Why Does God permit Suffering?

[Deeje]

Pain is no more than an indication something is wrong. Pain is the condition that nudges one forward to resolution. If there were no troubles, pain, or adversity, we would all just sit back and enjoy the ride. How much would one learn sitting back, enjoying the ride without the forward movement to knowledge and a Higher Level?

And yet if you go somewhere for a nice relaxing time away from the rat race, do you invite trouble to cause you pain in order to feel 'normal'?

Isn't a stress free environment a great adjunct to undistracted learning? Isn't interruption the greatest enemy of creativity and a seeking for knowledge? When life is interrupted by unnecessary suffering, do we just say.."oh that's life" and not wish it otherwise?

I don't need to eat or smell garbage to know it tastes bad.
I see at the very beginning of our tenancy on this Earth that pain and suffering were never part of the education that life was supposed to be here. Imagine, if it took us thousands of years to discover that there was a microscopic world unseen to the naked eye, and to discover the intricate details of even a snowflake.....what will thousands of years more reveal to us, about ourselves and the universe?

Every view will never be the same. You might see suffering where others see a challenge. I might be suffering through a hard cold winter where a member of the polar bear club jumps naked into an icy lake to earn money for charity.

I agree, our response to things will always depend on the personality of the individual. There will always be the 'helpers' and the 'helpless'.....who could not function without one another in this world. But what if this world is nothing like the world that God originally intended for us to live?
What if life was intended to be an endless, uninterrupted journey of discovery and creativity? Aren't we always satisfied when we put great effort into a project and it gets completed to our satisfaction? Imagine a life of endless projects.....and no pain or suffering to distract us in the pursuit?

Who is the one suffering? It isn't the one taking action to better the world. Copy the polar bear man. If you see suffering, work and help others toward resolution.

At this juncture in man's existence we see optimistic statements that fly in the face of man's experience. His track record is appalling. He is usually so self-focused that the plight of others is some distant problem that does not concern him. The wealthy use their riches to aggrandize themselves, whilst the poor continue to be exploited by them. What do you think it will take to stop this unending cycle of abuse?

There is enough food in the world to feed everyone. Why isn't everyone fed? Those who need to change and refuse hurt until they discover it is easier to change. Countries can print money for economies. They can print money to feed everyone. Why don't they? There is much left to learn.

Again, it means a change in humanity which, which according to experience, they can never rise to meet. The numbers of poor are increasing even in formerly wealthy nations. If a good deal of your population is homeless and depending on welfare just to scrape by, what is going to change that situation? This global problem requires a global solution....do you trust man to implement a global solution of that magnitude when they can't even achieve success in their own nations?
"Power corrupts" as we all know....imagine the corrupting influence of world power!

In this multilevel classroom, there are lessons everywhere for people to learn. If one can see the adversity, one can take action.

Who is taking action though? I see that you have optimism, but on what is it based?
Who is actually learning anything from the past in order not to repeat the mistakes in the future?

Humanity is groaning in the most awful pain.....who will end the suffering?
I believe the Bible tells us.

Romans 8:18-25....
"For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. . . . .24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance."

Endurance is what we need to get us through this very lengthy lesson. (Matthew 24:13)
Seeing suffering for what it is, and understanding what God is teaching us through it...that is the most important lesson for now. Without the hope of something better to come, we could never see the 'light at the end of the tunnel.'

This is what is clear to me....

 

[blü 2]

I disagree with your evaluation. “Approves” doesn’t describe the motive behind God’s actions in any way IMO.

If God orders something, we may take it [he] approves of it eg ─

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God sets out rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance – Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”​

and more, of course.

IMV, God acted in a time and place appropriate to the action he took. If God is the Creator, and all things are of his making, when humans separated themselves from him by their disobedience, for the most part, their activities (unless they were making an effort to obey his laws) never had his approval from then on.

With respect, that makes no historical sense. Yahweh doesn't exist in history till about 1500 BCE, long after the gods of Sumer, Egypt, Babylon and so on, and is the god of one particular district or tribe. [He] appears to have had a consort and then a divorce. There is simply no time before the Babylonian captivity where anyone claims Yahweh is the sole god, let alone that the other civilizations of the ancient world should worship [him] ─ that idea must wait more centuries for Paul to tear up the covenant of circumcision.

By giving the humans freedom to serve their own interests without interference from him, he was basically giving them ‘enough rope’......they got what they asked for...but not necessarily what they wanted. Gaining a 'knowledge of good and evil' wasn’t what is was cracked up to be.

That too is historically untenable. Humans had such freedoms thousands of years before there was a Yahweh.

In order to bring his Messiah into the world, (the 'seed' he first mentioned in Genesis 3:15)

That is also untenable, and not simply because the Garden story is folktale ─ the "seed" mentioned in 3:15 plainly means the descendants of Adam and Eve. Only Mark's Jesus fits that description. and not in an appropriate way. The Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are divine inseminations (the seed of God) and Paul's and John's Jesuses pre-exist in heaven with God (the creations of God).

The reasons why there is no interference from God is because mankind had basically divorced themselves from him

There never was a time when mankind as such ─ or even half of mankind ─ ever acknowledged one god, so there never was a time when "mankind" "divorced" themselves from [him]. I dare say there are many people in the world who've still never heard of [him].

What people tend to forget is that God can reverse all of it, restore lost lives and take us back to the beginning.

