Ba'al
Active Member
Mt(7:16) "So by their fruit you will know them"
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Why does God allow suffering?
- Thread starter Sidon
- Start date
Mt(7:16) "So by their fruit you will know them"
dust1n
Zindīq
In my opinion, the world is in the state where God can't or hasn't cleaned up his creation, because he didn't create it and he doesn't exist.
Why? Because there is no God..... there is no supernatural....
Close your eyes and imagine the Christian 'God', watching his pederast priests and ministers and pastors as they abuse young girls and boys, children themselves quite likely to be praying to God to stop the abuse. And God does nothing? The omnipotent 'God' that intervenes for cancer patients who pray, but won't answer the prayers of children being sexually abused? Is this the world we live in, where the Christian 'God' will save his pederast servants but not the trusting children? No, there are no 'gods'.
"Either God wills to remove evil from the world, and cannot; or he can, and will not; or he neither wills nor can; or finally he wills and can. If he wills and cannot, he is impotent; if he can and will not, he is wicked; if he neither wills nor can, he is wicked and impotent at the same time; if he can and will, why does evil exist?" -- Epicurus, 342 - 270 bc
How is it possible to look at the this world around us and still believe in a 'God'?
Close your eyes and imagine the Christian 'God', watching his pederast priests and ministers and pastors as they abuse young girls and boys, children themselves quite likely to be praying to God to stop the abuse. And God does nothing? The omnipotent 'God' that intervenes for cancer patients who pray, but won't answer the prayers of children being sexually abused? Is this the world we live in, where the Christian 'God' will save his pederast servants but not the trusting children? No, there are no 'gods'.
"Either God wills to remove evil from the world, and cannot; or he can, and will not; or he neither wills nor can; or finally he wills and can. If he wills and cannot, he is impotent; if he can and will not, he is wicked; if he neither wills nor can, he is wicked and impotent at the same time; if he can and will, why does evil exist?" -- Epicurus, 342 - 270 bc
How is it possible to look at the this world around us and still believe in a 'God'?
It is possible to look at this world around us and believe in God because it is in God's Word [Bible] the cause of the 'woe' found at: Revelation 12: 9, 12.
Jesus also forewarned us about our day at Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21.
Jesus even said before his peaceful 1000-year reign over earth would begin that there would be 'great' earthquakes [Luke 21:11] as part of his composite sign with many features and events taking place on earth including the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus (Matt 24:14) before the end of all badness on earth comes.
2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13 describes people's behavior, their attitudes and actions, their selfish distorted form of love during these 'last days' of badness on earth before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
Remember, Adam by disobedience to God choose independence from God as ruler.
Adam set up people rule over God rule, and what we see surrounding the world today is the result of men ruling independent from God. God allows mankind to use their gift of free will any way they choose until there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs as described at Isaiah 11:4; Rev. 19:11,15. Those wicked of Psalm 92:7 will be removed from earth at that time. The upright remain according to Proverbs 2:21,22.
The world scene today is showing beyond a shadow of a doubt that man can not rule himself independent of God's Golden Rule, and only Jesus can separate the righteous from the wicked. -Matthew 25:32.
Jesus also forewarned us about our day at Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21.
Jesus even said before his peaceful 1000-year reign over earth would begin that there would be 'great' earthquakes [Luke 21:11] as part of his composite sign with many features and events taking place on earth including the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus (Matt 24:14) before the end of all badness on earth comes.
2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13 describes people's behavior, their attitudes and actions, their selfish distorted form of love during these 'last days' of badness on earth before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
Remember, Adam by disobedience to God choose independence from God as ruler.
Adam set up people rule over God rule, and what we see surrounding the world today is the result of men ruling independent from God. God allows mankind to use their gift of free will any way they choose until there is divine intervention into mankind's affairs as described at Isaiah 11:4; Rev. 19:11,15. Those wicked of Psalm 92:7 will be removed from earth at that time. The upright remain according to Proverbs 2:21,22.
