Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

[Spirit of Light]

Sufism isn't a strongly doctrinaire religion. It's more a mystical quest for communion with God. Sufis seem more practical than strongly wedded to doctrine.

Yes, sufism is a mystical practice within Islam, and doctrines are not a huge part of it. So on this you are correct

 

[Segev Moran]

Why should someone have to prove to you that "their belief" is right for them. It is a personal belief in a religious faith they hold. Who are you to say they are wrong, or it is not logical to believe as they do, because YOU don't believe what they do.

Who are you to tell a faithful believer that their belief is wrong, because there is no "evidence" that YOU accept to be true?

It is not your belief/disbelief, but if the faithful believer has all the personal evidence that their belief is right for them.

Who are you to tell them it is not?
The believer has the proof they need personally to hold their faithful belief in what ever religious faith they follow. They do not have to prove it to anybody.

You can ask: why do you believe so or so, and what ever the answer you get that is why that person believe what they do. You do not have the right to say "your belief is wrong" just because you disagree. Accept that people believe and walk away.

And yes I know your attack will come...who cares anyway????

I Care.
A lot!
You should care also.
If someone next to me will beat his wife because his religious belief allows it. I will not be quiet about it.
If someone threatens my kid to go to hell because he is a sinner, I will be in deep conversations with that on so he can prove to me this (ridiculous) idea.
If someone is trying to convince others to believe something, I will expect a lot of proof to believe it myself.
Seriously, You should too!
Don't accept stories as truth until they are proven as such.
Don't allow abusing others because the ones being abused are forced to believe it is ok!

 

[blü 2]

No, it is a belief that apparently works for me.

Good luck as you swim out into the oceans of Uncertainty.

I hope you won't be insulted if I continue to think you're real.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I Care.
A lot!
You should care also.
If someone next to me will beat his wife because his religious belief allows it. I will not be quiet about it.
If someone threatens my kid to go to hell because he is a sinner, I will be in deep conversations with that on so he can prove to me this (ridiculous) idea.
If someone is trying to convince others to believe something, I will expect a lot of proof to believe it myself.
Seriously, You should too!
Don't accept stories as truth until they are proven as such.
Don't allow abusing others because the ones being abused are forced to believe it is ok!

The OP is about some of the RF discussion whette certain people has shown no respect at all toward believers here in RF. It is not about outside of RF.
So yes I agree about caring for other peoples safety since I believe in love and compassion for all beings.

 

[Truthseeker]

You do not have the right to say "your belief is wrong" just because you disagree. Accept that people believe and walk away.

Baha'is are not supposed to say to people that their belief is wrong, though they may think so. There are all sorts of beliefs that can be harmful though, we should recognize. But it does no good to point that out, usually. The person will not listen to you. You have to see how they see things, and start to work with them gently.

I'm one to talk, though. I don't think I have ever done that. I don't have the temperament to do that. I don't know whether I can help that or not. What I do is either leave it alone and say nothing or go at the person too hard and that person fights back.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Who are you to tell a faithful believer that their belief is wrong, because there is no "evidence" that YOU accept to be true?

Show one post telling any believers their beliefs are "wrong". I'm feeling generous tonight so 50 cents goes to the first post you show saying this.

Believers post their beliefs in open forums subject to "debate" should they post outside of DIRs.

If you see a poster telling a believer they are "wrong" within private conversations in private forums, you should report them.

Otherwise, if believers claim that their beliefs are true and supernatural in a debate forum, they must be prepared to defend those beliefs they claim as true

Otherwise, just stick to the DIRs where they will only be supplied with reinforcement of personal beliefs and can remain happy in their quiet and personal beliefs without challenge or question.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Why should someone have to prove to you that "their belief" is right for them. It is a personal belief in a religious faith they hold. Who are you to say they are wrong, or it is not logical to believe as they do, because YOU don't believe what they do.

Who are you to tell a faithful believer that their belief is wrong, because there is no "evidence" that YOU accept to be true?

It is not your belief/disbelief, but if the faithful believer has all the personal evidence that their belief is right for them.

Who are you to tell them it is not?
The believer has the proof they need personally to hold their faithful belief in what ever religious faith they follow. They do not have to prove it to anybody.

You can ask: why do you believe so or so, and what ever the answer you get that is why that person believe what they do. You do not have the right to say "your belief is wrong" just because you disagree. Accept that people believe and walk away.

And yes I know your attack will come...who cares anyway????

Although I believe every belief is precious and that there is not a good reason to fight against another about their differing beliefs, what I do have trouble accepting is when people dont care about what they believe. If I say I'm Catholic, and my whole contribution to Catholicism is going to church once a year with my family I have no idea what I believe or care to even discuss my beliefs with others are there grounds to even say I have a belief in something? It's true there is no use to say their wrong about their beliefs being Catholic, because they have no belief to begin with, which in my opinion, is extremely sad to see.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Good luck as you swim out into the oceans of Uncertainty.

I hope you won't be insulted if I continue to think you're real.

As long as you phrase it like that we agree.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Show one post telling any believers their beliefs are "wrong". I'm feeling generous tonight so 50 cents goes to the first post you show saying this.