How, exactly?

 

[Deeje]

Actually, Genesis says nothing of the kind.

God gives Adam a warning, not a command: Genesis 2:16"You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

That's like saying the "Ten Commandments" were the "Ten Recommendations"....or the "Ten Warnings".

Giving the humans a command, with the death penalty as the consequence, is a law. An action + a penalty = a law.....not a recommendation. The warning was about breaking God's law....there was only one....and it was not even a difficult one.

The snake said, 3:4 "You will not die.5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

No sign of a lie in any of that. It's exactly what happens.

Actually, I do not know what translation you are using there but it is not accurate.

ESV..."but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

NASB..."but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

YLT..."and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'"

Tanakh..."But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

By leaving out the Hebrew word "day" (yowm) you omit a very important aspect of the sentence.

What does this word mean in Hebrew?

According to Strongs, "yowm" has a wide range of meanings....

1. "day, time, year
   1. day (as opposed to night)
   2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
      2. as a division of time
         1. a working day, a day's journey
   3. days, lifetime (pl.)
   4. time, period (general)
   5. year
   6. 
      temporal references
      1. today
      2. yesterday
      3. 
         tomorrow "
   H3117 - yowm - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (NASB)

It doesn't just mean a 24 hour day, but an undetermined period of time. So what is the the meaning of the phrase used in Genesis 2:17 if we broaden the application?

2 Peter 3:8..."However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."

So if a "day" to God can mean "a thousand years", what does the rest of Genesis tell us about the lifespan of humans back then before the flood?
Genesis 5 says...
"Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died."
"So all the days of Seth amounted to 912 years, and then he died."
"So all the days of Eʹnosh amounted to 905 years, and then he died."
"So all the days of Keʹnan amounted to 910 years, and then he died."
"So all the days of Jaʹred amounted to 962 years, and then he died."
"So all the days of Me·thuʹse·lah amounted to 969 years, and then he died."

Are you seeing a pattern here? If 1,000 years is a "day" to God, then no human has lived a full "day"....not even Methuselah who was the oldest living human.
There is more than one way to "die" in God's eyes you know. (Ephesians 2:1)

 

[Deeje]

At the time Eve ate the fruit, she had no knowledge of good and evil, because God had expressly denied this knowledge to her and to Adam. Exactly the same is true of Adam at the time he ate the fruit. Without knowledge of good and evil, it was impossible for either of them to form the intention to sin.

As perfect creations of God, made in his own image and likeness, these two were not encumbered by sin or a sinful nature. Both were direct creations of God and were without defect of any kind....however they were given an attribute that no other earthly creature possessed.....free will. But was their free will to be completely "free"? Could it be without problems?
The humans wanted to find out...or at least the woman did. But she was not the devil's target...Adam was.

There were two trees in the garden that were of note.....one was singled out as belonging to the Creator and they were instructed to eat of any other tree of the garden, except that one which God claimed as his own property. It was not theirs for the taking. Because they were free willed, God could not keep the fruit of that tree (representing his sovereign right to set limits to the boundaries of free will) from them, but could only make a law regarding their access to it. Who would eat a piece of fruit knowing that it meant death? Only someone deceived.....(1 Timothy 2:13-14)

Only by separating the humans from their God by disobedience, could the devil become their god and ruler. He actually employed this same trick down through Israel's history....using disobedience to separate Israel from their God's good graces, time and again. Even after 40 years of wandering in the wilderness (which itself was a punishment for disobedience) when about to enter the Promised Land, 23,000 Israelite men perished because they were tempted by the immoral women of Midian. Satan cannot force anyone to sin, but his tactics don't change....because he knows that temptation works.

And the story never mentions sin, original sin, the fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, or anything of the kind. Not a word, not a hint.

It was enough for them to know at that time because the Messiah was still a long way off and Israel never learned the lessons of their past. When Messiah arrived, then it was time for the "sacred secret" to be revealed.

Ephesians 1:8-10....
"This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him".

Romans 16:25-26...
"Now to Him who can make you firm according to the good news I declare and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the sacred secret that has been kept in silence for long-lasting times 26 but has now been made manifest and has been made known through the prophetic Scriptures among all the nations according to the command of the everlasting God to promote obedience by faith".

God has always revealed his will and purpose to his servants in increments....on a "need to know" basis.

No, for exactly the same reason, neither Adam nor Eve could have formed an intention to do wrong.

Nonsense. What was preventing them from knowing that a certain action merited death? They had a perfect intellect and they knew what obedience meant. They were not children. God had educated Adam for some time before he created his mate. This is why the devil targeted the woman...the youngest and least educated of the two. If he had tempted Adam, he would have got told where to go, because Adam knew better. He had already educated his wife regarding the tree that was God's property. She was not ignorant...she was willfully disobedient, convinced that the penalty did not apply.

Nor had God made any threat about their future children. None of that is in the story.

Did God need to make threats about their future? Wasn't the implications of what they had done driven home straight away? Their eviction was a shock to them, because they went from a life of ease to a life of hardship. They went from being able to pick a wide variety of fruit at will and with no effort, but now they were forced to "eat bread" for which they had to grow seed and grind the flour and cook their food. The earth itself was cursed on their account and it would take much back breaking work to yield enough to satisfy their hunger. Thorns and thistles would tear at their flesh as they attempted to clear any land for cultivation.
Not only that but child bearing was now to be painful for the woman.....and within one generation a murderer was produced. You think they knew nothing of the effects of sin?

