make mistakes and bad choices, but that bit of chaos and insecurity is a cheap price to pay to be free and to have rights of self determination.

Did you just ignore the elephant in the room... twice?

sheesh.

 

[sayak83]

Did you just ignore the elephant in the room... twice?

sheesh.

What did I miss?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Data
Atheists face death in 13 countries, global discrimination: study

13 countries have death penalty for apostasy.

But this year’s more comprehensive study showed six more, bringing the full list to Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.


The report below analyzes the severity of blasphemy laws by country.

Report link

Respecting Rights? Measuring the World’s Blasphemy Laws

I think this provides good reason to conclude that a majoritarian Islamic society as they are today are in general incompatible with the classical liberal freedoms of religion, conscience, speech and pluralism. It's a situation like Marxism in the 20th century. While there were many enlightened Marxists in the Western world, where ever Marxist ideology became a majority, citizen's rights were severely compromised. Hence I feel obliged to oppose the growth of Islam until I am convinced that liberal Islam can actually hold its own against Islamist movements. The fate of the Arab spring and the backsliding of Turkey provides no justification for such optimism.

Well, these are governments not Islam. These are how these governments operate.

 

[Mohsen]

I don't think the issues are just Islamic terrorism but what the Qu'ran commands regarding Jews, Christians and other unbelievers. Most people who comment on the Noble Qu'ran haven't sat down like I have to read it.

Please do cite your verses! There is a context and anthropology I think you are missing in your linear reading of it. I'm interested in what you have to cite, as I have not just read it, but I study the Qur'an.

Peace

What did I miss?

You really have to ask? or are you just messing with me? Look, if you are serious, then I can't help you. Entertain your lop sided bias all you like. Some people are beyond hope evidently.

 

[sayak83]

This is just a shot in the dark for me while reading this I can understand your wariness in the context you've put it in. I've met some Muslims from different countries that acted similar to what you've described. I once dated a beautiful Egyptian Arab woman long ago but when her family knew I was black American they threatened to disown her if she continued to see me. Unfortunately from these cultures that come here, a lot of it has to do with ethnic culture not necessarily Muslim culture. You see, there are a lot of Muslims that are Muslim by ethnic culture not necessarily religiously. You see, what I mean by Muslim by ethnic culture it is something you're born in to. I work with a Muslim nurse at my facility is is quite liberal in thought. She drinks liquor, has a snapchat, goes on plenty of fish to date etc. I think the Muslims you encounter that choose not to acclimate to society are probably first generation? I mean the same is here in the States as well. Some Somalians and Nigerians are very standoffish and I've encountered some that were hostile towards me. You see, a lot of Africans think black Americans are "white washed" so they tend to stay away from us (How ironic since their skin is as brown as mine but this has to do with African Diaspora than anything). I think these particular hardline cultures are doing this isolation thing because they fear of losing their culture if they acclimate to the society they move to. I would assume many of these families are simply opportunists. I don't think this is a Muslim thing cause trust me it's happening here in the States, just go to Washington D.C. or Dearborn Michigan, you'll see.

In Quran there is prohibition against marrying non-Muslims.

Chapter 2

221Do not marry idolatresses until they believe: a believing slave
woman is certainly better than an idolatress, even though she may
please you. And do not give your women in marriage to idolaters
until they believe: a believing slave is certainly better than an idol-
ater, even though he may please you. Such people call [you] to the
Fire, while God calls [you] to the Garden and forgiveness by His
leave. He makes His messages clear to people, so that they may bear
them in mind.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

They do (what remains of them anyway). And HaShem means "The Name", like alIll-h means "The G-d". Its just a reference, so as to avoid using one of the Names that we're not meant to use outside of prayer or study. There are others that we use as well, this one is just the more common one.

Correct

 

[LuisDantas]

@Mohsen : I appreciate your sense of humor, but it is to no one's benefit that Islaam is such a hinder to knowledge and advancement.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is great to have someone such as yourself going into bat for the Muslims, looking at the positives, and dispel some of the myths and prejudices. I have often seen whenever a Baha'i speaks positively about some aspect of Islam, we are accused of being a sect of Islam sucking up to the Muslims. Ce la vie.

What's good about Islam? From my very Baha'i perspective Islam is a faith that belives in the same God as the Christians, Jews, and Baha'is. Muhammad managed to unite a disparate group of Arab tribes and lift their moral standards. As a religion they promote many of the same values or positive virtues of the other religions such as love, peace, and justice. Their Faith has proved remarkably resilient throughout time and adapted to many cultures. I work in health as a medcial doctor and have come across many colleagues who are Muslims and wonderful people.

What don't I like about Islam? In some parts of the Islamic world there is religious intolerance and fanaticism, inequality between men and women, and a struggle to adapt to the modern world.

Well yeah the Baha'i have had a hard time for sure. But yeah the fanaticism is bad all around.

 

[Mohsen]

In Quran there is prohibition against marrying non-Muslims.

Chapter 2

221Do not marry idolatresses until they believe: a believing slave
woman is certainly better than an idolatress, even though she may
please you. And do not give your women in marriage to idolaters
until they believe: a believing slave is certainly better than an idol-
ater, even though he may please you. Such people call [you] to the
Fire, while God calls [you] to the Garden and forgiveness by His
leave. He makes His messages clear to people, so that they may bear
them in mind.

Meanwhile in the so called democratic and free spirited West:

curb your enthusiasm, dahlin!