Why Does God permit Suffering?

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

We humans seem to be obsessed with the idea of living in paradise....or as close to it as our income will allow. Even for a short vacation, we will pay a lot of money for a taste of it. Just coincidence? Why are we collectively drawn to paradise?

Why do we hate getting sick or old? Why do we enjoy a good day, but hate the bad ones.
Isn't it natural to gravitate towards what makes us happy?

And no human with relatively good health wants to die. We are programmed to go on living indefinitely....so growing old and suffering with age or disease is foreign to our psyche.
Death is not welcome to a happy, healthy 25 year old. Yet sometimes it comes, either quickly by accident or slowly through an extended illness.
Those like me who have reached their "three score and ten" don't feel any older inside our own minds, but outside our bodies are breaking down and succumbing to the inevitable.....but certainly not by choice.



King Solomon wrote....
"With a man there is nothing better [than] that he should eat and indeed drink and cause his soul to see good because of his hard work. This too I have seen, even I, that this is from the hand of the [true] God." (Ecclesiastes 2:24)

Even hard work when it has accomplished something good is satisfying. We are designed for hard work and to accomplish things. If the humans had simply obeyed the command of their God, we would not be in this predicament.

"The tree" represented God's sovereign right to set limits on the freedom that he gave to his human children. Free will is a precious gift, because without it, we would just be mindless robots, acting out of a set programming. God made us like himself, with his qualities and attributes. As long as our freedom did not impinge on the freedom of others, all would be well, but a rebel spirit challenged all that, and turned the gift into a curse.

Is there any reason to think that we aren't actually robots following programming and whatever we do is what our programming and various influences led us to do based on our programming?

That we desire not to suffer, does that really indicate that we weren't "meant" to? Some people desire to float around and fly, or can change their shape or appearance at will or in an instant, but that they have these ideas and want these things, does that mean much of anything or indicate anything really?

In my view, people are the mindless robots they dread being and insist they aren't. They don't choose what pops into their heads, there is no drop down display which appears before them of what limited things they may think in a moment, nor did they choose how such occurred or even influenced them. Furthermore, they are limited in everything, even the appearance of the choices of which they can only seem to choose one, and that they choose that one rather than another, may have ultimately been decided by what they didn't really choose or want for breakfast that morning.

It seems that our ability to think about these things and realize them is just an addition to our suffering, but if God has not intended it, then is God a clutz? God made a goof and something is occurring which God does not want or intend? There is suffering when there didn't need to be, God created at the very least the possibility for it, and then is pained to see some other force or forces dominantly do what God does not will? This foolish and clumsy being who is being pushed around and things are not as intended because some other force is deciding how things go, is somehow trustworthy and worthy of worship? What if God's response to my prayers slips out of God's hands and ends up reaching someone else that it wasn't meant to? What is to prevent another and another" "oopsy" from this imbecilic seeming weakling, dolt, and dotard?

Is the God that you may imagine or prefer, really the one that is apparent or which ought to be trusted in and worshipped? Could you comceive of something greater, perhaps the force which determines what occurs if God is not that force but follows after its decisions and watches as things, due to the decisions of the greater power, go as God does not wish or will?

That human beings do not like hurting, or animals don't like to be injured and maimed and gnashed in teeth, chased and killed, does that indicate that we and the animals were never supposed to eat?

I'm not sure any of this reasoning is making too much sense to me overall.

In my view, God is the one who made these things, intends them, and also perpetrates them, creates these experiences where such concepts exist and are manifested, where and how they occur in every form and detail. That is a God that doesn't slip, and nothing goes wrong for that God, that God is Great, but not Good.

Deuteronomy 32:39
Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

 

[metis]

Sorry if you have already written it out and I haven't read it yet (and you can direct me to where it may be written by you if it is already), but what is your interpretation of "original sin" (and with the contrast or difference explained between your view and the conventional view)?

What are your ideas or possible "apologetics" or "theodicy" regarding all this as well?

I don't claim to know how God "works", but my inkling is that we and our universe were made to be "good", as it says in the 1:1 Creation account, but not "perfect". To me, an implication of this approach is that the world is for us to make or break, thus an allowance for our "free will". Call it karma or "what goes around comes around", I fully accept that there are implications for what we may or may not do.

However, with that being said, just because I sin doesn't mean that a child dies in his/her mother's womb or from a serious birth defect somewhere.

