Audie
Veteran Member
Its never been a legal excuse
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Why does being pro-life tend to be associated with being religious?
- Thread starter anotherneil
- Start date
Its never been a legal excuse
I gather you're pro-choice (correct me if I'm wrong). If the "woman's right to choose" argument is an oversimplification, what do you see as a valid argument for legalizing elective abortion?
How I see it is that even if one assumed the fetus were equal to a delivered baby in terms of rights (and during the majority of the pregnancy, I don't believe that to be the case), the woman's right to bodily autonomy would take precedence over any right the fetus had as long as the fetus was inside her body. If an adult could only survive via a kidney donation and another person refused to donate theirs, the latter would still have the right to their bodily autonomy.
I view the above as an argument that focuses on bodily autonomy without delving into whether a fetus has the same rights as a born person or not.
Ven der putz shteht ligt der sechel in drerd.
exchemist
Veteran Member
To me, early abortion is little different from miscarriage, which frequently occurs naturally for a number of reasons when the pregnancy isn't going right or there is a genetic defect in the foetus. Inducing a miscarriage because the woman does not want the pregancy and/or the future child is little different, it seems to me. I think late abortion should be avoided.
Anti-choice, IMO.
They often oppose programs that would reduce the number of abortions (e.g. proper sex ed, available contraception, proper job-protected parental leave). They also tend to support policies that would merely drive abortions underground instead of actually reducing their numbers.
Also, you can be anti-abortion without being anti-choice. Handing out condoms is an anti-abortion activity, for instance.
Heyo
Veteran Member
I wouldn't call those "elect" late-term abortions, they are forced by (changing) circumstances.
And I have forgotten/neglected to include exceptions for those circumstances. They are not as easily described as "danger to life of the pregnant person" or "severe damage of the fetus". Ideally, they shouldn't happen and decisions would have to be on a case by case basis.
The people who call themselves "pro-life" aren't generally that anti-abortion.
These movements generally have little to no interest in any policies or actions that would reduce abortions unless they punish the pregnant person in some way.
If a measure would make pregnant people happier or better off, the "pro-life" crowd don't touch it, no matter how many abortions it would prevent.
I agree, on both counts. Where I find that things get complicated is the question of where to draw the line legally; many different countries draw it at considerably different points in the pregnancy (as listed here). I have no definitive position on what the exact answer to that question should be, myself.
I think the most reasonable way to avoid abortion is generally through access to contraception, sex education, and other well-evidenced methods that don't involve highly restrictive legislation.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Yes, just because it is hard to agree on what stage to draw the line does not mean it cannot be done, even if any given cutoff is somewhat arbitrary.
I certainly agree the best way to reduce the demand for abortions is better sex education for both sexes and easily availability of contraception.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
What does that mean?
Tamino
Active Member
If the penis stands up, the wit lies on the earth
Yiddish, I think.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
Late term abortions are literally medical necessity, despite what forced birthers would try to have people believe.
The pregnancy was in fact wanted, but something went wrong. The baby died in the womb and needed to be removed, a genetic deformation was detected that would greatly impact the quality of life, or would cause it to die anyway, a newly diagnosed illness to the woman would make it dangerous for her to continue the pregnancy, or a bad injury occurred.
Early term abortions are best if people cannot carry safely due to health reasons, don't want kids but are denied tubal ligation, are too young to be having kids, don't want anymore kids, can't afford to have kids, or
don't feel like they are ready to have them right now. It can even be quickly and chemically induced.
Like, we do get what they're saying when they say they life is precious, but its very rare that they extend the same courtesy of listening to anyone who has had to have one.
No one with a working brain is going to be charmed by the fact that they have to lie, threaten, assault, bomb clinics, and slander women in order to feed their malicious propaganda.
None of them are gynecologists and most of them probably played hookie during biology, or had a very sheltered and strict religious upbringing. I've heard people admit that they thought early stage fetuses looked just like a microscopic baby until they finally looked at a development chart, and I was like
So where do they get off spouting nonsense that women can shut down their wombs during rape, that all miscarriages and D&C are abortion, and that ectopic pregnancies can be magically reimplanted? That's a whole other level of willful ignorance.
The pregnancy was in fact wanted, but something went wrong. The baby died in the womb and needed to be removed, a genetic deformation was detected that would greatly impact the quality of life, or would cause it to die anyway, a newly diagnosed illness to the woman would make it dangerous for her to continue the pregnancy, or a bad injury occurred.
Early term abortions are best if people cannot carry safely due to health reasons, don't want kids but are denied tubal ligation, are too young to be having kids, don't want anymore kids, can't afford to have kids, or
don't feel like they are ready to have them right now. It can even be quickly and chemically induced.
Like, we do get what they're saying when they say they life is precious, but its very rare that they extend the same courtesy of listening to anyone who has had to have one.
No one with a working brain is going to be charmed by the fact that they have to lie, threaten, assault, bomb clinics, and slander women in order to feed their malicious propaganda.
None of them are gynecologists and most of them probably played hookie during biology, or had a very sheltered and strict religious upbringing. I've heard people admit that they thought early stage fetuses looked just like a microscopic baby until they finally looked at a development chart, and I was like
So where do they get off spouting nonsense that women can shut down their wombs during rape, that all miscarriages and D&C are abortion, and that ectopic pregnancies can be magically reimplanted? That's a whole other level of willful ignorance.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
Oh.
Tamino
Active Member
I think that was a comment on whether "having sex" would count as a contractual agreement on "potentially getting pregnant"... As in: if you have sex you take responsibility for the possible consequences... And that people who have sex are not necessarily in the right frame of mind to enter a formal contract
Portnoy's complaint. Almost right -- change "the wit" to the "brain" and "lies on the" to " is buried in the."
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Tamino
Active Member
Isn't "Seichel" either wit or brain?
But yeah, I was wondering about "ligt in der erd", because in German that would literally mean "lies in the earth" and I thought that "on" was more plausible. But if we translate "buried" the preposition fits.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
If the penis stands up the brain is buried in the earth? :s
GardenLady
Active Member
Indeed. That is why they often keep repeating the phrase “innocent life” in their arguments, to exclude those they are happy to have killed.
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PureX
Veteran Member
The real reason that anti-abortion people also tend to be religious is because people that believe in God tend to believe that we humans should not be playing God. That we do not have the right to decide who gets to be born and who doesn't. They are OK with killing murderers for two reasons, one is that the murderers are not 'innocent' and the other is that they believe their God told them that murderers should be put to death. So in the case of capital punishment, they believe that killing people is OK when we're doing it on God's behalf and as a part of God's judgment.