The world scene today is showing beyond a shadow of a doubt that man can not rule himself independent of God's Golden Rule, and only Jesus can separate the righteous from the wicked. -Matthew 25:32.
dharma_seeker
Member
GOD never brings suffering to his creation and never cause misfortune to them. We are solely responsible for our rewards and sufferings which are based on our KARMA (deeds/actions) from previous births. As you reap so shall you sow.
Ba'al
Active Member
So the 15 million children that starve to death every year are because of their past lives? God should at least tell these children then so they understand.
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dharma_seeker
Member
The vedic philosophy of Karma and rebirth makes so much sense when applied to things like mentioned above. All those kids are not suffering from previous lives but they are suffering due to the actions or Karma they performed in their previous lives. You have to give account for your previous Karma in this life. GOD cannot be that cruel to cause them this suffering as IT is the creator and most forgiving and merciful.
Just think about it, according to Abrahmic religions, after a body dies, the soul survives (i think) so...
If it does survive, where does it go?
Eternal heaven or hell?
There are problems with that.
* It implies that God is cruel as he gives no second chance.
* It implies that God is unfair as he stacks the deck in favor of some souls, against others.
For example, a person born in a good Christian family will get every opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ, put his faith in Christ, and, according to Christian teachings, be saved. But if you're born in an atheistic or unenlightened family--well, tough luck.
* It leaves no sensible way to explain why people (or, for that matter, any living beings) are born in different circumstances.
Why should one person be born rich, another poor, one healthy, another diseased? If we live only once, it seems the best you can say is "It's just chance" - which is no explanation at all.
If this philosophy is not mentioned in your religious scriptures, it does not mean it is false. It is one of the main philosophy from the eastern religions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Vedic teachings about reincarnation offer us an opportunity to understand our material circumstances more deeply, and those teachings answer questions that might otherwise yield no suitable answers.
* Why are living beings born in such a multiplicity of forms and circumstances? Not by chance but because of their previous acts.
* How is it that some people have extraordinary skills, even at an early age? How is it, for example, that Mozart was composing symphonies by the age of 4? If we accept the Vedic point of view, those skills may have persisted from a previous life.
* Even with ordinary abilities, some of us are good at mechanics, others at math, reincarnation offers explanatory value.
* Why do some of us have particular fears, others particular objects of fondness? One contributing reason may be the circumstances of a previous life.
* Why do some people feel they've got "the wrong gender"? Some men feel like they should be women, some women like they should be men. Why? Feelings persisting from a previous life offer, again, a contributing answer.
* The Vedic answer also virtually solves "the problem of evil."
Why do the innocent suffer? Why do bad things happen to good people? How can a just God permit injustice in the world? As soon as we accept the Vedic view, the problem virtually dissolves.
Each of us has to suffer or enjoy the results of our own past acts.
OM
Just think about it, according to Abrahmic religions, after a body dies, the soul survives (i think) so...
If it does survive, where does it go?
Eternal heaven or hell?
There are problems with that.
* It implies that God is cruel as he gives no second chance.
* It implies that God is unfair as he stacks the deck in favor of some souls, against others.
For example, a person born in a good Christian family will get every opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ, put his faith in Christ, and, according to Christian teachings, be saved. But if you're born in an atheistic or unenlightened family--well, tough luck.
* It leaves no sensible way to explain why people (or, for that matter, any living beings) are born in different circumstances.
Why should one person be born rich, another poor, one healthy, another diseased? If we live only once, it seems the best you can say is "It's just chance" - which is no explanation at all.
If this philosophy is not mentioned in your religious scriptures, it does not mean it is false. It is one of the main philosophy from the eastern religions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Vedic teachings about reincarnation offer us an opportunity to understand our material circumstances more deeply, and those teachings answer questions that might otherwise yield no suitable answers.
* Why are living beings born in such a multiplicity of forms and circumstances? Not by chance but because of their previous acts.
* How is it that some people have extraordinary skills, even at an early age? How is it, for example, that Mozart was composing symphonies by the age of 4? If we accept the Vedic point of view, those skills may have persisted from a previous life.
* Even with ordinary abilities, some of us are good at mechanics, others at math, reincarnation offers explanatory value.