 

[Muffled]

I believe none of them teach the whole truth.

I agree that one may do things that causes him to suffer.

It is also true that other people can do things that cause us to suffer.

In addition God can do things to cause us to suffer.

Lastly being in the body is a cause of suffering.

I believe the first three will be removed when we receive eternal life and the suffering of aging & death will be removed from the body only leaving us a bruise if we bump into a tree too hard.

 

[Muffled]

After reading all of this, I'd pick Buddhism (from what I gather-suffering from actions and past/present/future doesn't exist) and its close-shoots. But it looks like either these descriptions are completely off (except for yours, being the OP). Maybe a Hindu next. Jewish probably. I do like how JW believe if you're not with christ you're dead as a doornail. It's a lot better than some other christian denominations that believe in some sort of an afterlife... I'm not sure of Muslims though.

Best to ask the practitioners-hope some reply.

I do not believe in the Buddhist idea of eliminating suffering. I believe it means the person loses his life. It is like the person who locks himself in his room for fear of what will happen if he goes outside. That person loses his life. However Jesus said that you have to lose your life in order to gain it.
Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

I believe the way it works in Christianity is that the person gives his life to Jesus and as a result it becomes more abundant.
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

 

[Muffled]

Choose none of them is always an option

The truth is that physical suffering is part of chemical decomposition and has no inherent purpose

I believe that is a partial truth and not an eternal one.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure if there was a valid reason, I'm just not convinced that God trying to prove a point with an alleged satan is a valid reason for allowing animals etc to suffer.

What law did the animals disobey to deserve their suffering? Animals simply follow their natural inclinations, I don't see why they are reaping what they sow by being the way nature made them.

Christians do not have an answer as to why animals have to suffer and die, and neither do Baha'is, and their answers as to why humans have to suffer are flimsy at best, as well as illogical.

 

[Truthseeker]

God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

Who says that God sends trials to His servants? Don't we have enough trials without God sending more?

God is all-powerful, but I don't know about ordering all things in the sense of all things are inevitable and deterministic. I think you agree with this. He does not order things in the agency of humans doing things to others because humans have free will to some extent. Those humans cause some trials, the rest of the order of God cause other trials.

(b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!

This is another kind of suffering but it is not ALL the other suffering that exists in this world. What about atheists who do not even believe in God? Mind you, I have no problem suffering in the path of God, doing God’s work, but that is not the kind of suffering I have endured nor is my suffering the kind he mentioned above (the consequences of my own actions). No, my suffering is of a third category not listed here, but Abdu’l-Baha did cover that in another passage:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way.

Yes, I think so.

Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

I do not believe that is true at all. I know many Baha’is who have hardly suffered at all in life, especially compared to me, and I consider them much more spiritual than I am (although ultimately only God can judge that). Blossoms? I do not have any blossoms; I suffered so much emotionally I was never even able to have children! Give me a break.

Perhaps He means suffer most in the path of God? Hard to tell if you take this quote in isolation, and consider that this is something that something Abdu'l-Baha didn't write, but said in a meeting in Paris, was translated on the spot, and written down later perhaps from memory.

I don't think you can take it literally that inevitably the "plant most pruned by the gardeners is the one which...will have the most beautiful blossoms, etc"

It depends, in my opinion, in the response of the person suffering in part. Does he Turn to God? Does he get mad at God? Does he struggle to improve his response to his suffering and trials?

Perhaps this is an inadequate response.

Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.

That is easy to say if you are not the one facing constant tests, so much so that you are so immobilized you cannot even serve your own faith.

Abdu'l-Baha faced constant tests also. I don't know where "Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance" comes from. That's hard to understand. I try to see it as an instance of the effect of Abdu'l-Baha saying this orally, not writing it down, and being inaccurately conveyed to us. Also, I would need to consult other Writings by Abdu'l-Baha because at times all of the Writings need to be considered as a whole, not taken in isolation. At times, a Writing seems illogical or unreasonable, but the Writings if taken as a whole the seeming unreasonableness resolves itself. I've had the problem sometimes myself of having doubts because I didn't consider them as a whole.

Clearly, suffering is not even close to being equally distributed and that is my primary complaint because I view that as an injustice, and God is supposed to be just.

Is it about justice or mercy? God is not equally merciful to people, that has nothing to do with being equally just.

