Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

[mikkel_the_dane]

You mean the one's who insist absolute truth has been revealed by a deity, and cannot be wrong?

No, one who believes that she can know what objective reality is in itself.

 

[Sheldon]

Why should I hide from discussion or even debate

Straw man fallacy as I made no such claim. you were the one complaining you don't like your beliefs subjected to critical scrutiny.

if its a normal debate where people respect each other

Respecting the person and their right to believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes them happy I'm fine with, but you cannot demand the belief itself is respected, that's absurd. Do you respect the beliefs of all religious people, how about the KKK and IS? You seem to have dodged that point.

and don't try to dictate what a believer should or should not believe?

Firstly control what others believe. Secondly given the proselytising nature of monotheistic religions that is pretty hilarious. Lastly did you think a forum for general religious debate was the best place to have no one offer different beliefs?

By saying, your belief is wrong because I can't see or find evidence for a God, than there is no need for discussion or debate.

Ah, I see, so it's only theistic beliefs you want respected, the answer is still no. Also many atheists have made it clear they don't hold a belief there is no deity, they just don't accept religious claims for an extant deity. If you feel there is no need to discuss your beliefs with atheists then don't, no one is forced to respond to any posts after all. Though every has the right to freely express their belief, or lack thereof.

 

[Sheldon]

No, one who believes that she can know what objective reality is in itself.

What does "in itself mean? Are you saying some claims don't objectively reflect reality more than others? Also what has that to do with this?

Sheldon
You mean the one's who insist absolute truth has been revealed by a deity, and cannot be wrong?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
Respecting the person and their right to believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes them happy I'm fine with, but you cannot demand the belief itself is respected, that's absurd. ...

How do you know that? What is your objective evidence and it is an opinion of yours?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What does "in itself mean? Are you saying some claims don't objectively reflect reality more than others? Also what has that to do with this?

It came from here: Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

Well, you don't know the history of the concept of knowledge as far as I can tell. And that would require that you started reading some books. But that I can't ask that of you, so I won't. It is philosophy and about "das Ding an sich".

 

[Spirit of Light]

Straw man fallacy as I made no such claim. you were the one complaining you don't like your beliefs subjected to critical scrutiny.



Respecting the person and their right to believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes them happy I'm fine with, but you cannot demand the belief itself is respected, that's absurd. Do you respect the beliefs of all religious people, how about the KKK and IS? You seem to have dodged that point.



Firstly control what others believe. Secondly given the proselytising nature of monotheistic religions that is pretty hilarious. Lastly did you think a forum for general religious debate was the best place to have no one offer different beliefs?



Ah, I see, so it's only theistic beliefs you want respected, the answer is still no. Also many atheists have made it clear they don't hold a belief there is no deity, they just don't accept religious claims for an extant deity. If you feel there is no need to discuss your beliefs with atheists then don't, no one is forced to respond to any posts after all. Though every has the right to freely express their belief, or lack thereof.

You love to say straw man, non of what you speak about hold any value all you want is making critique because you dont belive, and when you do get an answer you deny it as false.

I call Bull crap

 

[Sheldon]

How do you know that? What is your objective evidence and it is an opinion of yours?

The evidence to support that opinion is in my post.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You love to say straw man, non of what you speak about hold any value all you want is making critique because you dont belive, and when you do get an answer you deny it as false.

I call Bull crap

In the end, fundamental beliefs about what the world really is, are so far in all cases nothing but beliefs. But some people including some non-religious people can't have that.

 

[Sheldon]

You love to say straw man,

theists love to use them.

non of what you speak about hold any value

That fallacy is called an ad hominem. Now that's the kid of disrespect we shouldn't indulge, people's beliefs are fair game, but you should try and respect the person.

all you want is making critique because you dont belive,

I'm sorry I'm not seeing your point?

and when you do get an answer you deny it as false.

Another straw man fallacy.

I call Bull crap

How often does it happen? It might be Tourette's.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The evidence to support that opinion is in my post.

No, you state some facts and then you did this:
Fact, therefore it is absurd. That observation is an old one and was noticed by a skeptic over 200 years ago.
People state facts and then they evaluate them as first person qualitive worth without evidence. It is how psychology works and you are quite normal in that sense. But that requires that you read up on it.

 

[Sheldon]

In the end, fundamental beliefs about what the world really is, are so far in all cases nothing but beliefs. But some people including some non-religious people can't have that.