* Why do some of us have particular fears, others particular objects of fondness? One contributing reason may be the circumstances of a previous life.
* Why do some people feel they've got "the wrong gender"? Some men feel like they should be women, some women like they should be men. Why? Feelings persisting from a previous life offer, again, a contributing answer.
* The Vedic answer also virtually solves "the problem of evil."
Why do the innocent suffer? Why do bad things happen to good people? How can a just God permit injustice in the world? As soon as we accept the Vedic view, the problem virtually dissolves.
Each of us has to suffer or enjoy the results of our own past acts.
OM
"Woe" to the earth...why? because the devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. - Revelation 12:12.
Who can sow 'great' earthquakes? (Luke 21:11)
Rather, isn't it as Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:11 that time and chance or unforeseen occurrences befall us all?
Jesus explained that the 18 that were killed at the tower of Siloam were just at the wrong place, wrong time. - Luke 13:2-5.
dharma_seeker
Member
In Hinduism, we believe before the creation of the material universe, there was nothing there, no day no night no air nothing.. There was only Brahm (cosmic reality) that created this material universe and everything else. Now, if this is somewhat similar to christianity, then who created the DEVIL or SATAN? IS it a creation of GOD?
Why were they at the wrong place at wrong time, what caused them to be in such circumstances? KARMA has the answer.
I personally like Christianity that other abrahmic faiths. This faith believes that GOD can come on earth in human form so do we. Christian have an impersonal GOD Jevoha and we hindus also have an impersonal GOD called Brahman. Christians have 3 personal manifestions of the same impersonal GOD and We hindus have infinite personal manifestions of the same impersonal GOD.
Ba'al
Active Member
What sense is there in punishing someone if they aren't told what they did wrong? Do you spank your child years after they did something and then not even tell them why?
dharma_seeker
Member
This question is like one of those, that if GOD exists then why does not he comes before us and show us really that he exists. You cannot say GOD will tell you personally what Karmas you did in the past, that led you to this reward or suffering. That;s the whole point of faith. Noone know if God exists, but we all do believe in it and it is faith. We can answer the "WHY" question for the sufferings of these children with the help of KARMA. Now, let me tell you that there are various ways by which you can know about ur past. I am just giving brief intro.
First of all, there are psychologists who have done past life regressions and other paranormal technique to know about a person's past lives. The results are impressive.
Secondly, there are yogic techniques like Kriya Yoga, through which it is really easy to know about your previous births. Many have already tried it and found out about their previous lives. But see there is reason why you are not in a condition where you remember everything about your past by default. The reason being that it can cause harm to you or psychological distress. For example, let's say your best friend in this life, actually killed you in your previous birth. Now, you wont have same kind of relationship with him anymore. Similar examples are there that makes us forget about our past for our own good. But it is not totally forgotten, it is embedded deep in subconsiousness levels and can be brought to the surface by yogic techinques. There are also many examples of people in this world who actually remember about their past life since birth. I have seen many examples.
Also, there are some astrological data present that can help as well (can't give all details right now).
The above points tells us that if we want to know about our past, we can do it.
Karma law is not a punishment by God; that is just a natural law. "Action and reaction are equal and opposite." Or U can take Newton's law of gravity.... if u jump from a 10th floor of a building...... what will happen? Don't blame God for it later....
As per the Christian beliefs, the whole world can be called the "Karmic action of Adam and Eve", although God created them.
The "suffering" and "happiness" are two sides of the same coin. One may "suffer" living in a palace worse than the hungry kids in Africa. Both are products of the "mind". Mind is what this whole world is...."its all in your mind." But, God does require that u see God in others who are suffering and do all to help alleviate their pains.
Even the belief that God has to be compassionate is a belief of MIND. God is not the servant of our mind that He will do what fits in our mind. Yes , God is compassionate in the sense that He will help your Soul GO TO HIM, but may not do things which appear "good" to the mind. Miracles are just His "visiting card" so that idiots like us can recognize Him (or His messenger) and mould their life accordingly.
Regards,
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dharma_seeker
Member
Thanks SatSangi..
