Why Does God permit Suffering?

[Glaurung]

This is true, so what are we waiting for? What will bring an end to suffering? Why has it taken so long for the suffering to come to a stop, since Christ redeemed us almost 2,000 years ago?

Suffering is innate to this world. It will not end until the second coming.

So is suffering a necessary part of this life, do you think? What greater good does it accomplish?

Yes. Suffering is innate to this life. It is innate to Christian life too. The narrow road, filled with thorns and sharp rocks. Our job here is to grow in virtue thereby making us more pleasing to God. If you want the crown of Heaven you must first carry the cross of this life. That said, you can reduce suffering by living a good and virtuous life. As sin has a way of catching up to people in unpleasant ways sooner or later.

So in order to be sanctified in God's eyes, suffering is necessary? What of those who have suffered so much more than others? How is that related to sanctification?

What of those who have led a relatively trouble-free life, free from suffering....and then they are taken by an accident......no suffering was involved in their instantaneous death......what then?

To be sanctified in God's eyes is to be in a state of grace. (The state of a baptized Christian free from mortal sin). This alone is sufficient for salvation. However you can grow in sanctification (and merit even greater treasures in Heaven) by the practice of the virtues. The trails and tribulations inherent in this life provide the opportunity to do exactly that. If the virtues came easy then they would not merit much. Suffering therefore is not valuable in and of itself. But it can be valuable in that it provides opportunities for Christian heroism.

As to why some people have life harder than others, this is a mystery of divine providence. It is in any case important to pray for the strength to endure whatever trials it pleases God to send you. It is when God seems at his most distant in our lives that he is often the closest.

 

[atanu]

So how does one become a Hindu if there is no set standard for what that means? What are "layers" exactly?

The Truth is one but sages call It by different names. The layered approach allows 4 main kinds of practices and these practices encompass the full spectrum from dualism to non-dualism.

In Christianity, it was foretold that an apostasy (falling away) would occur, and because of this Christ's teachings were fragmented into what men thought Jesus taught, rather than allowing Jesus to speak for himself. It resulted in "branches" of something that had no branches in the first place. Is Hinduism the same? Was it the thoughts of men that introduced a similar fragmentation?

The mind is a limited reflection of infinite consciousness and it is inevitable that thoughts will be very diverse. But if the limited ego-mind comes to accept the one Truth and surrenders the ego there cannot be any hindrance.

The idea "My path alone is the correct one" comes from ego. 'Thy Will be done' is the answer.
...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Look at the bodies of the male and female human, look at how societies are organized, look at the universality of ceremonies for marriage....

These are things that argue against evolution....CD evolution, that is....and for a Creator!
For the examples you gave:
1) Sexual reproduction evolved from asexual reproduction? Why? It's much more messy, and results in less offspring.
2) Organization by humans is simply another way that reveals we are "made in [His] image."
3) Yes, marriage is "universal". How does this happen, in disparate unrelated cultures?
If evolution was ultimately the force behind it, so much so that it became commonplace among all cultures....why is it being abandoned today? Are human offspring evolving to need less family structure?
Really, you give evolution too much influential power.

 

[blü 2]

Or.... Jehovah God is patiently allowing the issue of sovereignty, raised in Genesis 3, to be fully settled before He reassumes control.

This is something Epicurus had no knowledge of.

To be honest, old friend, I have my doubts about that.

People say and do, but God neither says nor does. The world behaves exactly as if God exists only as a concept in individual brains.

Not that this is automatically a bad thing, but ...

 

[blü 2]

These are things that argue against evolution....CD evolution, that is....and for a Creator!

Wouldn't it be simpler to argue that God chose evolution as [his] method for generating species? Without that, I'm not sure against evolution is the same thing as for divine creation.

1) Sexual reproduction evolved from asexual reproduction? Why? It's much more messy, and results in less offspring.

It keeps mixing as well as matching genes. The fact that it's found throughout the animal world indicates that for larger life forms at least, it's better than alternatives. The reason seems to be that variety of gene mix is the best preparation for changes in conditions.

And as for less offspring, what about all those fish, those insects, that multiply in huge numbers at a time? Or those molluscs, some of which can do the hermaphrodite thing into the bargain?

2) Organization by humans is simply another way that reveals we are "made in [His] image."

I'm not sure how we could go about demonstrating that this is an accurate statement about reality.

3) Yes, marriage is "universal". How does this happen, in disparate unrelated cultures?