Believers post their beliefs in open forums subject to "debate" should they post outside of DIRs.

If you see a poster telling a believer they are "wrong" within private conversations in private forums, you should report them.

Otherwise, if believers claim that their beliefs are true and supernatural in a debate forum, they must be prepared to defend those beliefs they claim as true

Otherwise, just stick to the DIRs where they will only be supplied with reinforcement of personal beliefs and can remain happy in their quiet and personal beliefs without challenge or question.

Is knowledge of God natural knowledge?

 

[CG Didymus]

Exactly. But they need physical objective evidence. Ask @Trailblazer how often she has heard that.

About every day..almost as if non-believers telling what a believer should believe

Do either of you believe that all religious sects or cults all teach the truth, or that some teach things that are false? Are some people's religious beliefs actually dangerous to others?

Within your own religion, do some people misinterpret things and need to be corrected and shown the true interpretation?

Between two different religions, that both use the Bible along with their own Scriptures, there is probably going to some disagreement on the meaning of some Bible verses. Is it wrong to point out to the other person why you think yours is correct and theirs is false?

Now let's say a person who believes the Bible is literally true gets in a conversation with a person that doesn't believe the Bible is literally true. The one person tells the other that God created the world in six days approximately 6000 years ago. Should that other person ask for proof, other than, "because the Bible says so"? And point out that there is scientific evidence that shows that the Earth is much, much older?

That literal Bible believer has a conversation with a person that doesn't even believe that the God of the Bible is real. That person asks the believer for proof, other than what the Bible says, that God is real. Is that okay?

Then, do some people have false beliefs? About religion or anything? Should they be told? Now the problem with some religious people, they do believe what their religion teaches is the truth. People with other religious beliefs, and people that don't believe in any religion and don't even believe in God, are believed to be wrong. They will make claims about their religion and the founder of their religion. They will present their religion as if it is completely and totally true. But it contradicts things that other religions believe. They both can't be right. Someone is going to be wrong. How do you know which one is wrong? We'd have to look at the evidence. What evidence do religious people have? Their Scriptures? Their feelings? They both have that. They each believe their Scriptures and their interpretations of those Scriptures.

So, all religious people have their beliefs about God and their religion. If they go around proclaiming those beliefs as the truth, what do they expect to give as evidence of those beliefs to a person that doesn't even believe in God?

But... back to religious beliefs. Did some religions, and do some still do, believe in false Gods? I think some did and some still do. If you do, why don't you believe in the Gods of those religions? How do you know they are wrong?

A few hundred years ago it was easier. If you saw a religious ritual where they were throwing people into a volcano or cutting their hearts out, I would hope you'd call that religious belief wrong. And say that no real God would want or expect that. But are some religious beliefs today still based on superstitions and things that can't be proven? If you agree, then should we expect those religions to prove why they do and think like they do. And if they can't prove it call those beliefs and practices wrong?

Of course, you might not agree. Yet, we still put a stop to some religious cults that carry things too far. But where is the line between harmless and harmful beliefs and practices? Like even a belief that God is going to destroy this world and create a new one keeps some people from caring about the environment and making changes to saving the planet. Are they right or wrong?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do either of you believe that all religious sects or cults all teach the truth, or that some teach things that are false? Are some people's religious beliefs actually dangerous to others?

Within your own religion, do some people misinterpret things and need to be corrected and shown the true interpretation?

Between two different religions, that both use the Bible along with their own Scriptures, there is probably going to some disagreement on the meaning of some Bible verses. Is it wrong to point out to the other person why you think yours is correct and theirs is false?

Now let's say a person who believes the Bible is literally true gets in a conversation with a person that doesn't believe the Bible is literally true. The one person tells the other that God created the world in six days approximately 6000 years ago. Should that other person ask for proof, other than, "because the Bible says so"? And point out that there is scientific evidence that shows that the Earth is much, much older?

That literal Bible believer has a conversation with a person that doesn't even believe that the God of the Bible is real. That person asks the believer for proof, other than what the Bible says, that God is real. Is that okay?

Then, do some people have false beliefs? About religion or anything? Should they be told? Now the problem with some religious people, they do believe what their religion teaches is the truth. People with other religious beliefs, and people that don't believe in any religion and don't even believe in God, are believed to be wrong. They will make claims about their religion and the founder of their religion. They will present their religion as if it is completely and totally true. But it contradicts things that other religions believe. They both can't be right. Someone is going to be wrong. How do you know which one is wrong? We'd have to look at the evidence. What evidence do religious people have? Their Scriptures? Their feelings? They both have that. They each believe their Scriptures and their interpretations of those Scriptures.

So, all religious people have their beliefs about God and their religion. If they go around proclaiming those beliefs as the truth, what do they expect to give as evidence of those beliefs to a person that doesn't even believe in God?

But... back to religious beliefs. Did some religions, and do some still do, believe in false Gods? I think some did and some still do. If you do, why don't you believe in the Gods of those religions? How do you know they are wrong?