If you read scripture as a whole, all these things come into focus. Unless you see the entire Bible as God's word and allow one part to explain the other parts, you will never see the whole picture.

To me the Bible is God's word...all of it......or none of it is. If the Creator of the universe has no power to preserve his word for future generations, then he's not much of a God, is he? Apparently he's not much of a god to you.....or you're not much of a man to him?

 

[Deeje]

The very direct inference is that the fruit was poison, since it would cause the eater to die the same day,

The inference you are taking is in error. There is nothing to suggest that the fruit itself was poisonous. The woman thought it looked delicious. It was the action of taking something that was not theirs...stealing from God in fact, that carried a high penalty. They had no right to take what belonged to God as if he were keeping something good from them. Had he ever given them cause to doubt his love and generosity towards them? Then along comes this interloper who makes a suggestion, planting a seed of doubt....and she falls for it.

Its what Adam did next that condemned the human race. "Sin entered the world" through the man, not the woman. (Romans 5:12) He chose to disobey, but for a completely different reason to her.

No, they were always going to die. We'll come to the evidence for that in a moment.

That is not what Genesis says. God did not create the humans to die. Everlasting life was meant to be enjoyed here on earth in paradise conditions. I believe you have completely misconstrued what God said....

Why did God expel Adam and Eve from the Garden? He gives his reasons ─ and they're the only reasons:

3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"─ 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
It couldn't be plainer ─ God always intended them to die, and kicked them out of the Garden to make sure they couldn't escape that fate by eating from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22-24...
"Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."

The tree of life had no prohibition at first....only the TKGE was off limits. The tree of life was meant to be partaken of freely, guaranteeing that mortal humans did not need to die, but could live forever as God first intended. Only when they had sinned did God bar the way to the tree of life so that no sinner could live forever on earth. How did you get a completely different meaning out of that scripture?
There was no natural cause of death in Eden.....death was only mentioned as a penalty for disobedience.

This is expressly denied in Ezekiel 18 (which may indicate how little time Paul spent reading Hebrew scripture). The whole of the chapter deals with the fact that sin can't be inherited, and we can use verse 20 as a sample:

The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel 18 is directed to Israel....it was for the offspring of Adam, not Adam himself who was one who had no excuse for his unrighteous course. He knew it too because look as you might, you will find no expression of remorse from either Adam or his wife....no sacrifice in asking forgiveness for their sin. They knew that their sin was unforgivable and that perfect beings do not make mistakes. They make calculated choices....a big difference to sinful mankind shackled by sin through no fault on their part.

Ezekiel 18 ends by saying...
"Therefore, I will judge each one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘Turn away, yes, turn completely away from all your transgressions, so that they will not be a stumbling block bringing guilt upon you. 31 Rid yourselves of all the transgressions you have committed and acquire a new heart and a new spirit, for why should you die, O house of Israel?’

32 “‘I do not take any pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘So turn back and live.’”

Adam could not "turn back and live" because his sin was far greater then anything his children could commit. Jesus came to pay Adam's children out of his debt. Adam paid for his own.

Okay?

Not even close I'm afraid....

 

[Deeje]

If God orders something, we may take it [he] approves of it eg ─

Genesis 22:9 – God orders a human sacrifice and Abraham takes him seriously (though it’s called off).

God sets out rules for buying, owning, disciplining, bonking, selling &c slaves in Exodus 20-21, 22:1-3, 23:12, 26-27, 32, Leviticus 19:20-22, 25:39-55, Deuteronomy 5:14, 15:12-18, 21:10-14, 23:15-16, 24:7. including, famously, how to sell your daughter.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

Judges 11 – God makes a deal with Jephthah, military victory in exchange for the human sacrifice of Jephthah’s daughter. This is done, and Jephthah is elevated to Judge (ruler) of Israel.

2 Samuel 21 – God refuses to call off the famine until seven sons of Saul have been killed by impalement to expiate Saul’s bloodguilt.

2 Kings 2:23 – God murders children for being rude to Elisha about his bald head.

Hosea 13:16 – God condones the ripping open of pregnant women as part of massacring one’s enemies.

Jonah 1:7-15 – God demands the sacrifice of Jonah (though it’s converted to whalery).

NT – God refuses to forgive sin until Jesus is made a sacrifice to him.

John 8:44 Religious intolerance – Jesus says to the Jews, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”​

and more, of course.
With respect, that makes no historical sense. Yahweh doesn't exist in history till about 1500 BCE, long after the gods of Sumer, Egypt, Babylon and so on, and is the god of one particular district or tribe. [He] appears to have had a consort and then a divorce. There is simply no time before the Babylonian captivity where anyone claims Yahweh is the sole god, let alone that the other civilizations of the ancient world should worship [him] ─ that idea must wait more centuries for Paul to tear up the covenant of circumcision.
That too is historically untenable. Humans had such freedoms thousands of years before there was a Yahweh.
That is also untenable, and not simply because the Garden story is folktale ─ the "seed" mentioned in 3:15 plainly means the descendants of Adam and Eve. Only Mark's Jesus fits that description. and not in an appropriate way. The Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are divine inseminations (the seed of God) and Paul's and John's Jesuses pre-exist in heaven with God (the creations of God).
There never was a time when mankind as such ─ or even half of mankind ─ ever acknowledged one god, so there never was a time when "mankind" "divorced" themselves from [him]. I dare say there are many people in the world who've still never heard of [him].
How, exactly?