Because the human infant, unlike just about any other species, must be cared for after it's born, and that care is essential to its survival for the first four or five years. Thus the human bonding response, which employs a variety of hormones not least oxytocin, keeps the parents together in distinct roles, the female as carer and nurturer, the male as guardian and provider.

If evolution was ultimately the force behind it, so much so that it became commonplace among all cultures....why is it being abandoned today? Are human offspring evolving to need less family structure?

That's only true in the first world, really. And human bonding, or so I remember reading somewhere, tends to have a natural life of about seven years, after which its survival may depend on mutual advantage for further children, financial or similar survival reasons.

Really, you give evolution too much influential power.

The entirety of our flesh, bones, blood, nerves, organs, hormones, the onset of adolescence and menopause, our instincts, abilities, appetites and aversions, brain functions including language, reason, memory, judgment, deciding, the lot, are all but all the product of evolution. So too the provision of saliva to the mouth, when eating and when not, the physiology of sexual response, the getting of goose bumps, the water and salt levels of the blood and cells, the operations of the bowels, the tuning of the heart rate to one's physical exertion, all the chemicals of the liver and their relation to digestion and health, the release of insulin in response to need, the production of blood cells in the marrow, all down to evolution. The conscious brain is routinely the last to know what the brain's doing; it isn't my conscious brain that's selecting and organizing these ideas, these words, editing them for social as well as literal effect, causing my fingers to type them, and supervising the result. It isn't my conscious brain that reminds me to buy some washing powder, or that it's my granddaughter's birthday, or makes me look at the clock to see if I'm due to leave for an appointment, or ... on and on. All down to evolution.

And me, I wouldn't be without it.

 

[Deeje]

what is your interpretation of "original sin"

I assure you that its not...."God being willing to have innocent people, including children and some unborn through miscarriages, to die because centuries ago some sinned. This turns God into a genocidal maniac."

If one is going to treat God with such disrespect, when he has clearly explained the circumstances of that "original sin" in his word, and how he was going to undo the damage caused by it, and send a rescuer to save all of the victims who want to obey him......then is there any avenue left for one to actually find the truth? Eyes, ears and hearts are closed.

There is nothing like creating your own incorrect scenario and then blaming God for something that was not his fault. Put the blame where it lies.

"The original sin" was committed by Adam when he directly violated a clearly stated law with a clearly stated penalty. There was a temptation based on a lie and the woman fell for it....but Adam didn't. Did someone force him to join his wife in rebellion? Did he have a choice?
He most certainly did....and he chose to condemn all his future children, to side with her.

How the death penalty was to be implemented was not stated, but apparently it caused some kind of a mutation in their DNA, because it became an inheritable physical defect, (Romans 5:12) causing the human body to begin to die, like an appliance unplugged from its power source. It compromised their immune system somehow, and now sin led to aging, sickness and inevitable death from many different causes.

The Bible likens it to a large debt, incurred by a father and inherited by his children who are as unable to pay the debt as he is. Unless someone came to pay the debt and cancel it, it would just go on accumulating generation after generation.

Fortunately God made provision for the debt to be paid and Adam's children to be released from it. That is called 'redemption'....the payment of an agreed amount to release a captive from slavery to that debt. All who have died will be returned to life because of that payment. (John 5:28-29)

Is there any reason to think that we aren't actually robots following programming and whatever we do is what our programming and various influences led us to do based on our programming?

Yes....if we were simply pre-programmed robots, the law in Eden that carried the death penalty depended on a choice. Obey and live...disobey and die. Robots don't make choices. Free will beings do.
Like the animals, we do have some parts of our nature that are instinctive because they are necessary to ensure reproduction and the perpetuation of our species...but by and large, we make our choices based on information that is processed by our brain.

That we desire not to suffer, does that really indicate that we weren't "meant" to?

There is 'good' pain and 'bad' pain.....we are created to feel pain, but only that which will prevent us touching something hot, or indicating that we have injured ourselves and need medical treatment. It stops us walking on a broken leg or using a broken arm and doing more damage. It is necessary and beneficial.

The bad pain is that which results from sickness, deformities and communicable diseases due to the breakdown of our bodies. Our immune systems are severely compromised as this latest pandemic has indicated.
We have overused antibiotics and invited bacteria and viruses to adapt to this medicine and by-pass its affects. We are living longer, but not better.

