• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why does a loving God allow animals to suffer?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This problem arises with ancient anthropomorphic image of God Created by an ancient Biblical world view. The myth of Creation in Genesis makes a clumsy effort to explain the suffering, pain and violence of our natural world including humans by explaining that God created everything perfect, but the Original Sin and the Fall corrupted Creation, and humanity.
I was never a Christian so I never read the Bible, just bits and pieces. i do not even know the Adam and Eve story very well, but I know it well enough to know it has caused people to believe irrational things... How could all of that happen because one woman ate an apple from a tree? It make no sense.
If God exists God Created the nature of our existence naturally as it is without the conjecture and human efforts to Create God in their own image.

What humans perceive as suffering is the natural course of life and nature of Creation. The ultimate nature of our physical existence is the evolving spiritual nature underlying everything.
However, it is still perceived as suffering, be it human or animal suffering. I can understand why humans suffer, but not why animals suffer. I guess I just have to accept that there are things I cannot understand, and hopefully I will come to understand them in the next life.
I believe God exists, but the anthropomorphic God of the Bible only exists in vain egocentric human imagination.
I could not agree with you more. ;)
 

allfoak

Alchemist
If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.
Creation was subjected to futility in hope of it being saved.
Material must become spirit.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's related to the reason God allows us to suffer, free will. It's absolutely necessary that we have an objectively natural, consistently rational universe in which to make our moral choices. One of the choices we make is the humane treatment of animals.
Now you sound like a theist, but I understand what you mean since I am one...

I was speaking from the heart, not from my rational mind. :)
In any case, their suffering, like ours, is but a blink.
If as I believe there is another life after this, this life is a blink compared to our total existence, but it is not a blink in the sense that some people and animals suffer a lot longer than it takes to blink.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Upon what are you basing this premise? Scripture?

Scripture is written by man, who at the time had a very limited knowledge of the animal psyche. It is now a well known fact that many animals, especially mammals, learn lessons.
Yes, I can agree with that. So in that sense maybe some of their suffering could be to learn a lesson, not to repeat the same mistake. When I said lessons, I meant animals do not have to learn lessons in order to grown spiritually and prepare themselves for a future existence.
As I see it, animals suffer for the same reason humans do. They are subject to the same laws of causality that humans are. The very subject of your OP supports this. I'm unclear why people dismiss this in favor of unsubstantiated words in a book.
I agree with that. People do dismiss it because of words in their scriptures, but I am not one of the dismissers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because that is the natural order of the world we live in. The strong survive and the weak die. You only have a problem with that because you have hormones that influence your emotional state.causing you to empathizes with these animals. Since it's impossible to change the natural order of the world why don't you distract yourself with something you enjoy so those feelings past.
Of course we cannot change the natural order of creation, but I do not have to like God's "natural order."

I have a problem with it because I have empathy for animals. What is wrong with empathy? :confused:
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
You know that as a Buddhist I'd think it would not matter what a deity may or may not think of animal suffering. Remember where I'm coming from as a Buddhist...

What do we think about it? Does it sit well with us truly in our heart of hearts, when we let ourselves think about it- that animals feel pain, suffering, loss, and torment, which our actions have the power to aggravate or alleviate? If we reason to ourselves that it's alright to add to animal suffering- what are we actually concerned about? That means we don't think much of the suffering of people either, as suffering doesn't bother us.

Don't the Baha'i writings say what we can do out of concern for animal suffering? Last I heard they say the same thing Hindu and Buddhist writings say. That vegetarian diet is ideal, and that we should champion the cause of animals against oppressors and users.

Sorry I can't delve into the more complex theological dimension of your question. In Buddhism, we don't necessarily look to deities for our morals. The Buddha came from the unconstructed for us, which makes him more qualified than any deity on moral matters- though he appeared in the form of a man.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
When I said lessons, I meant animals do not have to learn lessons in order to grown spiritually and prepare themselves for a future existence.

What makes you so certain of this?

There are those that believe in animal totems, which are spiritual in nature, and base their (human) lessons on these totems. Is it so difficult to believe that these animals themselves didn't experience some sort of spiritual growth of their human counterparts?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Suffering of humans can be explained by the fact that we are sinful, we have free will and we cause a lot of our own suffering. Other suffering that we endure is at the hands of other humans. Humans learn lessons and grow spiritually by suffering and we have recompense in an afterlife, so one can still accommodate a loving God that allows suffering...

Animals are all innocent and do not learn lessons or grow spiritually from suffering. Also, as far as we know from scriptures, animals do not have an afterlife. Although it is possible they continue to exist in some form, that was not mentioned in any scriptures that I know of.

If God created animals out of love, why does a loving God allow animals to suffer? I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind or in my heart.

God doesn't allow animals to suffer, man allows animals to suffer, God put man to be the care taker of the animals, the earth and everything upon the earth and that is in the ocean seas.

So if animals suffer, it's by the hands of man's, why animals suffer, and all living things suffer at the hands of man's.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
God doesn't allow animals to suffer, man allows animals to suffer, God put man to be the care taker of the animals, the earth and everything upon the earth and that is in the ocean seas.

So if animals suffer, it's by the hands of man's, why animals suffer, and all living things suffer at the hands of man's.