I just do an analysis of this. Here it is:

O ye loved ones of God! Is there any giver save God? He singleth out for His mercy whomsoever He willeth. Erelong will He open before you the gates of His knowledge and fill up your hearts with His love. He will cheer your souls with the gentle winds of His holiness and make bright your faces with the splendors of His lights, and exalt the memory of you amongst all peoples. Your Lord is verily the Compassionate, the Merciful.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá", 157.3


Abdu'l-Baha says He singleth out for His mercy whomsoever He willeth. This implies that different people receive different amounts of mercy. This is not injustice because it is not about people receiving their just deserts, but about mercy. There is a parable by Christ that implies the same thing. My poor memory is preventing me from finding this parable. I believe there is karma in the Baha'i Faith, but God changes the reward or punishment that karma would provide a person through His mercy.

Here is the parable:

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew, "The Gospel of Matthew - ευαγγέλιο του Ματθαίου", 20:1

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not believe in the Buddhist idea of eliminating suffering. I believe it means the person loses his life. It is like the person who locks himself in his room for fear of what will happen if he goes outside. That person loses his life. However Jesus said that you have to lose your life in order to gain it.
Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

I believe the way it works in Christianity is that the person gives his life to Jesus and as a result it becomes more abundant.
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

I don't think that's how Buddhist work. It's more what you do affects/has been affected/will affect and contribute to suffering (attachments good and bad) in the present. Relieving suffering is not to attach oneself to one's pain, and not to interpret that pain as you who suffers.

Since there is nothing fixed (no soul) there's no suffering to attach to. It's an illusion. After "years" of mental cultivation through good action and Practice you realize there is no you. Suffering is an illusion. As for the end state of being (not destination) of a Buddhist I don't know. I read he said not to focus on the future just today.

So you don't need to die on the cross. The responsibility, forgiveness, your attributions to mental clarity is from your actions. No one to take your sins since there is no "end punishment" just life's long self growth.

That's better than blood sacrifice. Id never have a stranger to die for my bad actions.

 

[Marcion]

God has designed the universe in such a way that consciousness is crudified into mind and matter and at a certain point individual centers of consciousness start to liberate their bondage to matter and mind through the process of experiencing clash and cohesion.

Individual centers of consciousness within living beings are born with the ability to experience attraction, pleasure and pain.
Without pain or suffering a life form would not be able to survive for long because it would happily get severely wounded or get itself eaten.

So suffering is a part of how nature works, how living beings manage to survive.
But experiencing pleasure or pain is also something that is tied to the feeling of self. Without having any sense of self, pleasure or pain would not be experienced as such.

So the goal in life is not to escape from pain or suffering but to transcend the sense of self (I-feeling) and go beyond pleasure and pain, to make them meaningless.

Through our personal karma we are from birth burdened with loads of potential experiences of pleasure and pain.
In a better path or set of spiritual practices we can maximize the expression or undergoing of all these potential pleasurable or painful reactions to our past actions of many lives without adding new ones.

Buddhism emphasizes the need to escape from suffering, but suffering is not the essence or starting point of life, the essence of life is that all life is by nature headed for and entitled to never ending bliss.
Christianity stresses that we suffer because we are essentially sinners.
It is a very bad practice to stress that you are full of sins (so you think so you will become).

 

[MonkeyFire]

When seeking God people try and give some sort of great reason behind our pain and suffering in order to validate their faith, in my humble opinion I give them no reason, and I just let it go, as there is nothing keeping it here anymore, and its wise to be happy. There is no reason for suffering... the only reason for this world is for to occur once and gain God's respect.

 

[swanlake]

Why Does God permit Suffering?

Before answering this question, I’d like to share my beliefs as to why / how suffering started and why God permits suffering to go on for so long.

It is written in the Genesis account, chapter two, that God made Adam and Eve perfect in mind and body, that animals to be in subjection to them/ take care of them, to take care of the earth / transform it into a paradise and to procreate. God did not micromanage Adam and Eve but in order to benefit, the gift of free will was to be used in the right way (Isaiah 48:17).

God gave only one restriction!

Not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge which belonged to him.

Why and how suffering started....
Genesis chapter 3 explains.
An angel from heaven left his dwelling place and deceived Eve (cf. Revelation 12:9, “the original serpent”), Eve then persuades Adam, and both use their free will, the gift from God, to disobey. The first lie, deceit, disobedience, independence from God started a chain reaction which ends up with worldwide problems and death for all mankind (Romans 5:12).