Is the God that you may imagine or prefer, really the one that is apparent or which ought to be trusted in and worshipped? Could you comceive of something greater, perhaps the force which determines what occurs if God is not that force but follows after its decisions and watches as things, due to the decisions of the greater power, go as God does not wish or will?

You'll have to explain that one....

I'm not sure any of this reasoning is making too much sense to me overall.

And that is no surprise. If you have no time for God, then what makes you think that he has time for you? You have already judged him...but perhaps he has already judged you as well?
I wish you knew the God I know.....I'm sure you would not be so harsh in your judgment. Remember that old saying about "biting the hand that feeds you"?

Deuteronomy 32:39
Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

Read it again carefully.....there is no God besides the God of the Bible.....he can restore life as easily as he can take it.....and if there is no one who can deliver you from his hand....what wisdom is there in railing against the one in whose hands your destiny lies?
Do you invite him to save your life or take it? Which would you prefer?

 

[blü 2]

"The original sin" was committed by Adam when he directly violated a clearly stated law with a clearly stated penalty.

Actually, Genesis says nothing of the kind.

God gives Adam a warning, not a command: Genesis 2:16"You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

There was a temptation based on a lie and the woman fell for it

The snake said, 3:4 "You will not die.5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

No sign of a lie in any of that. It's exactly what happens.

....but Adam didn't.

Did someone force him to join his wife in rebellion? Did he have a choice?

At the time Eve ate the fruit, she had no knowledge of good and evil, because God had expressly denied this knowledge to her and to Adam. Exactly the same is true of Adam at the time he ate the fruit. Without knowledge of good and evil, it was impossible for either of them to form the intention to sin.

And the story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, or anything of the kind. Not a word, not a hint.

He most certainly did....and he chose to condemn all his future children, to side with her.

No, for exactly the same reason, neither Adam nor Eve could have formed an intention to do wrong.

Nor had God made any threat about their future children. None of that is in the story.

How the death penalty was to be implemented was not stated

The very direct inference is that the fruit was poison, since it would cause the eater to die the same day,

apparently it caused some kind of a mutation in their DNA, because it became an inheritable physical defect

No, they were always going to die. We'll come to the evidence for that in a moment.

(Romans 5:12)

Yes, but Paul says things that aren't in the story. He wishes a meaning on it that, as I'm carefully pointing out to you, simply isn't there.

causing the human body to begin to die, like an appliance unplugged from its power source. It compromised their immune system somehow, and now sin led to aging, sickness and inevitable death from many different causes.

Nope, that isn't there either. In fact it's directly contradicted by God.

Why did God expel Adam and Eve from the Garden? He gives his reasons ─ and they're the only reasons:

3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"─ 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
​

It couldn't be plainer ─ God always intended them to die, and kicked them out of the Garden to make sure they couldn't escape that fate by eating from the tree of life.

The Bible likens it to a large debt, incurred by a father and inherited by his children who are as unable to pay the debt as he is.

This is expressly denied in Ezekiel 18 (which may indicate how little time Paul spent reading Hebrew scripture). The whole of the chapter deals with the fact that sin can't be inherited, and we can use verse 20 as a sample:

The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

Okay?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.

Greetings. This information is not correct. At least it should not be listed as "Jewish Tradition."

For example,

1. Most Jewish sources provide a whole laundry list of why suffering takes place. What you have listed is not a summary of them. I.e. it clear from Jewish sources that suffering is not all because of one's actions.
2. The concept of the resurrection is not defined as "after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered."
3. What exactly are you considering to be Kabbalistic Judaism? Reincarnation is not found in all of them. Further, the concepts that exist among some don't claim that "a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors."

You may be better to provide the exact Jewish sources that make these statements you wrote because what you have listed is not from any overall Jewish tradition. It could also be better to just leave out the Jewish tradition since what you provided is not an accurate summary of what is common among the most authoratative Jewish traditional sources.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Suffering is innate to this world. It will not end until the second coming.
However you can grow in sanctification (and merit even greater treasures in Heaven) by the practice of the virtues.

Or perhaps the next creation. Do you mean that by second coming?
Ah, so you have different classes even in heaven! One for those who have obtained salvation (by accepting Jesus as God and Son of God) and greater facilities to those who have practiced virtues?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Me either.

The Bible explains everything we need to know about all of it, yet people still walk about waving their arms at the futility of it all....and blaming God for their ignorance.

If you don't understand how it started.....what God has been doing to rectify the damage....and what he has in store for the future, then nothing will make a lick of sense.

