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Why Do You Reject Jesus?

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What is your reason for not accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior? The one who saves us all from eternal death—separation from God—according to the Holy Bible.
Like @The Hammer - I just don't get it. Why do I need a "lord" and "savior" exactly? Especially some dude who supposedly lived a few thousand years ago and has no earthly presence in the here and now? It just doesn't seem useful or compelling to me.

But perhaps more fundamentally, I'm not Christian. I don't feel like I need any other reason than that, honestly. The obvious answer to "why don't you accept this thing that isn't part or your culture or traditions" is "because it's not part of my culture or traditions." Why would anyone who isn't Christian believe these things? It's specifically a Christian thing, and I'm not one of those. Nor am I a religious syncretist who incorporates any Christian stuff into their religion.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Take a right at Albuquerque.
Never mind I googled it
  • Heaven: Most Orthodox Jews believe that people who follow God's laws will go to Heaven.
  • Sheol: A place of waiting where souls are cleansed and purified.
  • Gehinnom: A place of torment and punishment.
  • Olam ha-ba: The afterlife, which literally translates to "coming world" or "next world" in Hebrew. It's related to concepts of Gan Eden, or Paradise, and Gehinnom.
  • Judgment: Some Jews believe that they will be judged as soon as they die, while others believe that they will be judged by both God and the Messiah on the Day of Judgment. On this day, some Jews believe that everyone will be resurrected.
It’s cool most orthodox Jews, believe that they go to heaven. Hey, if you believe takin a right at Albuquerque is the catalyst that opens heavens veil, all the power to you and I sincerely mean that. You believe in heaven so that’s pretty big.
 
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Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Like @The Hammer - I just don't get it. Why do I need a "lord" and "savior" exactly? Especially some dude who supposedly lived a few thousand years ago and has no earthly presence in the here and now? It just doesn't seem useful or compelling to me.

But perhaps more fundamentally, I'm not Christian. I don't feel like I need any other reason than that, honestly. The obvious answer to "why don't you accept this thing that isn't part or your culture or traditions" is "because it's not part of my culture or traditions." Why would anyone who isn't Christian believe these things? It's specifically a Christian thing, and I'm not one of those. Nor am I a religious syncretist who incorporates any Christian stuff into their religion.
Yeah, you and the @The Hammer seem pretty hard-core in your convictions. Like I told somebody else on this thread, I’ll respectively leave you to it.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Jesus said the only way to God is through me. That sounds like a savior to me.

That raises the question whether as a teacher, Jesus has particular guidance to impart regarding how to live and how to be in order to bring God into focus in your life -or- is he just suggesting you take your hand off the wheel and let him steer your life for you? The first seem honorable to me the latter more like a recipe for self abnegation. Positive self transformation vs infantilization.

Right, you were taught those beliefs. That's why you find them so compelling. If you had grown up Muslim, you'd find those beliefs the most compelling. That's how indoctrination works.

Indoctrination doesn't explain everything and not all forms of indoctrination are negative. If indoctrination is only experienced as a blind push from behind as causal push toward certain behaviors theni indeed who wants to be indoctrinated? Yuck.

But if indoctrination acts on how you see the world and makes connections you value, then it is functioning correctly by drawing you to a greater understanding and relatedness to the world.

This is why I think it matters whether we see Jesus as a teacher or as an alternative to captaining our own agency.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
That raises the question whether as a teacher, Jesus has particular guidance to impart regarding how to live and how to be in order to bring God into focus in your life -or- is he just suggesting you take your hand off the wheel and let him steer your life for you? The first seem honorable to me the latter more like a recipe for self abnegation. Positive self transformation vs infantilization.



Indoctrination doesn't explain everything and not all forms of indoctrination are negative. If indoctrination is only experienced as a blind push from behind as causal push toward certain behaviors theni indeed who wants to be indoctrinated? Yuck.

But if indoctrination acts on how you see the world and makes connections you value, they it functioning correctly by drawing you to greater understanding and relatedness to the world.

This is why I think it matters whether we see Jesus as a teacher or as an alternative to captaining our own agency.
Indoctrination:

  1. the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
That's negative. Teaching should involve imparting knowledge in a way that helps the person understand it and not just accept it uncritically. For instance, when you're taught about multiplication, you learn how and why it works. You don't have to accept it just because a person or book said it.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Indoctrination:

  1. the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
That's negative. Teaching should involve imparting knowledge in a way that helps the person understand it and not just accept it uncritically. For instance, when you're taught about multiplication, you learn how and why it works. You don't have to accept it just because a person or book said it.

When it comes to specific facts and techniques as with multiplication it is very simple though the real teaching involves recognizing where it applies. But when you look at the kinds of truth religions and the humanities are concerned with, indoctrination amounts to a kind of template or filter for understanding interactions, a text or events. It may only be a kind of trainer wheels as for a bike where one is expected to eventually transcend the use of extra support. But the truths of what the world is, who we are and why we are here are not reducible to simple facts. Indoctrination involves being shown the ropes and critiquing various approaches .. unless one is taught very harshly that there is only one way and the cost of non compliance is catastrophic. So some kinds of indoctrination is harmful but some kind of indoctrination is needed to become fully human.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, you and the @The Hammer seem pretty hard-core in your convictions. Like I told somebody else on this thread, I’ll respectively leave you to it.
Live and let live is usually a good approach.

