• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

Smoke

Done here.
On another thread, srturtle wrote:

I have no problems with mormons (if I did then painted wolf and I would not be together) but I have SERIOUS objections to the baptism of the dead. But this is not the place to object to it. I'm sorry.

I remember the first time I saw that one of my ancestors had been baptized by proxy in the Mormon Church -- it was a Roman Catholic great-great-grandfather of mine. I found it a little unnerving at first, and a little insulting. I remember thinking that my grandmother -- who at that time was fairly recently deceased -- wouldn't have been at all amused to see her grandfather's name in that context.

However, on reflection, I concluded that it really wasn't such a big deal, and that the Mormon interest in genealogy for religious reasons was actually to my advantage, since they made so many records more easily accessible to researchers. I also began to wonder just who had taken this step on my ancestor's behalf; it turned out to be another descendant of his, a woman of whom I had not previously been aware. I think it's very much to her credit that once we made contact, much later, she asked my permission to use my research for Temple submissions. I really don't think she was under any obligation to do so, but it was a nice gesture, and I didn't have any problem with it.

I can understand that this is a serious issue for Jews, especially where Holocaust victims are concerned, and I can sympathize with their concern. I don't understand why it should be a problem for most people, though. Since I don't believe in it, and I don't think it has any effect at all on my ancestors, what's the difference?

Are there other people who are bothered by the practice? Why?
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
Well I don't know much about it. Do they take the dead body of the person and physically baptize them?(I really don't know that's why I ask). If that's how they do it then I can see way some would be bothered by it, I mean, if some one is dead they should stay were they are and not be disturbed it, it would be going against what the person wanted right. But if that's not how it's done, then I don't know.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Well I don't know much about it. Do they take the dead body of the person and physically baptize them?(I really don't know that's why I ask). If that's how they do it then I can see way some would be bothered by it, I mean, if some one is dead they should stay were they are and not be disturbed it, it would be going against what the person wanted right. But if that's not how it's done, then I don't know.

No, they don't.

It's also known as "baptism by proxy." Someone stands in for the deceased person and gets baptized for them.

I don't know why anyone would get upset by that, but then, I'm not upset by it myself, so what do I know?
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Well I don't know much about it. Do they take the dead body of the person and physically baptize them?(I really don't know that's why I ask).

That's an interesting comment, and many people believe that the LDS Church does. It's a sad and disgusting rumor that anti-Mormons love to pass around. Yet, it has no sense it. Think about ALL the people that have been baptized by proxy, how could the LDS Church dig them all up and baptized them? It's just not logical, but that's what the smear campaign is known for. Illogicality.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Maybe I should explain how the LDS baptisms for the dead work so that people can decide if it bothers them.

Someone (usually a youth between 14 and 18) stands in a font that looks something like this:

font2_hr.jpg


The oxen represent the 12 tribes (in case you're curious).

Anyway, there is a priesthood holder in the font with them, two witnesses that sit outside the font (to make sure that the baptism is done correctly) and a recorder with a list of names.

The priesthood holder doing the baptism says, "Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for and in behalf of [full name of deceased person], who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." The person is then baptised by complete immersion, they come out of the water, and do the next one.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Do they take the dead body of the person and physically baptize them?
Well, that would be disgusting. It's nothing at all like that, though. All by proxy, and they don't go around saying your grandfather is now a Mormon, or anything like that, so it's really just an internal matter for the LDS Church. I don't see how it concerns most non-Mormons, though, as I said, a lot of people have concerns about Holocaust victims being baptized by proxy, and I can sympathize with that. As I understand it, those concerns have been recognized by the Mormons, and they will no longer do proxy baptisms for Jews who died in the Holocaust without the permission of a descendant.
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
That's an interesting comment, and many people believe that the LDS Church does. It's a sad and disgusting rumor that anti-Mormons love to pass around. Yet, it has no sense it. Think about ALL the people that have been baptized by proxy, how could the LDS Church dig them all up and baptized them? It's just not logical, but that's what the smear campaign is known for. Illogicality.


Understood, it doesn't make sense, and thank you and Booko for answering me. And my answer now is no, it doesn't really bother me.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Well, that would be disgusting. It's nothing at all like that, though. All by proxy, and they don't go around saying your grandfather is now a Mormon, or anything like that, so it's really just an internal matter for the LDS Church. I don't see how it concerns most non-Mormons, though, as I said, a lot of people have concerns about Holocaust victims being baptized by proxy, and I can sympathize with that. As I understand it, those concerns have been recognized by the Mormons, and they will no longer do proxy baptisms for Jews who died in the Holocaust without the permission of a descendant.