Please yourself as to what you choose to believe...there is no way to turn your thinking around anyway.....but you can never say that no one tried to tell you, can you?

If we both have to answer to the same judge, then I am glad not to be in your shoes.....

 

[Salty Booger]

Physical Pain serves a purpose...

Emotional pain too.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Countries can print money for economies.

IMHO, you are an excellent economist.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If we both have to answer to the same judge, then I am glad not to be in your shoes.....

If there is a court, if there is a case, if there is a judge, too many ifs, Deeje.

 

[rational experiences]

Spiritually loving natural human.

Born by choice of human parents sex act.

Sick. Asks self a question why am I suffering.

You human self says human consciousness by organisation groups did a human act of evil in your past.

Spiritual self historic DNA memories. Reincarnation studies say yes historic memories of human exist.

Studied self.

Was never a scientist.

Never owned a life doing acts of evil against natural God. Earth history a mass evolution is cosmological space. O planet God he says. One body for one science. Gain building machine

I never changed the earth. Thought about preaching prophecy. And what was false.

Maths does not exist unless it is human agreed imposed. Only living humans as humans preach science.

Humans who historic owned harm to life. Groups. Status. Elite. Power mongers. Machine inventor humans.

Who preached all reasonings.

Natural self enquired about teaching says. False preaching. False answers. Destroyer human warning beliefs.

Statement medical. Said in same consciousness by living humans caring and loving other living humans suffering.

Science proven choice was human who harmed life. All original DNA parents equal. Same healthy human life. Same equal living conditions

Harmed by family human scientists.

Who said we deserved it. Yet only speak on behalf of a self belief.

We never deserved to be harmed. We were all innocent.

Medical teaching. Do not believe false information. Which is chosen human science history.

We never deserved life harm.

Our true teaching. Was not deserved.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

To be honest, old friend, I have my doubts about that.

People say and do, but God neither says nor does. The world behaves exactly as if God exists only as a concept in individual brains.

Not that this is automatically a bad thing, but ...

“People say and do, but God neither says nor does. The world behaves exactly as if God exists only as a concept in individual brains.”
That’s the point: He’s not stepping in right now...if He interfered every time something bad happened, the truth of man’s incompetent self-rule would never be realized, and settling of the issue would just get postponed!
But really, living by God’s standards as outlined in the Bible ... applying self-control, putting forth the effort to love one’s wife as oneself, trying to be kind & considerate to all ... is providing a satisfying life for me & my fellow worshippers of Jehovah. And I feel His help when I ask for it. It really does give one a certain peace inside, which results in a kind of satisfied happiness. (Philippians 4:6-7) And a clean conscience which so few attain.

So to those who try to genuinely live by Jehovah’s standards, the benefits are real.

But it’s like eating a fine meal: I can describe what the dishes taste like, but if you don’t partake of it yourself, you’ll never come to appreciate it.
— Psalms 34:8

Unfortunately, there are many bad-tasting dishes out there, filled w/ lies like Hellfire & such. 1 Corinthians 10:21

Take care, my friend.

 

[blü 2]

That's like saying the "Ten Commandments" were the "Ten Recommendations"....or the "Ten Warnings".

You're trying to say "Beware of the Dog" takes effect as legislation. Nope.

Giving the humans a command, with the death penalty as the consequence, is a law. An action + a penalty = a law.....not a recommendation.

The death's head on the bottle of poison is a warning + a consequence, and that's what God said to Adam. God did not say, for example, Don't eat the fruit BECAUSE I SAID SO. He said, Don't eat the fruit, it's not smart.

The warning was about breaking God's law....there was only one....and it was not even a difficult one.

That kind of warning is entirely ineffectual in the story. God has denied Adam the knowledge of good and evil so it's entirely pointless for God to curse Adam for doing something evil. [He] might as well curse Adam for stubbing his toe.

Without knowledge of good and evil, Adam can't intend to do evil, therefore Adam is incapable of sin.

Actually, I do not know what translation you are using there but it is not accurate.

Pay attention, class! As I said, I was citing Genesis 3:4, not Genesis 2:17, at that point.

What does this word mean in Hebrew?

According to all the translations handy to me, by people vastly more expert that I am, it means DAY, as in 24 hours.

As perfect creations of God, made in his own image and likeness, these two were not encumbered by sin or a sinful nature.

But whether they did or not, God denied them knowledge of good and evil. And without that, it was impossible for them to intend to do wrong, ie to sin.

The humans wanted to find out...or at least the woman did. But she was not the devil's target...Adam was.

There is no devil in the Garden story. The snake is said to be subtle, not malevolent or evil. And as I pointed out, the snake told no lies at all. Everything he said was true in a straightforward manner.

Because they were free willed

Nowhere in the bible to this point does it say Adam and Eve had free will. But whether they did or not, they did NOT have knowledge of good and evil.

(1 Timothy 2:13-14)

Please stop citing Christian attempts at retrofitting. Stay with the text of the Genesis story.

Only by separating the humans from their God by disobedience, could the devil become their god and ruler.

There is nothing of the kind in the Garden story ─ there was no disobedience for the same reason there was no sin. The snake spoke only the truth. And God's motives in expelling them from the Garden were entirely selfish (3:22-23).