Why does God permit everything to go on for so long?

Sovereignty - God’s Sovereignty is the main issue. His right to rule had been, and is still being, challenged.

Satan, an intelligent, unseen person (angel) has been controlling this world.
The Bible is clear on this:
1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9
Satan tempted Jesus Christ, God’s son. Matthew 4 1, 8-10
Could Satan offer Jesus anything if he didn’t control it?
2 Corinthians 4:4 calls Satan “the god of this system of things.”

Allowing enough time to pass and for humans to try all types of political, social, economic, and religious systems apart from God’s guidance, human history shows that suffering has been on the increase (2 Timothy 3 1-5, 13).

Mankind is unable to solve today’s world problems. Jeremiah 10:23

Why Does God Permit Suffering?

To settle the question of Sovereignty!

Suffering Is Near It’s End! Soon, God, called the Most High at Psalms 83:18, will step in (Daniel 2:44), and every hurtful thing will be gone and will never be repeated (Revelation 21:3-4)! (Isn’t that what Christians have been taught to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer? “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth” at Matthew 6:9-10?) Then, everyone will be granted everlasting life and will see and experience Jehovah God’s justice, wisdom, power and Love.

 

[Deeje]

The fact remains that while we are redeemed we remain subject to suffering.

This is true, so what are we waiting for? What will bring an end to suffering? Why has it taken so long for the suffering to come to a stop, since Christ redeemed us almost 2,000 years ago?

The good news is that in light of Christ no suffering need be accepted as meaningless. If we but trust in God. Because God always works for the greater good.

So is suffering a necessary part of this life, do you think? What greater good does it accomplish?

Suffering exists therefore suffering serves a good purpose. Catholics believe this purpose to be our sanctification.

So in order to be sanctified in God's eyes, suffering is necessary? What of those who have suffered so much more than others? How is that related to sanctification?

What of those who have led a relatively trouble-free life, free from suffering....and then they are taken by an accident......no suffering was involved in their instantaneous death......what then?

 

[Deeje]

Hinduism has many layered explanations and solutions. One solution does not suit all kinds of people.

...

So how does one become a Hindu if there is no set standard for what that means? What are "layers" exactly?

In Christianity, it was foretold that an apostasy (falling away) would occur, and because of this Christ's teachings were fragmented into what men thought Jesus taught, rather than allowing Jesus to speak for himself. It resulted in "branches" of something that had no branches in the first place. Is Hinduism the same? Was it the thoughts of men that introduced a similar fragmentation?

 

[Zaha Torte]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

He allows pain and suffering for the same reasons He allows pleasure and peace.

He has given Mankind our freedom to choose and gave us a time and space to act for ourselves to prove to Him and ourselves who/what we want to be.

 

[Deeje]

The idea that God, or karma, or some disembodied Justice, is punishing you for unspecified sins and offenses, is a guilt trip which Christianity seems to encourage─ penance as remedy, as it were. It's not a view I hold with.

Penance is a Catholic idea, absent from Christ's teaching. If people were leading a lifestyle that was out of harmony with the Creator's requirements, Jesus taught them how to turn that around so that they could be in line for the right destination, come judgment day. Their only 'penance' was "don't do that again"....prove to God that you care about what he says and try to live up to his moral and ethical standards. Not rocket science surely....?

There are only two roads, according to Jesus and we are all either on one or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) Only one leads to everlasting life...the other leads to everlasting death. Those are the only two choices we have. Is that a difficult concept?

And as was observed in ancient times ─ the saying attributed to Epicurus is an example ─ suffering shows that EITHER God is omnipotent but indifferent or malevolent, OR God is benevolent but not omnipotent OR God is neither benevolent or omnipotent.

Or that Epicurus was a dingbat who didn't have a clue who or what God was because he was too wrapped up in his own thinking. Its better to listen to Jesus IMO. There is no confusion there. "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" was never part of the Christian narrative.

But it's a problem unique to theology ─ take gods and dooms out of the picture and you remove the problem at the same time.

Take God and a purpose for our presence here, out of the picture and what do you have? No reason for our existence, no hope for the present, and no future to look forward to, except what is the hands of those in government....does that fill you with confidence?.......me either. I like what God is offering and I know he doesn't lie or make promises that he cannot keep.