*Most* temple work (not all obviously) is done for ancestors of members of the LDS church. The church doesn't really have a good way of checking on this, so it isn't always the case. They are careful about the holocaust victims being baptised and worked out a deal with the Jews that does still allow for members who have direct ancestors who were in the concentration camps to do the temple work for their family members.
 

spiritually inclined

Active Member
Hm....

Why do they do this? Do they believe this will somehow contribute to the well being of the soul on the other side?

On the one hand, I wouldn't care because it doesn't affect me. Yet I don't like the idea of someone standing in for my baptism in a church I wouldn't want to be a part of, even if I was dead.

James
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
I'm curious about whether the oxen go all the way around. How do you get into something like that?

The oxen do go all the way around. In the top right of the picture you can see the walk way to the font. The font is usually set lower in the ground than the floor of the building. So, the church members are sitting at the level of the font and would have to look down to see the Oxen.

Ironically, it also looks like there is a star of david on the floor in this temple. I'm not sure which one it is.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Why do they do this? Do they believe this will somehow contribute to the well being of the soul on the other side?

We believe that baptism by someone with the proper authority is a necessary ordinance for salvation. We believe that people can continue to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in the next life, but that they still need baptism. In order to give them the opportunity to partake in full salvation we perform temple work, which includes baptism for the dead (along with other ordinances, which people don't really care about as much I guess). We then believe that the person has the ability to either accept or reject this ordinance. If they reject it, it is as if it was never done. If they accept it, it is as if they we baptised while on earth. We don't know who has and has not accepted the gospel, so we just do everyone's temple work for them and give them the choice.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain to me the jews and holocaust bit - i dont understand why it would be a bigger issue for them than anyone else?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain to me the jews and holocaust bit - i dont understand why it would be a bigger issue for them than anyone else?

The church has made some deals with the Jews. For example, it doesn't do any missionary work in Israel. It also doens't allow holocaust victims to be baptised and have temple work done for them. It is a big issue for them because they made it a big issue and the church wants to keep a good relationship with them. A lot of it has to do with the church's BYU campus in Jerusalem.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Can someone explain to me the jews and holocaust bit - i dont understand why it would be a bigger issue for them than anyone else?
Because it is possible to add insult to injury, and those who have suffered the most grievous injury deserve special consideration. It's bad enough if your grandmother was murdered by Nazis, and it would be nice to refrain from saying she needs to convert postmortem to my religion.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Because it is possible to add insult to injury, and those who have suffered the most grievous injury deserve special consideration. It's bad enough if your grandmother was murdered by Nazis, and it would be nice to refrain from saying she needs to convert postmortem to my religion.

That too.

It also goes against church policy anyway. My understanding is that if someone is not your direct ancestor and they died in the last 100 years, you are supposed to ask for permission of their living relatives before doing any temple work.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
That too.

It also goes against church policy anyway. My understanding is that if someone is not your direct ancestor and they died in the last 100 years, you are supposed to ask for permission of their living relatives before doing any temple work.
I was just going to ask about this. Because I think it's highly disrespectful to baptize a person into another faith without the relative's permission. I'm glad to hear that you ask first. :)
 

Blindinglight

Disciple of Chaos
It does bother me, greatly.
Why? I do not want my name associated with any religion. I strongly feel to have my name and reputation as being strongly anti-religion, to be associated with a religion without my consent, is rude and insulting, and a scoff at my reputation.
I am even working with a lawyer to have my name put on a "do not Baptise" list.
 

rojse

RF Addict
But the person who is being baptised never wished for a baptism while he/she was alive. They had their own religious beliefs, and if they didn't, they were atheists. Why should they "need" a baptism anyway?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It does bother me, greatly.
Why? I do not want my name associated with any religion. I strongly feel to have my name and reputation as being strongly anti-religion, to be associated with a religion without my consent, is rude and insulting, and a scoff at my reputation.
I am even working with a lawyer to have my name put on a "do not Baptise" list.

Do you think such a list would really work? Wouldn’t the Mormons just use that list as a source of names for their ritual?
 
Top