Nonsense. What was preventing them from knowing that a certain action merited death?

Nowhere were they told anything merited death. They were warned not to eat the fruit because if they did they'd die. Does "Beware of the dog" mean your child merits being bitten?

They had a perfect intellect

Nowhere does it say they had a perfect intellect. Instead it says they didn't know the difference between good and evil.

and they knew what obedience meant.

If they did, they very clearly didn't know disobedience was wrong.

They were not children.

Not knowing good from evil (and by strong implication, nothing about copulation), they were very like small children.

Did God need to make threats about their future?

God made no such threats, so you have no basis for wishing them into the story.

Wasn't the implications of what they had done driven home straight away? Their eviction was a shock to them, because they went from a life of ease to a life of hardship.

Their eviction, as I carefully pointed out to you, was to stop them from eating of the tree of life, becoming immortal, and thereby becoming God's rivals. I repeat God's words ─

3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"─ 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
​

So now you can answer the question, What reason did God give for booting Adam and Eve out of Eden?

Not only that but child bearing was now to be painful for the woman ...

How utterly contemptible of God! What a stunted, twisted, vindictive, Trumplike morality is that!

If the Creator of the universe has no power to preserve his word for future generations, then he's not much of a God, is he?

There's not the slightest reason to think [he] exists anywhere but as a concept / thing imagined in individual brains. [He] has no definition, no description, appropriate to a real being, [he] never says or does, [his] morality is appalling ... but that doesn't excuse the fact that Christians want the Garden story to say things it simply doesn't say.

God did not create the humans to die. Everlasting life was meant to be enjoyed here on earth in paradise conditions.

Quote me the words in Genesis that say this.

The tree of life had no prohibition at first....only the TKGE was off limits. The tree of life was meant to be partaken of freely.

That follows from God's words to Adam, but clearly it had never happened, and God suddenly realized that if the humans BOTH knew good from evil AND were immortal, they'd be [his] rivals, not [his] pets. [He] says this explicitly.

There was no natural cause of death in Eden.....death was only mentioned as a penalty for disobedience.

So everything Adam and Eve ate passed through the gut alive? Extraordinary! Wow!

[Ezekiel 20: The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.]​

Ezekiel 18 is directed to Israel....it was for the offspring of Adam, not Adam himself who was one who had no excuse for his unrighteous course.

That's simply not what the text says. Read the whole chapter. SIN IS NOT INHERITABLE.

Adam could not "turn back and live" because his sin was far greater then anything his children could commit.

Nope. The snake told no lies. Eve was incapable of sin when she ate the fruit. Adam was incapable of sin when he ate the fruit.

And what Eve did, even if it's only in a story, was noble and immensely beneficial to humanity, allowing us to know good from evil, and we should have enormous gratitude and admiration for what she did, just as we appreciate the tale of Prometheus bringing us fire.

Jesus came to pay Adam's children out of his debt. Adam paid for his own.

No, that's just a Christian tale. Nothing of the kind is in the Garden story ─ as you can see if you actually read what it says.

And of course what it doesn't say ─ no mention of sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, spiritual death, death entering the world ─ nothing of that anywhere. It's simply NOT in the story.

 

[blü 2]

“People say and do, but God neither says nor does. The world behaves exactly as if God exists only as a concept in individual brains.”
That’s the point: He’s not stepping in right now...if He interfered every time something bad happened, the truth of man’s incompetent self-rule would never be realized, and settling of the issue would just get postponed!

Even a half-hour of [his] time on international TV every (let's say) Christmas would do wonders for [his] cred. But for reasons that entirely escape me, [he] doesn't seem concerned about [his] cred.

But really, living by God’s standards as outlined in the Bible ... applying self-control, putting forth the effort to love one’s wife as oneself, trying to be kind & considerate to all ... is providing a satisfying life for me & my fellow worshippers of Jehovah.

Here I think we're on solid ground. If people act towards others with decency, respect and inclusion, it doesn't matter what their views regarding religion are.

And I feel His help when I ask for it. It really does give one a certain peace inside, which results in a kind of satisfied happiness. (Philippians 4:6-7) And a clean conscience which so few attain.

That's a view I'm familiar with ─ my religious friends (on the very rare occasions it's a topic) say, "Works for me!" and leave it pretty much at that.

As for a clean conscience, well, it's an interesting idea, and meanwhile I try to do my best.

But it’s like eating a fine meal: I can describe what the dishes taste like, but if you don’t partake of it yourself, you’ll never come to appreciate it.

How shall I put it? ─ I haven't not tried it, but there are questions it doesn't answer, so it doesn't work for me.

Take care, my friend.

And you. All the best.

 

[Bird123]

And yet if you go somewhere for a nice relaxing time away from the rat race, do you invite trouble to cause you pain in order to feel 'normal'?

Isn't a stress free environment a great adjunct to undistracted learning? Isn't interruption the greatest enemy of creativity and a seeking for knowledge? When life is interrupted by unnecessary suffering, do we just say.."oh that's life" and not wish it otherwise?

I don't need to eat or smell garbage to know it tastes bad.
I see at the very beginning of our tenancy on this Earth that pain and suffering were never part of the education that life was supposed to be here. Imagine, if it took us thousands of years to discover that there was a microscopic world unseen to the naked eye, and to discover the intricate details of even a snowflake.....what will thousands of years more reveal to us, about ourselves and the universe?