I almost bought this in CCD, but then I wondered...where does it say in the Bible that all things suffer at the hands of man? And why does God permit this inane suffering?

Do you have answers my clergy didn't?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You know that as a Buddhist I'd think it would not matter what a deity may or may not think of animal suffering. Remember where I'm coming from as a Buddhist...

What do we think about it? Does it sit well with us truly in our heart of hearts, when we let ourselves think about it- that animals feel pain, suffering, loss, and torment, which our actions have the power to aggravate or alleviate? If we reason to ourselves that it's alright to add to animal suffering- what are we actually concerned about? That means we don't think much of the suffering of people either, as suffering doesn't bother us.

Don't the Baha'i writings say what we can do out of concern for animal suffering? Last I heard they say the same thing Hindu and Buddhist writings say. That vegetarian diet is ideal, and that we should champion the cause of animals against oppressors and users.
Yes, the Baha'i Writings address animal suffering. Below is one quote but there are probably more:

“Briefly, it is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man. Man hath not grasped this truth, however, and he believeth that physical sensations are confined to human beings, wherefore is he unjust to the animals, and cruel.

And yet in truth, what difference is there when it cometh to physical sensations? The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities. If a man inflict a thousand ills upon a beast, it can neither ward him off with speech nor hale him into court. Therefore is it essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man.

Train your children from their earliest days to be infinitely tender and loving to animals. If an animal be sick, let the children try to heal it, if it be hungry, let them feed it, if thirsty, let them quench its thirst, if weary, let them see that it rests.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 158-159

Sorry I can't delve into the more complex theological dimension of your question. In Buddhism, we don't necessarily look to deities for our morals. The Buddha came from the unconstructed for us, which makes him more qualified than any deity on moral matters- though he appeared in the form of a man.
What is the unconstructed? You said "he appeared in the form of a man." Does that mean you believe he was not a man?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What makes you so certain of this?

There are those that believe in animal totems, which are spiritual in nature, and base their (human) lessons on these totems. Is it so difficult to believe that these animals themselves didn't experience some sort of spiritual growth of their human counterparts?
I am not certain of anything, especially what happens to animals when they die. I think they survive death in some form but there is no way to know for certain.

I am also not certain that animals do not experience some sort of spiritual growth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God doesn't allow animals to suffer, man allows animals to suffer, God put man to be the care taker of the animals, the earth and everything upon the earth and that is in the ocean seas.

So if animals suffer, it's by the hands of man's, why animals suffer, and all living things suffer at the hands of man's.
You are wrong about that. Animals suffer in the wild of sickness and disease. That is not at the hands of man.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not certain of anything, especially what happens to animals when they die. I think they survive death in some form but there is no way to know for certain.

Is there a way to know for certain that we survive death?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is there a way to know for certain that we survive death?
If you mean scientific proof, no, we do not have that. Since the spiritual realm is another realm of existence that is non-material, it can never be proven by science.

However, in addition to what is written in scriptures, there is evidence that we survive death. There are NDEs and there are mediums who have communicated with spirits on the other side. I believe these are fairly accurate depictions because they concur with my beliefs.

I know for certain that we survive death but that is because of my beliefs and the other evidence. I do not need proof of what cannot be proven. It is illogical to expect to have that. ;)
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
What is the unconstructed? You said "he appeared in the form of a man." Does that mean you believe he was not a man?

Ah this is a complex subject and it goes into the nature of Nirvana.

The unconstructed means simply that paradoxical nature that escapes all forms and human definitions. That great unspeakable that the Buddha acknowledged was there since it is one and the same with Nirvana, but refused to say anything about.

The Buddha entered Nirvana at his death. Even so, Buddhists have continued asking him and all the Buddhas for help, appealing to his great heart of pity for all suffering creatures. Nirvana is not extinction in traditional Buddhism. It's not something we say much about, however.

As to the Buddha being a man, certainly he was born as one and lived. However, he wasn't like other men. He had auspicious birthmarks on his body and was born to become the Buddha.

Nothing could have prevented that destiny. Once he became enlightened he claimed to be neither god or human, but Buddha (awake).

He had knowledge and abilities through his enlightenment most of us don't have.

In the sense Mahayanists have believed that Shakyamuni descended from the Pure Land of the Buddhas and was born a man for the salvation of beings- it has been held he was more than human.

Historically Buddhists have always treated it of such fundamental importance that the Buddha was not just an ordinary man that texts like the Parinirvana Sutra (part of the canon of both vehicles- Theravada: Parinibbana Sutta) anathemize anyone who would say so, or deny the Buddhas manifest from the Ultimate.
 
Last edited:

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I almost bought this in CCD, but then I wondered...where does it say in the Bible that all things suffer at the hands of man? And why does God permit this inane suffering?

Do you have answers my clergy didn't?


If you go to the book of Genesis 1:26--"God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have Dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth"

There you have it, So if animals suffer it's by the hands man's, seeing man has the Dominion over the animals.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
You are wrong about that. Animals suffer in the wild of sickness and disease. That is not at the hands of man.

If animals suffer in the wilderness and those animals are found, then hopefully they are found and taken to a vet to help them get better over their sickness and diseases.

So either man can help the animals or let them suffer.
 
Top