Heyo
Veteran Member
Here's a more complete list: **** Happens in various World Religious
WARNING. Explicit language.
Edit: had to make a tinyurl because the link got censored.
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Why Does God permit Suffering?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
WARNING. Explicit language.
Edit: had to make a tinyurl because the link got censored.
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Gargovic Malkav
Well-Known Member
The truth is that many long for unity and peace, but want to be left in their dignity at the same time.
I've also heard many people say that life would be boring without conflict and diversity.
I feel at peace with this because I love the truth, and because I myself am familiar with these seemingly contradictory attitudes.
At the same time, I long for a world that is better than this one.
I believe this mentality causes me to see this "Kingdom" Jesus spoke of, and to see the fulfillment of the Quranic promise that those who believe and perform acts of righteousness won't have to be sad and will be "victorious".
I don't think I would have this kind of awareness if I never suffer.
Suffering itself, in my opinion, is not the definition of evil. It's the way people deal with it that reveals whether there is evil or not.
I've also heard many people say that life would be boring without conflict and diversity.
I feel at peace with this because I love the truth, and because I myself am familiar with these seemingly contradictory attitudes.
At the same time, I long for a world that is better than this one.
I believe this mentality causes me to see this "Kingdom" Jesus spoke of, and to see the fulfillment of the Quranic promise that those who believe and perform acts of righteousness won't have to be sad and will be "victorious".
I don't think I would have this kind of awareness if I never suffer.
Suffering itself, in my opinion, is not the definition of evil. It's the way people deal with it that reveals whether there is evil or not.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Woa, you're too fast. I corrected it as soon as I saw it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.
As to thy husband, rest assured. He will be immersed in the ocean of pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favour. Strive thine utmost to give his child a Bahá’í training so that when he attaineth maturity he may be merciful, illumined and heavenly.
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 200-201
**********************************************
Let’s look at some of these statements:
Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world.
Well, that is just not entirely true, because first, we are bound to it because we have to live in it\; and second, comfort is indeed secured for many people, just not for others. I agree that for every sweet cup a bitter one will follow, but not a hundred bitter ones. I guess he was just trying to drive home his point, but I do not think it is right to say things that are not actually true
The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.
But even if we do not attach ourselves to this world or depend upon it, we have to live in it, and for some of us it is torturous much of the time, through no fault of our own. Free will is very limited to change many things so they have to be endured.
My other issue with this passage is that scriptures say that God does not test people beyond their capacity, but if that was true, nobody would ever commit suicide. To say that God did not give that person more than he could handle is as much as calling him a coward, but notice that he said in the second paragraph that the man will be immersed in the ocean of God’s pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favor. However, the real question is why such an honorable man had been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world if all he had to do to avoid it is to call upon God, and by His great Mercy be helped.
As to thy husband, rest assured. He will be immersed in the ocean of pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favour. Strive thine utmost to give his child a Bahá’í training so that when he attaineth maturity he may be merciful, illumined and heavenly.
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 200-201
**********************************************
Let’s look at some of these statements:
Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world.
Well, that is just not entirely true, because first, we are bound to it because we have to live in it\; and second, comfort is indeed secured for many people, just not for others. I agree that for every sweet cup a bitter one will follow, but not a hundred bitter ones. I guess he was just trying to drive home his point, but I do not think it is right to say things that are not actually true
The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.
But even if we do not attach ourselves to this world or depend upon it, we have to live in it, and for some of us it is torturous much of the time, through no fault of our own. Free will is very limited to change many things so they have to be endured.
My other issue with this passage is that scriptures say that God does not test people beyond their capacity, but if that was true, nobody would ever commit suicide. To say that God did not give that person more than he could handle is as much as calling him a coward, but notice that he said in the second paragraph that the man will be immersed in the ocean of God’s pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favor. However, the real question is why such an honorable man had been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world if all he had to do to avoid it is to call upon God, and by His great Mercy be helped.
While suffering considered in itself is a bad thing we also believe God permits nothing which cannot serve a greater good. Otherwise the goodness of God could be called into question. Thus Catholics believe that when we cooperate with God even suffering can further our sanctification.
I was referring to your suggestion...it was in no way a reference to my own beliefs.
Again I was referring to what you suggested, not what I believe.
If there was a valid reason for allowing suffering, would it be acceptable? What if God was proving a point with his adversary and all those who abused their free will, by not interfering with the choices of his rebellious children? If they were allowed to reap exactly what they sowed in serving their own interests.....then all the suffering that resulted will serve to reinforce God's first command to the humans in Eden.....obey and live.....disobey and you will suffer and die.
Its really that simple.
Sure if there was a valid reason, I'm just not convinced that God trying to prove a point with an alleged satan is a valid reason for allowing animals etc to suffer.
What law did the animals disobey to deserve their suffering? Animals simply follow their natural inclinations, I don't see why they are reaping what they sow by being the way nature made them.
Jesus 'alleged' his existence. Good enough for me.