To me, without God and a purpose to our being, there is this empty void that cannot be filled with anything else.

Meanwhile, suffering has been approached from many angles, philosophical, medical, political as well as religious. From the 5th century BCE the Stoics and their relatives the Cynics and the Epicureans, all thought of suffering as a state of mind rather than of body, and prescribed an altered mental approach, variations on the idea of putting aside self-pity and whining, instead changing what can be changed, bearing without complaint or fretting what can't be changed, and hoping to be smart enough to know which is which ─ you likely have a souvenir kitchen cloth that says the same thing.

Yes, and alcoholics have a motto.....it doesn't solve the problem of why there are problems.

After all the time that humans have lived on planet Earth as the supposedly highest form of intelligent life here, what have we accomplished....compared to what we have destroyed?
What evil is there in people that our intelligence and reasoning ability should have cancelled out by now?
Why are world leaders behaving like petulant children when nuclear weapons are their toys?

I for one am grateful that I have some answers.....I cannot live with "I dunno".

 

[Deeje]

Suffering is part of life. You just accept it and get over it. I don't know why humans have to complicate it by making it into some big philosophical issue.

Me either.

The Bible explains everything we need to know about all of it, yet people still walk about waving their arms at the futility of it all....and blaming God for their ignorance.

If you don't understand how it started.....what God has been doing to rectify the damage....and what he has in store for the future, then nothing will make a lick of sense.

 

[Deeje]

There are threads of commonality among the various religions. Temptation to sin (or do stupid things). Reincarnation (chance to get it right). Live right. Test faith.

Maybe the main God sent similar messages to various cultures? Perhaps the full message of God is found in the commonalities? Maybe bibles have been rewritten over the years, and we lost sight of God's true messages? Maybe we need to learn other religions, not seeking to debase them, but seeking to merge ideas while respecting their take on their religion?

Or maybe we just need to get to know the Creator and find out what we are doing here....

 

[Trailblazer]

God is all-powerful, but I don't know about ordering all things in the sense of all things are inevitable and deterministic. I think you agree with this. He does not order things in the agency of humans doing things to others because humans have free will to some extent. Those humans cause some trials, the rest of the order of God cause other trials.

I agree, and if that is true, why did Abdu’l-Baha say that God sends trials to His servants: “God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?”

Perhaps He means suffer most in the path of God? Hard to tell if you take this quote in isolation, and consider that this is something that something Abdu'l-Baha didn't write, but said in a meeting in Paris, was translated on the spot, and written down later perhaps from memory.

That’s good to know, so perhaps something was lost in the transcription and translation, and perhaps other Baha’is should stop telling me that God is sending me tests and that it si for my own good…. How can they know that?

I don't think you can take it literally that inevitably the "plant most pruned by the gardeners is the one which...will have the most beautiful blossoms, etc"

So maybe that was kind of like a parable of Jesus where He uses symbology and analogy. It applies to some people but not all.

It depends, in my opinion, in the response of the person suffering in part. Does he Turn to God? Does he get mad at God? Does he struggle to improve his response to his suffering and trials?
Perhaps this is an inadequate response.

Yes, I believe we have to struggle to have the right attitude towards God, and if I do not think God sends suffering then I can deal with it better… My suffering is hard enough to bear without me thinking God is sending it on purpose, but that is a general Baha’i attitude, because of Abdu’l-Baha.

Abdu'l-Baha faced constant tests also. I don't know where "Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance" comes from. That's hard to understand. I try to see it as an instance of the effect of Abdu'l-Baha saying this orally, not writing it down, and being inaccurately conveyed to us. Also, I would need to consult other Writings by Abdu'l-Baha because at times all of the Writings need to be considered as a whole, not taken in isolation. At times, a Writing seems illogical or unreasonable, but the Writings if taken as a whole the seeming unreasonableness resolves itself. I've had the problem sometimes myself of having doubts because I didn't consider them as a whole.

I do not think it is fair to compare Abdu’l-Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah and the Centre of His Covenant, to ordinary people. Obviously, Abdu’l-Baha knew what Baha’u’llah knew about the spiritual world (afterlife). That itself is no small thing and it is not something we are privy to so we have to rely on faith.