I agree, our response to things will always depend on the personality of the individual. There will always be the 'helpers' and the 'helpless'.....who could not function without one another in this world. But what if this world is nothing like the world that God originally intended for us to live?
What if life was intended to be an endless, uninterrupted journey of discovery and creativity? Aren't we always satisfied when we put great effort into a project and it gets completed to our satisfaction? Imagine a life of endless projects.....and no pain or suffering to distract us in the pursuit?



At this juncture in man's existence we see optimistic statements that fly in the face of man's experience. His track record is appalling. He is usually so self-focused that the plight of others is some distant problem that does not concern him. The wealthy use their riches to aggrandize themselves, whilst the poor continue to be exploited by them. What do you think it will take to stop this unending cycle of abuse?



Again, it means a change in humanity which, which according to experience, they can never rise to meet. The numbers of poor are increasing even in formerly wealthy nations. If a good deal of your population is homeless and depending on welfare just to scrape by, what is going to change that situation? This global problem requires a global solution....do you trust man to implement a global solution of that magnitude when they can't even achieve success in their own nations?
"Power corrupts" as we all know....imagine the corrupting influence of world power!



Who is taking action though? I see that you have optimism, but on what is it based?
Who is actually learning anything from the past in order not to repeat the mistakes in the future?

Humanity is groaning in the most awful pain.....who will end the suffering?
I believe the Bible tells us.

Romans 8:18-25....
"For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. . . . .24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance."

Endurance is what we need to get us through this very lengthy lesson. (Matthew 24:13)
Seeing suffering for what it is, and understanding what God is teaching us through it...that is the most important lesson for now. Without the hope of something better to come, we could never see the 'light at the end of the tunnel.'

This is what is clear to me....

Each person chooses their view. Each person chooses to be stressed at any occurrence in life. Each person chooses the lessons they are to learn through their choices. Life isn't something done to us. Each chooses their path.

WE all have the power to Choose what we deem important in life. One can choose to see the goodness in others or one can see doom and gloom. Blame is another petty thing mankind holds so dear. Do you blame others for the trouble in this world?

Is a problem created by oneself when one values blame, controlling others,condemning others, etc?

OK, let's take a few steps back and look at the Big Picture. Mankind has come a long way since caveman days til now. Are not things getting better? Look at the advancement in the last 100 years. What will the next 100 years bring? Someone is learning something. Knowledge is being selflessly being carried forward.

Do you really think if you have it made you will do anything but enjoy the ride?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Deeje]

Each person chooses their view. Each person chooses to be stressed at any occurrence in life. Each person chooses the lessons they are to learn through their choices. Life isn't something done to us. Each chooses their path.

Where are all these paths leading? Do 'all roads lead to Rome'?...or somewhere else?
What is the purpose of the choices?

WE all have the power to Choose what we deem important in life. One can choose to see the goodness in others or one can see doom and gloom. Blame is another petty thing mankind holds so dear. Do you blame others for the trouble in this world?

Who does God blame for the trouble in this world? Does he see the goodness or the gloom and doom?
What is the point of this life with all its suffering?

If God has the power to stop it all...do you know why he hasn't? He never does things without good reason, and always with the long term benefit in view.....so who is on his wavelength, tuned into what he's accomplishing?.....and who is standing back with a limited understanding and criticizing him for what he isn't doing?
How can mere mortals judge God?....and yet that is what many do.....they are quick to throw him under the bus because he isn't doing what THEY think he should.

OK, let's take a few steps back and look at the Big Picture. Mankind has come a long way since caveman days til now. Are not things getting better?

I do not subscribe to the "caveman" scenario. I do not believe that we were all once primitive, half human/half apes.....God did not create us to be so. He gave us his attributes so that we would act as caretakers of his earth. He gave us an amazing start with perfect minds and bodies, fully equipped for the assignment he gave us. Just because some primitive people existed a long time ago, doesn't mean that all humans were at one time primitive.....just as there are still some people who live a primitive existence in this 21st century...they don't represent all of us, do they? Science's 'best guessing' does not substitute for Bible truth IMV. I trust God more than I trust the guesswork of science.

Look at the advancement in the last 100 years. What will the next 100 years bring? Someone is learning something. Knowledge is being selflessly being carried forward.

What have we achieved in the last 100 years?

Do the positive achievements outweigh the negative impact of man's mismanagement of himself and the planet, which is now groaning under the weight of his selfish agendas.....but no one is putting a stop to the madness.....why? Are we too stupid to see the problem?

We have known for decades that plastic pollution is a real problem...and yet plastic is still the container of choice, even now. Why wasn't its production banned decades ago and biodegradable products mandated instead? I think we know why....

What about man's development of ever more heinous weapons? In times passed, weapons were used more in hand to hand combat.....a more equal, one on one, man against man situation, where there was at least a fighting chance.....but today the killing is indiscriminate...a bomb can wipe out many people in one hit.... including women and children. Don't even get me started on nuclear or biological weapons.....all products of the last century.....

Do you really think if you have it made you will do anything but enjoy the ride?

Since no one really knows if they have passed the test until they pass the test, we all have to wait and see. No one can claim that they have made it through, until they have made it through.

Like Paul said..."Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus."
As one who had the "heavenly calling, even he was not presumptuous enough to think he could not fail. He lived each day as if his life depended on his faith staying strong.....because it did.

