Why do you say" you have to prove your personal faith and beliefs"

[Sheldon]

I don't know. I have subjective beliefs about it, which are without evidence, facts and all that.

Which are?

That is ethics, sociology and all more, but not natural science.

I didn't ask you what it was, I asked if you thought we should respect the beliefs of the KKK for example or IS? I could equally have asked if you respect the belief the earth is round, while simultaneously respecting the belief it is flat?

As I said, people I respect, their right to believe whatever they want, even the KKK, I respect, that is the price of freedom of speech and expression, but the belief itself has to be judged on it's own merits. the idea I should respect all beliefs is absurd, as I'd have to respect beliefs that contradict each other.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hmmm.

Why is it that when I defend my right to express how someone's beliefs / reasoning is irrational / illogical, you come running to team up with my conversation partner to tell me how it's a two way street and how one should be respectful etc, while you are doing exactly the same thing here?

Can you explain?

It’s a fair cop, I got dragged into some rather juvenile squabbling. Shouldn’t have let that happen tbh.

 

[Sheldon]

No,the tread is about being attacked for something you haven't done.

No it isn't, and the post I responded to, by the thread author, claimed we should respect all beliefs, an opinion by the way, but when I offered a contrary opinion and demonstrated objective evidence for why I held that opinion, you repudiated it, but now won't say whether you respect all beliefs or not?

But again, what you say is subjective.

As is that claim, and you claimed all beliefs were fundamentally the same.

We are in ethics, now. Not natural science. So do you want to do ethics and all the rest?

You're just obfuscating, do you or do you not respect all beliefs? If not then why challenge my claim if you share the opinion?

 

[Sheldon]

So are you claiming that there are a variety of gods and true religions?

What's ironic is we spent weeks with people insisting my atheism was a belief, now we're being told that all beliefs should be respected, while implying atheists should not subject theistic beliefs to critical scrutiny.

 

[Sheldon]

it is not a fact that the world is physical. That is a belief without evidence.

Yes it is a fact, and no it isn't without evidence. Unless we are about to delve into semantics about what physical means?

 

[Sheldon]

There's a difference between feeling offended by a comment and a comment being made with the purpose to offend.

I agree, it can sometimes be a subtle difference off course, but nonetheless I think you are correct. I'd also add that anyone has the right to be offended, and to offend. It is the price you pay for freedom of speech and expression, that you sometimes have to hear things you are offended by, and can say so. When everyone has to say the same thing, that's the time to worry.

If someone expresses a belief that isn't based on evidence and I then point out that it's irrational to believe things without evidence, then perhaps you may take offense.
Perhaps that is your problem and not mine.

2 out of 2, I concur.

 

[Sheldon]

If people say thinks like "I don't know if a god exists" or "A god may or may not exist", they are unlikely to find anyone asking them to prove it.
However, if they publicly claim that a god does exist, people are going to want some sort of evidence, especially if a person claims that there is evidence.
It's a pretty straightforward concept.

Especially since theism has a widespread influence on the world, and not all of it is innocuous.

 

[Sheldon]

I'm not questioning his thinking, I'm suggesting he question his fitness to judge.

Isn't what you just described debate? Aren't we in a debate forum? Also I'd imagine he has questioned his judgements, that's probably how he arrived at them. If his reasoning is flawed then this would seem to be the forum for someone to try and demonstrate that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wasn't judging him, I was questioning his line of reasoning.

So you want us to believe that "who are you to declare another man's thinking flawed?" wasn't a rhetorical question?

 

[CG Didymus]

They shouldn't, and they don't, under normal circumstances.

The issue arises when religionists come on forums such as this claim that their belief is true, or claim they have evidence that god exists, etc.
Then they are expected to back up those claims.
If you don't want your religious claims challenged, don't post them on religious debate forums. It really is that simple!
Hope this helped.

People from different religions do post things about what they believe is true here on debate forums. And I'm glad they do. And, because people in different religions believe things that contradict other religions, there's going to be some debate about which belief is true and which one is false. If a person claims that God is real, or that God sent a special messenger, I'm glad that Atheists respond to those posts and question the assumptions those religious people are making.

Are the religious people right? Are the Atheists right? Who knows? But I think it's worth debating about. And some people are going to be wrong sometimes. And sometimes it gets heated. Okay, people should back off a little. But is it only Atheists that go over the line? I don't think so. These debates would be lacking a lot without the input from Atheists.

 

[Jainarayan]

Brahman isn't God? See, God is not what you imagine God to be. Those who make this statement "Brahman isn't God" has created a caricature of God just to make a distinction. Semantics. Just another version of God.

Ive said it already so there is no point repeating it.

No, equating Brahman with God is a misunderstanding of Hindu philosophy and theology. God, as described by the west stemming from the Abrahamic concept has attributes Brahman doesn’t have… emotions, needs, desires. Brahman doesn’t talk, for example. Brahman isn’t prayed to, Brahman doesn’t answer prayers. What people are referring to saying Brahman is God is a concept called Saguna Brahman, Brahman with qualities. It’s a way for the human mind to grasp what it really can’t. No, not another version of God.

 

[Jainarayan]

You conceptualise Maya as "Ignorance"?

One definition of māyā, there are several, is ignorance, ignorance of reality.