Is that just a belief? Then it's no different to other beliefs? So you might as well be claiming you're Batman.

"Beliefs are just beliefs," deep. Come on even you must see what a facile tautology that is?

Are all beliefs fundamentally the same then, really? So that's your belief and no different to you claiming that you're really god and created everything for a laugh.

 

[Sheldon]

No, you state some facts and then you did this:
Fact, therefore it is absurd. That observation is an old one and was noticed by a skeptic over 200 years ago.
People state facts and then they evaluate them as first person qualitive worth without evidence. It is how psychology works and you are quite normal in that sense. But that requires that you read up on it.

So you think we should "respect" racist beliefs, and the pernicious beliefs of groups like the KKK or IS?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is that just a belief? Then it's no different to other beliefs? So you might as well be claiming you're Batman.

"Beliefs are just beliefs," deep. Come on even you must see what a facile tautology that is?

Are all beliefs fundamentally the same then, really? So that's your belief and no different to you claiming that you're really god and created everything for a laugh.

No, all beliefs are the same as beliefs and different for their results. That is sociology, but agan that requires that you read books.
Start reading up on the Western history of how we got to modern science in regards to knowledge and metaphysics. I am not your teacher or any of that. It is out there in the books as knowledge about knowledge.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So you think we should "respect" racist beliefs, and the pernicious beliefs of groups like the KKK or IS?

Well, that is morality, sociology and social work. But before we get to that we have to agree on knowledge and metaphysics. And we are not there yet.

 

[Sheldon]

No, all beliefs are the same as beliefs and different for their results. That is sociology, but agan that requires that you read books.
Start reading up on the Western history of how we got to modern science in regards to knowledge and metaphysics. I am not your teacher or any of that. It is out there in the books as knowledge about knowledge.

So you think we should respect the beliefs of Nazis, the Westborough Baptist church, the KKK, Is etc etc?

 

[RestlessSoul]

You mean the one's who insist absolute truth has been revealed by a deity, and cannot be wrong?

Of course. I am unconvinced by anyone who claims that their beliefs are founded on absolute certainty.

That said, I am as certain as it's possible to be, that God exists. Just don't ask me to explain what qualities God has, because that I do not claim to know.

I am, btw, cofortable with paradox and contradiction.

 

[KWED]

Why should someone have to prove to you that "their belief" is right for them.

They shouldn't, and they don't, under normal circumstances.

It is a personal belief in a religious faith they hold. Who are you to say they are wrong, or it is not logical to believe as they do, because YOU don't believe what they do.

Who are you to tell a faithful believer that their belief is wrong, because there is no "evidence" that YOU accept to be true?

It is not your belief/disbelief, but if the faithful believer has all the personal evidence that their belief is right for them.

Who are you to tell them it is not?
The believer has the proof they need personally to hold their faithful belief in what ever religious faith they follow. They do not have to prove it to anybody.

You can ask: why do you believe so or so, and what ever the answer you get that is why that person believe what they do. You do not have the right to say "your belief is wrong" just because you disagree. Accept that people believe and walk away.

And yes I know your attack will come...who cares anyway????

The issue arises when religionists come on forums such as this claim that their belief is true, or claim they have evidence that god exists, etc.
Then they are expected to back up those claims.
If you don't want your religious claims challenged, don't post them on religious debate forums. It really is that simple!
Hope this helped.

 

[Sheldon]

Well, that is morality, sociology and social work. But before we get to that we have to agree on knowledge and metaphysics. And we are not there yet.

So should we respect the beliefs of the KKK and IS? It's a yes no question, as you already challenged my opinion that it was absurd to claim all beliefs should be respected. Should I respect the belief that the world is flat?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course. I am unconvinced by anyone who claims that their beliefs are founded on absolute certainty.

That said, I am as certain as it's possible to be, that God exists. Just don't ask me to explain what qualities God has, because that I do not claim to know.

I am, btw, cofortable with paradox and contradiction.

Well, if you read up on logic, you will learn that the world can't be explained in strong positive logical terms. In other words you get paradox and contradiction.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

They shouldn't, and they don't, under normal circumstances.

The issue arises when religionists come on forums such as this claim that their belief is true, or claim they have evidence that god exists, etc.
Then they are expected to back up those claims.
If you don't want your religious claims challenged, don't post them on religious debate forums. It really is that simple!
Hope this helped.

The thread was moved from disciousion and the OP poster has never claimed truth or evidence.