Until then, we are to maintain our Christian personality in a world where today, God is either dead, or he has been replaced by false gods. Our lives must be about endurance in the faith. (Matthew 24:13)

Once on the other side, then and only then can we "enjoy the ride"...free from the worry of another tomorrow in this world.

 

[Truthseeker]

I agree, and if that is true, why did Abdu’l-Baha say that God sends trials to His servants: “God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?”

I believe He does sometimes send trials to people. That doesn't mean that all trials are sent by God. We can't know which is which. He is all-powerful and can send whatever trials He wants to. Baha'u'llah Himself has said that God does whatsoever He pleases, and we are to accept whatever He ordains:

O Son of Spirit!

Ask not of Me that which We desire not for thee, then be content with what We have ordained for thy sake, for this is that which profiteth thee, if therewith thou dost content thyself.

Bahá’u’lláh, "The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh", a18

In my opinion "ordained" refers to both His commandments and events in our life. It profiting us depends on our attitude towards them. This also shows that those who suffer the most have the opportunity to advance the most, but it depends on their attitude. There's no reason to get mad at God for sending some trials to us if we have faith that the trials He sends us is ultimately for our own good.

Okay, I see the difference now, but it is unfair for God to single people out for mercy even if they do not deserve the mercy and give people different amounts of mercy. Can’t you see how that is unfair, or do you just accept that God does whatever He wills?

It's not unfair, as Jesus, who is a Manifestation God says. Justice for us is getting what we deserve from God. None of us get what we deserve from God, He shows mercy to all. That some get more mercy than others doesn't mean that those who don't get that much mercy are treated with injustice. God does whatever He pleases, we can't judge Him. Baha'u'llah says this too. It is harder to convince you of some things because you recognize Abdu'l-Baha's authority to expound on reality only partially. How do you know in many cases when Abdu'l-Baha is interpreting what Baha'u'llah says and when He does not?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not unfair, as Jesus, who is a Manifestation God says. Justice for us is getting what we deserve from God. None of us get what we deserve from God, He shows mercy to all.

I don't have time to answer this in full right now, but it is a good post so I will answer the rest of it later, but right now I just want to say one thing and I have told you this before, on Baha'i Forums...

You said: "Justice for us is getting what we deserve from God. None of us get what we deserve from God, He shows mercy to all."

So basically what you are saying is that we are sinners and nobody deserves jack squat from God, but God gives it to us anyhow. I am sorry Duane, but I cannot abide by this belief because it makes no sense that we are all undeserving sinners even if we do not sin. Sure we all make mistakes, but does that make is undeserving and why does that make us a sinner? Original sin is a Christian doctrine, is Baha'u'llah espousing it?

 

[Truthseeker]

I don't have time to answer this in full right now, but it is a good post so I will answer the rest of it later, but right now I just want to say one thing and I have told you this before, on Baha'i Forums...

You said: "Justice for us is getting what we deserve from God. None of us get what we deserve from God, He shows mercy to all."

So basically what you are saying is that we are sinners and nobody deserves jack squat from God, but God gives it to us anyhow. I am sorry Duane, but I cannot abide by this belief because it makes no sense that we are all undeserving sinners even if we do not sin. Sure we all make mistakes, but does that make is undeserving and why does that make us a sinner? Original sin is a Christian doctrine, is Baha'u'llah espousing it?

Here Baha'u'llah says it. I quote Baha'u'llah because you don't believe what Abdu'l-Baha says:

Deprive me not of Thy Mercy and Generosity, and drive me not afar from the Paradise of Thy [pg 48] Love and Thy remembrance: for verily, Thou art the Mighty, the Beloved, and Thou art most compassionate and Merciful to all Thy Servants.

—————
Bahá’u’lláh, "The River of Life"

Aren't we all sinners? I don't why you would think we just make "mistakes". I will quote Abdu'l-Baha saying all are sinners, but would you believe Him?

O Thou Forgiving Lord! Although certain souls finished the days of life in ignorance, were estranged and selfish, yet the ocean of Thy forgiveness is, verily, able to redeem and make free the sinners by one of its waves. Thou redeemest whomsoever Thou willest and deprivest whomsoever Thou willest not! Shouldst Thou treat justly, we all are sinners and deserve to be deprived; and shouldst Thou observe mercy, every sinner shall be made pure and every stranger shall become a friend. Therefore, forgive and pardon and grant Thy mercy unto all. Thou art the Forgiver, the Light-giver and the Compassionate!

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá ‘Abbás vol. 1-3"

It has nothing to do with original sin. We all have a degree of selfishness. Sorry you have trouble with this. You come from a background that is not religious, and apparently the concept that we are all sinners doesn't make rational sense to you. Christianity perhaps has made this seem bad to you.

I'm not saying either that none of us deserve anything from God, but that God gives us more than we deserve. God did give us life and a spiritual nature without us asking for it, though.

Abdu'l-Baha says: "we all are sinners and deserve to be deprived." I don't understand this as complete deprivation, but deprivation of the spiritual according to how much we sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here Baha'u'llah says it. I quote Baha'u'llah because you don't believe what Abdu'l-Baha says:

Deprive me not of Thy Mercy and Generosity, and drive me not afar from the Paradise of Thy [pg 48] Love and Thy remembrance: for verily, Thou art the Mighty, the Beloved, and Thou art most compassionate and Merciful to all Thy Servants.