I don't need the Bible to understand suffering. It's just a fact of nature and having living creatures competing for resources, interacting and also because of the way the natural world functions (natural disasters, disease, famine, etc.). The world is not "broken" or whatever. It works like it always has and that won't change. I go by what can be observed and experienced, not what some people wrote down millennia ago.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wouldn't it be simpler to argue that God chose evolution as [his] method for generating species? Without that, I'm not sure against evolution is the same thing as for divine creation.
It keeps mixing as well as matching genes.
I'm not sure how we could go about demonstrating that this is an accurate statement about reality.
Because the human infant, unlike just about any other species, must be cared for after it's born, and that care is essential to its survival for the first four or five years.
That's only true in the first world, really.

"The entirety of our flesh, bones, blood, nerves, organs, hormones, the onset of adolescence and menopause, our instincts, abilities, appetites and aversions, brain functions including language, reason, memory, judgment, deciding, the lot, are all but all the product of evolution. So too the provision of saliva to the mouth, when eating and when not, the physiology of sexual response, the getting of goose bumps, the water and salt levels of the blood and cells, the operations of the bowels, the tuning of the heart rate to one's physical exertion, all the chemicals of the liver and their relation to digestion and health, the release of insulin in response to need, the production of blood cells in the marrow, all down to evolution. The conscious brain is routinely the last to know what the brain's doing; it isn't my conscious brain that's selecting and organizing these ideas, these words, editing them for social as well as literal effect, causing my fingers to type them, and supervising the result. It isn't my conscious brain that reminds me to buy some washing powder, or that it's my granddaughter's birthday, or makes me look at the clock to see if I'm due to leave for an appointment, or ... on and on. All down to evolution."

Blu2, the problem is that Adam, Eve and serpent cannot be fitted in evolution. What do we do with them?
Evolution affects even asexual reproduction. We are really product of that, passed through that stage.
Yeah, I too wonder!
Oh, no, Blu2. Other species also care for their infants for less or more time. And family system is not going to disappear whether in first world or third world.
Orangutans have a life-period of some 40 years and they get mother care for 6 years.
Nice long statement there. I appreciate.

 

[Glaurung]

Or perhaps the next creation. Do you mean that by second coming?

The second coming of Christ. Everyone will be resurrected and publicly judged. The world as we know it will be done away with.

Ah, so you have different classes even in heaven! One for those who have obtained salvation (by accepting Jesus as God and Son of God) and greater facilities to those who have practiced virtues?

According to the Catholic religion, you are made fit for salvation by being in a state of sanctifying grace. You cannot earn sanctifying grace. It is a supernatural gift that God alone can bestow. (Usually by baptism). Once in a state of sanctifying grace you can gain merit and thus greater reward in Heaven by good deeds and virtuous living.

So you're partly right in that not everyone will experience Heaven to the same degree. Some will receive a greater degree of it and others less all according to merit. Likewise the same in Hell. Some will suffer more than others based on the severity of their demerits with which they died.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Everyone will be resurrected and publicly judged.
.. and thus greater reward in Heaven by good deeds and virtuous living.

Many will go to eternal hell.
Fate of people like Hitler and criminals has not been decided, or has it been? They might have been baptized.
What is this greater reward? Could you kindly enlighten us so that we may aspire it?

 

[Glaurung]

Many will go to eternal hell.

If Scripture is to be believed, unfortunately yes.

Fate of people like Hitler and criminals has not been decided, or has it been? They might have been baptized.

Baptism does not guarantee final perseverance. You can lose sanctifying grace by mortal sin. Barring an act of perfect contrition the only assured way to regain sanctifying grace is though absolution by confession. Hitler may have been baptized, but if he died in unrepentant mortal sin (which is quite likely) then he would have gone to Hell.

What is this greater reward? Could you kindly enlighten us so that we may aspire it?

The reward is to see God and dwell with him forever. The more you merit the greater your capacity to experience the love of God will be.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ah, your previous post said that, but now I understand better. So, baptism does not ensure grace and heaven, not even of the lower kind. Good works are still necessary. So what is the value of baptism?
How does the capacity to experience more of God's love help? What do we do with all of God's love, when in life God permits suffering?

 

[1213]

...
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.
...

In Biblical point of view, suffering is, because people wanted to know evil. They rejected God and were expelled to this first death that is like Matrix. Here soul can learn through body what evil and suffering truly means. Luckily this is only a short lesson and nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. And those who become righteous, can have eternal life with God.