I dunno if I'd characterize my religion as hardcore as much as a matter that is simply settled. It's been nearly twenty years since I discovered contemporary Paganism and knew those were my people, so to speak. Once you figure out who you are and whose you are, that's that. You build from there and grow within your tradition to find your flourishing and joy. And while it's true my particular flavor of Pagan Druidry is very open to following the currents of inspiration wherever they may take you, I'm old enough that I know what I like, yeah? May you find a similar flow of inspiration and joy in your own religious traditions! :blush:
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
When it comes to specific facts and techniques as with multiplication it is very simple though the real teaching involves recognizing where it applies. But when you look at the kinds of truth religions and the humanities are concerned with, indoctrination amounts to a kind of template or filter for understanding interactions, a text or events. It may only be a kind of trainer wheels as for a bike where one is expected to eventually transcend the use of extra support. But the truths of what the world is, who we are and why we are here are not reducible to simple facts.
What the world is is reducible to simple facts. Why we are here is a philosophical question that implies a creator, and so automatically assumes a god already and isn't useful. Who we are is humans.

Philosophy approaches questions like this in a way that's not indoctrination. You can learn how different thinkers have addressed these things. Philosophy classes generally aren't indoctrination because they're not pushing one worldview on you without having you question it.
Indoctrination involves being shown the ropes and critiquing various approaches .. unless one is taught very harshly that there is only one way and the cost of non compliance is catastrophic. So some kinds of indoctrination is harmful but some kind of indoctrination is needed to become fully human.
Indoctrination does not involve being shown the ropes and critiquing various approaches. That's the whole point. That's education, rather than indoctrination.

Indoctrination is the second one, being taught that there is only one way and you need to accept it uncritically. That is harmful. No indoctrination is necessary to become fully human. "To become fully human" isn't even a helpful phrase, as it would need to be established and defined first.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
That raises the question whether as a teacher, Jesus has particular guidance to impart regarding how to live and how to be in order to bring God into focus in your life -or- is he just suggesting you take your hand off the wheel and let him steer your life for you? The first seem honorable to me the latter more like a recipe for self abnegation. Positive self transformation vs infantilization.



Indoctrination doesn't explain everything and not all forms of indoctrination are negative. If indoctrination is only experienced as a blind push from behind as causal push toward certain behaviors theni indeed who wants to be indoctrinated? Yuck.

But if indoctrination acts on how you see the world and makes connections you value, then it is functioning correctly by drawing you to a greater understanding and relatedness to the world.

This is why I think it matters whether we see Jesus as a teacher or as an alternative to captaining our own agency.
“I am the resurrection and the life.” – John 11:25
  • “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)
In Mark 13:32, Jesus had been teaching his disciples about his return and says, “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Luke records it this way, “You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” (Lk 12:40).

I think he’s more than that
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Live and let live is usually a good approach.

I dunno if I'd characterize my religion as hardcore as much as a matter that is simply settled. It's been nearly twenty years since I discovered contemporary Paganism and knew those were my people, so to speak. Once you figure out who you are and whose you are, that's that. You build from there and grow within your tradition to find your flourishing and joy. And while it's true my particular flavor of Pagan Druidry is very open to following the currents of inspiration wherever they may take you, I'm old enough that I know what I like, yeah? May you find a similar flow of inspiration and joy in your own religious traditions! :blush:
Thank you.
 

Eliana

Member
Seriously, I’d like to know.
In the short time I've been here I have seen enough of your posts to know you aren't serious, so I treat your questions likewise.
Never mind I googled it
Ah yes, the university of Google.

19b.jpg
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
In the short time I've been here I have seen enough of your posts to know you aren't serious, so I treat your questions likewise.

Ah yes, the university of Google.

View attachment 94332
Really? I’m sorry you feel that way because I am being sincere. I think the real reason you won’t converse with me is because of how I responded to your introduction thread when I said you don’t sound like a live and let live person after you listed all the people you can’t stand. Oh well, take care then.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can say that again, since Jesus never claimed to be lord or savior. That is only a Christian belief.
Imam Mahdi (a) is taught to be the light by which God saves the believers in Shiite hadiths. I would say the Shiite hadiths show Ahlulbayt (a) in the unseen and in the outward together with the Quran, save souls from perishing as Quran says after mentioning Ulul-Amr to be referred to "were it not for God's grace and mercy you would have followed Satan save a few".

The Satan and his forces will most probably defeat us if we don't take asylum in the leader of time and seek his help, as Quran says "who thinks God won't help him in this world, let them tie a rope to the sky and then cut it off....".

We can't make it to God without the helpers and guiding companions of the path.
 
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