Yes, that is true, some of the Writings taken in isolation don’t tell thewhole story, so we have to look at more Writings. I remember Dale used to tell me that.

Is it about justice or mercy? God is not equally merciful to people, that has nothing to do with being equally just.

I just do an analysis of this. Here it is:

O ye loved ones of God! Is there any giver save God? He singleth out for His mercy whomsoever He willeth. Erelong will He open before you the gates of His knowledge and fill up your hearts with His love. He will cheer your souls with the gentle winds of His holiness and make bright your faces with the splendors of His lights, and exalt the memory of you amongst all peoples. Your Lord is verily the Compassionate, the Merciful.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá", 157.3

Abdu'l-Baha says He singleth out for His mercy whomsoever He willeth. This implies that different people receive different amounts of mercy. This is not injustice because it is not about people receiving their just deserts, but about mercy. There is a parable by Christ that implies the same thing. My poor memory is preventing me from finding this parable. I believe there is karma in the Baha'i Faith, but God changes the reward or punishment that karma would provide a person through His mercy.

Here is the parable:

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew, "The Gospel of Matthew - ευαγγέλιο του Ματθαίου", 20:1

You said: "Abdu'l-Baha says He singleth out for His mercy whomsoever He willeth. This implies that different people receive different amounts of mercy. This is not injustice because it is not about people receiving their just deserts, but about mercy."

Okay, I see the difference now, but it is unfair for God to single people out for mercy even if they do not deserve the mercy and give people different amounts of mercy. Can’t you see how that is unfair, or do you just accept that God does whatever He wills?

But do you see how I got justice mixed up with mercy? If God is not equitable in how He hands out mercy, I see that as unjust. So does the definition of justice below only apply to humans, and God does not have to be equitable? God is said to be a just God.... What then is God's justice?

What is the true definition of justice?

the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice. the moral principle determining just conduct.

Justice | Definition of Justice at Dictionary.com

 

[blü 2]

Their only 'penance' was "don't do that again"....prove to God that you care about what he says and try to live up to his moral and ethical standards. Not rocket science surely....?

I don't hold with invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, murderous religious intolerance, subjugation of women, slavery and so on, all of which God approves in the bible, so I'll just have to take my chances.

There are only two roads, according to Jesus and we are all either on one or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) Only one leads to everlasting life...the other leads to everlasting death. Those are the only two choices we have. Is that a difficult concept?

I'd say with considerable confidence that only one of the choices accurately reflects reality.

Or that Epicurus was a dingbat who didn't have a clue who or what God was because he was too wrapped up in his own thinking.

If I see a baby being brutally assaulted, or a person drowning, or someone who hasn't noticed a speeding bus and is about to step off the sidewalk, and there's something I can do about it, I do it. Given there' a god, God just sits on [his] hands and lets it happen. Epicurus' point is well made ─ it's not dismissed by the idea that if you listen to Jesus, things will be better.

"Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" was never part of the Christian narrative.

The bible also points out, though not in the Christian part, that to every thing there is a season, and that includes eating, drinking, and making merry.

Take God and a purpose in our presence here, out of the picture and what do you have? No reason for our existence

The reason for our existence is that nature's imperative for all living things is, Survive long enough to breed! And the only reason you and I are here is because every single one of our ancestors did exactly that, right back for more than 3.5 billion years. Look at the bodies of the male and female human, look at how societies are organized, look at the universality of ceremonies for marriage, birth, coming of age and death ─ it's all about the breeding; and because we have big brains, we can work on our incidental purposes and pleasures against that background.

no hope for the present

I'm sad to hear that. Good luck!

To me, without God and a purpose to our being, there is this empty void that cannot be filled with anything else.

It's good to live in a free country.

After all the time that humans have lived on planet Earth as the supposedly highest form of intelligent life here, what have we accomplished .... compared to what we have destroyed?

We've got on with the surviving and breeding, just as nature equipped us to do.

Are we too stupid to act before like the frog we boil to death? Stay tuned ...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And as was observed in ancient times ─ the saying attributed to Epicurus is an example ─ suffering shows that EITHER God is omnipotent but indifferent or malevolent, OR God is benevolent but not omnipotent OR God is neither benevolent or omnipotent.

Or.... Jehovah God is patiently allowing the issue of sovereignty, raised in Genesis 3, to be fully settled before He reassumes control.

This is something Epicurus had no knowledge of.