 

[Bird123]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

your quote:How do we know which path to choose?
My Answer: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!!

your quote:Which one teaches the truth?
My Answer: Truth is not taught. Truth is Discovered.

your quote:Is there a purpose to suffering?
My Answer:There is purpose to everything.


Pain is no more than an indication something is wrong. Pain is the condition that nudges one forward to resolution. If there were no troubles, pain, or adversity, we would all just sit back and enjoy the ride. How much would one learn sitting back, enjoying the ride without the forward movement to knowledge and a Higher Level?

Every view will never be the same. You might see suffering where others see a challenge. I might be suffering through a hard cold winter where a member of the polar bear club jumps naked into an icy lake to earn money for charity.

Who is the one suffering? It isn't the one taking action to better the world. Copy the polar bear man. If you see suffering, work and help others toward resolution.

There is enough food in the world to feed everyone. Why isn't everyone fed? Those who need to change and refuse hurt until they discover it is easier to change. Countries can print money for economies. They can print money to feed everyone. Why don't they? There is much left to learn.

In this multilevel classroom, there are lessons everywhere for people to learn. If one can see the adversity, one can take action.

Finally, there are wonderful souls who volunteer to go through great adversity in order that others learn, grow, and understand. The gift they send is Priceless. Just like the polar bear man jumping naked into the icy water on a freezing day, they will meet the challenge to move others forward to a Higher Level. After all, it's only pain and there are much more important things in life than mere pain.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Milton Platt]

What Some Believe

Hindus
view suffering as a consequence of a person’s actions, committed in either this life or a past one. A person can reach moksha—a release from the cycle of rebirths— through achieving a state of mind that is detached from temporal things.


Muslims
view suffering as both a punishment for sin and a test of faith. Tragedies are a reminder “to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need,” says Dr. Sayyid Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America.


Jewish tradition
holds that suffering results from one’s own actions. Some Jews say that there will be a resurrection, after which justice will be rendered to the innocent who suffered. Kabbalistic (mystical) Judaism teaches reincarnation, which gives a person repeated opportunities to atone for his errors.


Buddhists
believe that suffering is experienced over many lifetimes, a cycle of rebirths that continue until a person’s negative actions, emotions, and cravings cease. By means of wisdom, virtuous works, and mental discipline, a person can reach nirvana—a state in which all suffering has ceased.


Confucianists
attribute most suffering to “human failure and error,” says A Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Confucian doctrine recognizes that while suffering can be reduced through virtuous living, much of it is caused by “spiritual agencies beyond man’s control. In such cases, man must stoically accept the decrees of Fate.”


Some tribal religions
attribute suffering to witchcraft. According to these beliefs, witches can bring good luck or disaster and their activities can be tempered through various rituals. Thus, the rites and medicines of witch doctors are believed to counteract the work of witches when a person suffers from illness.


Christians
trace suffering to the sin of the first two humans, as described in the Bible book of Genesis. However, many denominations have embellished that teaching. For example, some Catholics say that personal suffering can be ‘offered up to God’ to request that he benefit the church or that he apply that suffering toward the salvation of someone else.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102020045

How do we know which path to choose?
Which one teaches the truth?
Is there a purpose to suffering?

I thin it all boils down to "sh*t happens". The universe is not interested in anyone's happiness.

 

[Deeje]

I don't hold with invasive wars, massacres of populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, murderous religious intolerance, subjugation of women, slavery and so on, all of which God approves in the bible, so I'll just have to take my chances.

I disagree with your evaluation. “Approves” doesn’t describe the motive behind God’s actions in any way IMO.

IMV, God acted in a time and place appropriate to the action he took. If God is the Creator, and all things are of his making, when humans separated themselves from him by their disobedience, for the most part, their activities (unless they were making an effort to obey his laws) never had his approval from then on.

By giving the humans freedom to serve their own interests without interference from him, he was basically giving them ‘enough rope’......they got what they asked for...but not necessarily what they wanted. Gaining a 'knowledge of good and evil' wasn’t what is was cracked up to be.

In order to bring his Messiah into the world, (the 'seed' he first mentioned in Genesis 3:15) he had to give him strict, identifying credentials. Since the Messiah had to be human, God chose one man, (his most faithful and trusted servant at the time) and promised him that his family line would be used to produce this “seed”.