You can open a new thread in Hinduism section and gain from the knowledge of other members as well. OPen a thread to know everything about Reincarnation.
You can open a new thread in Hinduism section and gain from the knowledge of other members as well. OPen a thread to know everything about Reincarnation.
URAVIP2ME said:
"It is possible to look at this world around us and believe in God because it is in God's Word [Bible] the cause of the 'woe' found at: Revelation 12: 9, 12."
Why would you think the Bible is 'God's' word rather than a collection of myths and superstitions? My understanding is that nothing was recorded during Christ's lifetime, only 20 or more years later. All hearsay sources. And the Bible is such a contradictory bunch of messages and stories.
And what evidence is there that any gods or goddesses exist? Surely you can look around you and see there is nothing supernatural. Why would your 'God' create a world full of creatures, all of which must eat each other to survive, usually alive and in pain?
"It is possible to look at this world around us and believe in God because it is in God's Word [Bible] the cause of the 'woe' found at: Revelation 12: 9, 12."
Why would you think the Bible is 'God's' word rather than a collection of myths and superstitions? My understanding is that nothing was recorded during Christ's lifetime, only 20 or more years later. All hearsay sources. And the Bible is such a contradictory bunch of messages and stories.
And what evidence is there that any gods or goddesses exist? Surely you can look around you and see there is nothing supernatural. Why would your 'God' create a world full of creatures, all of which must eat each other to survive, usually alive and in pain?
Dharma Seeker said:
"GOD never brings suffering to his creation and never cause misfortune to them. We are solely responsible for our rewards and sufferings which are based on our KARMA (deeds/actions) from previous births. As you reap so shall you sow."
Never? Then what do these verses from the Bible mean:
1) Is 45:7, "I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."
2) Lam 3:37, "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
3) Amo 3:6, "When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?"
The problem is simple, your concept of 'God' is fictional, there is no 'isness', no 'being' to your 'God'. It's reification pure and simple, attributes that appeal to you so you say 'God' does this and 'God' does that, but where is there any evidence of the actual 'being' of 'God'.
George Smith also describes how the definition of 'God' is contradictory and incoherent, but obviously that hasn't stopped you from creating a god in the image you choose.
So you really believe a real 'God' would answer the prayers of cancer sufferers, and select others, but not young boys and girls being molested and abused. But then this is the same 'God' that kills millions of people in the Bible when it's all totaled, right? Such as at 2 Kings 19:38:
"That night the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp."
'Never' brings suffering to his creation? Why would you suggest such a thing?
"GOD never brings suffering to his creation and never cause misfortune to them. We are solely responsible for our rewards and sufferings which are based on our KARMA (deeds/actions) from previous births. As you reap so shall you sow."
Never? Then what do these verses from the Bible mean:
1) Is 45:7, "I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."
2) Lam 3:37, "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
3) Amo 3:6, "When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?"
The problem is simple, your concept of 'God' is fictional, there is no 'isness', no 'being' to your 'God'. It's reification pure and simple, attributes that appeal to you so you say 'God' does this and 'God' does that, but where is there any evidence of the actual 'being' of 'God'.
George Smith also describes how the definition of 'God' is contradictory and incoherent, but obviously that hasn't stopped you from creating a god in the image you choose.
So you really believe a real 'God' would answer the prayers of cancer sufferers, and select others, but not young boys and girls being molested and abused. But then this is the same 'God' that kills millions of people in the Bible when it's all totaled, right? Such as at 2 Kings 19:38:
"That night the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp."
'Never' brings suffering to his creation? Why would you suggest such a thing?
JTFC
Member
Suffering is something that we do to ourselves, and you're right, it's not God's doing. Because we do it to ourselves, we must take responsibility for our actions and clean up all of the unexplicably horrendous things that go on in our world today. Basically its our mess and we need to clean it up. God gave us Jesus to save us from going into eternal suffering but, we must deal with earthly suffering because it teaches us an important factor of life. We must suffer in order to grow and develop in holiness.
What contradictory message or story did you have in mind?
The Bible has corresponding verses or passages that looked at by subject or topic arrangement a more complete picture can be presented.