A few hundred years ago it was easier. If you saw a religious ritual where they were throwing people into a volcano or cutting their hearts out, I would hope you'd call that religious belief wrong. And say that no real God would want or expect that. But are some religious beliefs today still based on superstitions and things that can't be proven? If you agree, then should we expect those religions to prove why they do and think like they do. And if they can't prove it call those beliefs and practices wrong?

Of course, you might not agree. Yet, we still put a stop to some religious cults that carry things too far. But where is the line between harmless and harmful beliefs and practices? Like even a belief that God is going to destroy this world and create a new one keeps some people from caring about the environment and making changes to saving the planet. Are they right or wrong?

Normally if I was to correct someone from a different belief than my own, I would have to know their scriptures very well, or be able to find a scripture qoute that telling what I want to ask about.

But I do not tell them "your beliefs are wrong" because I am no spiritual teacher. And I have many things I do not understand even within my own belief.

If I know a certain topic like OBE can harm if done wrong, I can find reference from the scriptures that the person follow to ask if they are doing it according to their teaching, as I sometimes do with Frank here in RF.

Other than that I try to not tell other what is right or wrong for their belief. But on thr street, I dont hesitate yo go between two who fight.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Good luck as you swim out into the oceans of Uncertainty.

I hope you won't be insulted if I continue to think you're real.

Seems to me we’re all afloat on those oceans; even or especially those who mistake the deck of the boat for bedrock.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The OP is about some of the RF discussion whette certain people has shown no respect at all toward believers here in RF. It is not about outside of RF.
So yes I agree about caring for other peoples safety since I believe in love and compassion for all beings.

I think this may be a cultural issue, to some extent. Many if not most of the contributors to this forum are Americans; and appears that parts of the USA are subject to a particularly strident, in-your-face form of evangelical Christianity. Which inevitably provokes a similarly strident response from some non believers (and perhaps, though perhaps less so, from followers of other faiths).

You and I are Europeans - though my government doesn’t seem to think so, and yours appears uncertain. Still, you get what I mean. Our experience of faith and belief has been formed in a secular, tolerant society. We have grown up tolerating the beliefs of others, even when they conflict with our own. I think that experience is alien to many Americans.

While the division we see in the US is replicated in many ways all across Europe, religion is seldom the dividing line; although right wing groups are quick to take up any opportunity to promote Islamophobia - and let us never forget who the Nazis demonised before all their other targets. So we are not immune, but we are not surrounded by religious fanatics actively advocating a theocracy. I’d be worried myself if that happened here.

 

[Segev Moran]

The OP is about some of the RF discussion whette certain people has shown no respect at all toward believers here in RF. It is not about outside of RF.
So yes I agree about caring for other peoples safety since I believe in love and compassion for all beings.

Great. as such, you should oppose to people who claim their religion supports the other way around.

 

[blü 2]

Seems to me we’re all afloat on those oceans; even or especially those who mistake the deck of the boat for bedrock.

Bedrock? There are no absolute statements, so the test is, does it work?

An area in which reasoned skeptical enquiry excels. But Ssh! Don't tell @mikkel_the_dane.

 

[Sheldon]

How do you know that your definition of delusion is correct?

Haven't we done this to death? Primary definitions are not "correct" they reflect what most people understand the word to mean. That's how reference tools like dictionaries are compiled. They don't exclude other meanings, they just reflect the most common usage.

 

[Sheldon]

The OP is about some of the RF discussion whette certain people has shown no respect at all toward believers here in RF. It is not about outside of RF.
So yes I agree about caring for other peoples safety since I believe in love and compassion for all beings.

You know this part of the forum is for general debate don't you? If anyone doesn't want their beliefs held up to critical scrutiny there are parts of the forum where only theists go.

Also demanding a belief is respected is absurd sorry. Should we respect the beliefs of every Christian organisation then? The KKK are a Christian organisation, how about IS should be respect their beliefs?

 

[Sheldon]

Seems to me we’re all afloat on those oceans; even or especially those who mistake the deck of the boat for bedrock.

You mean the one's who insist absolute truth has been revealed by a deity, and cannot be wrong?

 

[Spirit of Light]

You know this part of the forum is for general debate don't you? If anyone doesn't want their beliefs held up to critical scrutiny there are parts of the forum where only theists go.

Also demanding a belief is respected is absurd sorry. Should we respect the beliefs of every Christian organisation then? The KKK are a Christian organisation, how about IS should be respect their beliefs?

Why should I hide from discussion or even debate if its a normal debate where people respect each other and don't try to dictate what a believer should or should not believe? By saying, your belief is wrong because I can't see or find evidence for a God, than there is no need for discussion or debate.

Atheists dont dictate what I should believe or how to believe.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You know this part of the forum is for general debate don't you? If anyone doesn't want their beliefs held up to critical scrutiny there are parts of the forum where only theists go.

Also demanding a belief is respected is absurd sorry. Should we respect the beliefs of every Christian organisation then? The KKK are a Christian organisation, how about IS should be respect their beliefs?

You do know that this thread was moved, right? So originally it wasn't in debate.