The history of that nation was fraught with breaches of their covenant, made of their own free will at Mt Sinai. At times their encounters with foreign nations called for actions that sent a clear message not only to Israel’s enemies, but also to show them that their false gods were powerless.

I'd say with considerable confidence that only one of the choices accurately reflects reality.
If I see a baby being brutally assaulted, or a person drowning, or someone who hasn't noticed a speeding bus and is about to step off the sidewalk, and there's something I can do about it, I do it. Given there' a god, God just sits on [his] hands and lets it happen. Epicurus' point is well made ─ it's not dismissed by the idea that if you listen to Jesus, things will be better.

The reasons why there is no interference from God is because mankind had basically divorced themselves from him, in effect saying that they did not need him in their lives at all. By not preventing the inevitable tragedies, God is reinforcing the value of the lesson he is teaching all of us. If God stepped in to prevent these inevitable tragedies, the lesson is completely lost. He would be propping up the agenda of the opposition.

What people tend to forget is that God can reverse all of it, restore lost lives and take us back to the beginning, with all lessons learned and precedents set for all eternity to come....whether we will individually be there is up to us. Did we learn the lesson? What is our track record so far? How many are going to make it through? (Matthew 7:13-14)

When Israel kept God’s commands, he blessed them, but when they disobeyed him he abandoned them to ‘reap what they had sown’. This is the lesson of contrasts, reinforcing his original command in Eden. The way to stay alive and prosper, is to obey the Creator. If you disobey, he will withdraw from you and allow you to experience the results of your own choices. I see the wisdom of that in the big picture.
Don’t like it......? Too bad. We are in no position to question the Potter as to how he uses the clay that he brought into existence. He will do as he pleases with his own creation and he does not need our approval or sanction to carry out his own will. If you don’t want to live with him as your God, and comply with his requirements, then he will not force you to.....isn't that fair?

The bible also points out, though not in the Christian part, that to every thing there is a season, and that includes eating, drinking, and making merry.

Yes, we can still enjoy God’s creation, even if we are atheists.....for now.

The reason for our existence is that nature's imperative for all living things is, Survive long enough to breed! And the only reason you and I are here is because every single one of our ancestors did exactly that, right back for more than 3.5 billion years.

You can believe that if you wish, but humans are not pre-programmed animals, operating purely on instinct. The gulf between us and any other creature is too pronounced to be a product of mindless evolution, totally reliant on blind chance. Our moral sense is where we divide. But when science suggested that we humans are just more highly evolved animals, many began to believe them and their behavior began to reflect that belief....and here we are in 2020 and where is our moral sense? It's all but disappeared.

Look at the bodies of the male and female human, look at how societies are organized, look at the universality of ceremonies for marriage, birth, coming of age and death ─ it's all about the breeding; and because we have big brains, we can work on our incidental purposes and pleasures against that background.

Well, isn’t our purpose here to “fill the earth”? Of course it’s going to involve “breeding”....what is sad is to observe that the perfect gene pool we began with, is now a genetically polluted cess-pool?


[quote ]It's good to live in a free country.
We've got on with the surviving and breeding, just as nature equipped us to do.[/quote]

What “nature” gave us has been abused to the point where people are “breeding” often with no intent in their sexual activity to produce children....these often become an unwanted by product of their sex life and viewed a totally expendable....millions of unwanted humans are thrown in the trash every year. Those who do make it into the world often have no concept of “family” with some women having children to multiple fathers....they have no regard for morality....or the importance of role modelling and the impact that has on succeeding generations.

Humans alone need a sense of family belonging, on an intellectual level......being raised by the people who created us, in amongst brothers and sisters who form part of your family group, is filling that need in us to be part of a whole....we are not loners, but need to be an accepted part of a whole group. Blood ties are strong.....or they should be to give us identity.

Are we too stupid to act before like the frog we boil to death? Stay tuned ...

Gradualism is an effective weapon in perception management. But who is responsible for wanting to manage our perceptions?

There are many “frogs” in the world.....even those intellectuals who think that the water isn’t even warm....

 

[Deeje]

I thin it all boils down to "sh*t happens". The universe is not interested in anyone's happiness.

I guess if you are satisfied with that POV....then on with the defecation.... Do you enjoy rolling in it every day? I guess you don't even smell it anymore....?

The Universe is a creation with no interest in anyone....but I believe that the Creator of that Universe has great plans for it. If you don't want to be included, there is an escape clause....