 

[firedragon]

No, equating Brahman with God is a misunderstanding of Hindu philosophy and theology. God, as described by the west stemming from the Abrahamic concept has attributes Brahman doesn’t have… emotions, needs, desires. Brahman doesn’t talk, for example. Brahman isn’t prayed to, Brahman doesn’t answer prayers. What people are referring to saying Brahman is God is a concept called Saguna Brahman, Brahman with qualities. It’s a way for the human mind to grasp what it really can’t. No, not another version of God.

Why do you have to measure God by western or abrahamic "concepts"? God is God.

Every one knows the difference between Saguna and Nirguna brahman. God is just an English word. Just because its English and it carries some baggage does not mean brahman is not God.

So that means you are not a vedantist. You are an Advaita. Not Advaita Vedanta.

 

[firedragon]

One definition of māyā, there are several, is ignorance, ignorance of reality.

Sorry Jainarayan. I do not accept that. Maya is not ignorance. Maya is the blinkers. Because of the blinkers you have ignorance. Because of the illusion you have blindness or ignorance. Maya is the illusion.

 

[QuestioningMind]

As I said, asking good quality question to learn why the believer believe what they do. No problem at all.
But when it is framed to fully indicate "YOU are wrong, because I don't believe in a God" then the interaction between the believer and the non-believer has no value at all.

Well, I have never told anyone YOU are wrong, because I don't believe in a God. However, one of the quality questions I often ask is why would you believe such a significant claim without any verifiable evidence?

 

[QuestioningMind]

So are you questioning any beliefs as such, including one that acknowledge that is not a claim of evidence ,proof, truth and what not?

Please restate as a comprehensible question.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I write a new OP, in my mind i asking believers, waiting mostly for their answer and thoughts, that some few non-believers chose to come with a a attack or silly coment, that is their choice, does not seem like those few non-believers are interested in any form for dialog, only to make fun of believers.

To be honest this is a form of confirmation bias.

You're looking for people who think like you to help validate your beliefs. There's no challenge in that but more of being in ones own comfort zone.

I had a former friend like that. I asked her opposing questions about her belief and she said "don't ask me those questions as it will make me doubt my belief."

That sounds the same as how you express what you feel when nonbelievers (or people who aren't spiritually wise?) challenge you.

Maybe you're not ready to be challenged about your beliefs?

You said in another post you "believe." Beliefs can change. Facts cannot. Maybe look more into your beliefs until they become facts then if someone challenged you, you Know what/why/and how you believe and express it without a hiccup.

Mind you this hasn't anything to do with your language skills to put it out there. Just saying maybe you're jumping the gun with spirituality and still need to grow in your belief to say it's your own.

Totally my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

To be honest this is a form of confirmation bias.

You're looking for people who think like you to help validate your beliefs. There's no challenge in that but more of being in ones own comfort zone.

I had a former friend like that. I asked her opposing questions about her belief and she said "don't ask me those questions as it will make me doubt my belief."

That sounds the same as how you express what you feel when nonbelievers (or people who aren't spiritually wise?) challenge you.

Maybe you're not ready to be challenged about your beliefs?

You said in another post you "believe." Beliefs can change. Facts cannot. Maybe look more into your beliefs until they become facts then if someone challenged you, you Know what/why/and how you believe and express it without a hiccup.

Mind you this hasn't anything to do with your language skills to put it out there. Just saying maybe you're jumping the gun with spirituality and still need to grow in your belief to say it's your own.

Totally my opinion.

I have no problem discussing with anybody, as long they keep the discussion on a basis of wanting to know and sharing their belief, I do not seek childish comments life "your belief is wrong, because I don't believe it" or the standard " that's a srawman" at least if the people coming with that sort of comments, know that those things are not serious, and mostly only to derail threads ( IMHO)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have no problem discussing with anybody, as long they keep the discussion on a basis of wanting to know and sharing their belief, I do not seek childish comments life "your belief is wrong, because I don't believe it" or the standard " that's a srawman" at least if the people coming with that sort of comments, know that those things are not serious, and mostly only to derail threads ( IMHO)

But who (not names) is telling you your beliefs is wrong "for you?"

It's their opinion that a said belief is wrong just as you have beliefs you feel that is right. That doesn't mean they tell you it's not right for you it's just their opinion expressed or not. It's not you personally. I don't see people criticizing you.

Are you sure they are telling you your beliefs are wrong for you or just having an opinion your beliefs are wrong?

One is personal and the other can be taken personally even though it may not be the intent. I'm speaking in general. There are a few who have "atheist scripts" but believers do too so that I'd set aside for the big picture.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But who (not names) is telling you your beliefs is wrong "for you?"

It's their opinion that a said belief is wrong just as you have beliefs you feel that is right. That doesn't mean they tell you it's not right for you it's just their opinion expressed or not. It's not you personally. I don't see people criticizing you.

Are you sure they are telling you your beliefs are wrong for you or just having an opinion your beliefs are wrong?

One is personal and the other can be taken personally even though it may not be the intent. I'm speaking in general. There are a few who gave "atheist scripts" but believers do too so that I'd set aside for the big picture.

When words as "your faith is wrong, your religion is wrong" or similar
Or when certain people do not accept anything you say from a personal belief.
The it's just bias.

Mostly all in RF know that when I speak it is from a personal belief in God my question then become
How can those people say my personal belief is wrong?

It is personal beliefs, meaning if others believe different, that is no problem at all.