In giving over the world to the control of the 'god' they chose in Eden, it unfortunately included all living things on this planet. The devil has control of it all, (1 John 5:19) so that God can demonstrate that nothing beneficial came from their taking the knowledge of good and evil for themselves, against God's expressed command.
For the animals, life was not everlasting, they would reproduce thereby replacing themselves in the circle of life.
They are programmed for death and have no concept of the future, meaning that they have no knowledge of death nor any dread of it. We do because we have no program for death...not for ourselves or the ones we love. Death was not meant to happen because life on earth was meant to be everlasting.
The Savior himself knows all about suffering. He gave his life for ours.....why do you think his death involved such unnecessary suffering? Death can be mercifully swift, but he did not experience that kind of a merciful death.
We humans seem to be obsessed with the idea of living in paradise....or as close to it as our income will allow. Even for a short vacation, we will pay a lot of money for a taste of it. Just coincidence? Why are we collectively drawn to paradise?
Why do we hate getting sick or old? Why do we enjoy a good day, but hate the bad ones.
Isn't it natural to gravitate towards what makes us happy?
And no human with relatively good health wants to die. We are programmed to go on living indefinitely....so growing old and suffering with age or disease is foreign to our psyche.
Death is not welcome to a happy, healthy 25 year old. Yet sometimes it comes, either quickly by accident or slowly through an extended illness.
Those like me who have reached their "three score and ten" don't feel any older inside our own minds, but outside our bodies are breaking down and succumbing to the inevitable.....but certainly not by choice.
King Solomon wrote....
"With a man there is nothing better [than] that he should eat and indeed drink and cause his soul to see good because of his hard work. This too I have seen, even I, that this is from the hand of the [true] God." (Ecclesiastes 2:24)
Even hard work when it has accomplished something good is satisfying. We are designed for hard work and to accomplish things. If the humans had simply obeyed the command of their God, we would not be in this predicament.
"The tree" represented God's sovereign right to set limits on the freedom that he gave to his human children. Free will is a precious gift, because without it, we would just be mindless robots, acting out of a set programming. God made us like himself, with his qualities and attributes. As long as our freedom did not impinge on the freedom of others, all would be well, but a rebel spirit challenged all that, and turned the gift into a curse.
The fact remains that while we are redeemed we remain subject to suffering. The good news is that in light of Christ no suffering need be accepted as meaningless. If we but trust in God. Because God always works for the greater good. Suffering exists therefore suffering serves a good purpose. Catholics believe this purpose to be our sanctification.
Hinduism has many layered explanations and solutions. One solution does not suit all kinds of people.
...
The idea that God, or karma, or some disembodied Justice, is punishing you for unspecified sins and offenses, is a guilt trip which Christianity seems to encourage─ penance as remedy, as it were. It's not a view I hold with.
And as was observed in ancient times ─ the saying attributed to Epicurus is an example ─ suffering shows that EITHER God is omnipotent but indifferent or malevolent, OR God is benevolent but not omnipotent OR God is neither benevolent or omnipotent.
But it's a problem unique to theology ─ take gods and dooms out of the picture and you remove the problem at the same time.
Meanwhile, suffering has been approached from many angles, philosophical, medical, political as well as religious. From the 5th century BCE the Stoics and their relatives the Cynics and the Epicureans, all thought of suffering as a state of mind rather than of body, and prescribed an altered mental approach, variations on the idea of putting aside self-pity and whining, instead changing what can be changed, bearing without complaint or fretting what can't be changed, and hoping to be smart enough to know which is which ─ you likely have a souvenir kitchen cloth that says the same thing.
Suffering is part of life. You just accept it and get over it. I don't know why humans have to complicate it by making it into some big philosophical issue.
There are threads of commonality among the various religions. Temptation to sin (or do stupid things). Reincarnation (chance to get it right). Live right. Test faith.
Maybe the main God sent similar messages to various cultures? Perhaps the full message of God is found in the commonalities? Maybe bibles have been rewritten over the years, and we lost sight of God's true messages? Maybe we need to learn other religions, not seeking to debase them, but seeking to merge ideas while respecting their take on their religion?
Maybe the main God sent similar messages to various cultures? Perhaps the full message of God is found in the commonalities? Maybe bibles have been rewritten over the years, and we lost sight of God's true messages? Maybe we need to learn other religions, not seeking to debase them, but seeking to merge ideas while respecting their take on their religion?
Audie
Veteran Member
The trick where suffering is man's own fault
instead of gods is not convincing.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I cannot accept the conventional interpretation of "original sin" as it posits God being willing to have innocent people, including children and some unborn through miscarriages, to die because centuries ago some sinned. This turns God into a genocidal maniac.
Hey! That is my birthday and something I'd say!
Sorry if you have already written it out and I haven't read it yet (and you can direct me to where it may be written by you if it is already), but what is your interpretation of "original sin" (and with the contrast or difference explained between your view and the conventional view)?
What are your ideas or possible "apologetics" or "theodicy" regarding all this as well?