—————
Bahá’u’lláh, "The River of Life"

Aren't we all sinners? I don't why you would think we just make "mistakes". I will quote Abdu'l-Baha saying all are sinners, but would you believe Him?

O Thou Forgiving Lord! Although certain souls finished the days of life in ignorance, were estranged and selfish, yet the ocean of Thy forgiveness is, verily, able to redeem and make free the sinners by one of its waves. Thou redeemest whomsoever Thou willest and deprivest whomsoever Thou willest not! Shouldst Thou treat justly, we all are sinners and deserve to be deprived; and shouldst Thou observe mercy, every sinner shall be made pure and every stranger shall become a friend. Therefore, forgive and pardon and grant Thy mercy unto all. Thou art the Forgiver, the Light-giver and the Compassionate!

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá ‘Abbás vol. 1-3"

It has nothing to do with original sin. We all have a degree of selfishness. Sorry you have trouble with this. You come from a background that is not religious, and apparently the concept that we are all sinners doesn't make rational sense to you. Christianity perhaps has made this seem bad to you.

I'm not saying either that none of us deserve anything from God, but that God gives us more than we deserve. God did give us life and a spiritual nature without us asking for it, though.

Abdu'l-Baha says: "we all are sinners and deserve to be deprived." I don't understand this as complete deprivation, but deprivation of the spiritual according to how much we sin.

I am sorry Duane but I do not believe we are all undeserving sinners just because we are all selfish to varying degrees. God sure gives some people more grace than they deserve but God gives other people more suffering than they deserve. That is how I see it if I look around in the real world as opposed to just believing scriptures. I see inequity and I see undeserved suffering, and to say that it is for our benefit and we will realize that in the spiritual world just is not good enough for me.

You said: I'm not saying either that none of us deserve anything from God, but that God gives us more than we deserve. God did give us life and a spiritual nature without us asking for it, though.

Let's not forget that God also gave us life and a material nature without us asking for it.

 

[Bird123]

Where are all these paths leading? Do 'all roads lead to Rome'?...or somewhere else?
What is the purpose of the choices?



Who does God blame for the trouble in this world? Does he see the goodness or the gloom and doom?
What is the point of this life with all its suffering?

If God has the power to stop it all...do you know why he hasn't? He never does things without good reason, and always with the long term benefit in view.....so who is on his wavelength, tuned into what he's accomplishing?.....and who is standing back with a limited understanding and criticizing him for what he isn't doing?
How can mere mortals judge God?....and yet that is what many do.....they are quick to throw him under the bus because he isn't doing what THEY think he should.



I do not subscribe to the "caveman" scenario. I do not believe that we were all once primitive, half human/half apes.....God did not create us to be so. He gave us his attributes so that we would act as caretakers of his earth. He gave us an amazing start with perfect minds and bodies, fully equipped for the assignment he gave us. Just because some primitive people existed a long time ago, doesn't mean that all humans were at one time primitive.....just as there are still some people who live a primitive existence in this 21st century...they don't represent all of us, do they? Science's 'best guessing' does not substitute for Bible truth IMV. I trust God more than I trust the guesswork of science.



What have we achieved in the last 100 years?

Do the positive achievements outweigh the negative impact of man's mismanagement of himself and the planet, which is now groaning under the weight of his selfish agendas.....but no one is putting a stop to the madness.....why? Are we too stupid to see the problem?

We have known for decades that plastic pollution is a real problem...and yet plastic is still the container of choice, even now. Why wasn't its production banned decades ago and biodegradable products mandated instead? I think we know why....

What about man's development of ever more heinous weapons? In times passed, weapons were used more in hand to hand combat.....a more equal, one on one, man against man situation, where there was at least a fighting chance.....but today the killing is indiscriminate...a bomb can wipe out many people in one hit.... including women and children. Don't even get me started on nuclear or biological weapons.....all products of the last century.....



Since no one really knows if they have passed the test until they pass the test, we all have to wait and see. No one can claim that they have made it through, until they have made it through.

Like Paul said..."Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus."
As one who had the "heavenly calling, even he was not presumptuous enough to think he could not fail. He lived each day as if his life depended on his faith staying strong.....because it did.

Until then, we are to maintain our Christian personality in a world where today, God is either dead, or he has been replaced by false gods. Our lives must be about endurance in the faith. (Matthew 24:13)

Once on the other side, then and only then can we "enjoy the ride"...free from the worry of another tomorrow in this world.

The Paths lead to Wisdom and High Intelligence.

your quote:
Who does God blame for the trouble in this world? Does he see the goodness or the gloom and doom?
What is the point of this life with all its suffering?
My Answer: I can see religion has corrupted your thinking. Blame is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. God is at a much Higher Level. Blame is not important to God.

What is more important? Blaming, judging, hating, condemning, wanting payback and punishment or Teaching all your children Great wisdom with High Intelligence by Discovering what the best choices really are?

Do not allow religion to corrupt your view.

your quote:If God has the power to stop it all...do you know why he hasn't?
My Answer: Why does God want to stop it? God is counting on it. Mankind's goal is to have it made. God's goal is to educate His children within the realm of free will. This time-based causal universe is Perfect for this.

God hides nothing. To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When one understands God's actions, one understands God.

God's actions can not be altered by mankind like all those holy books. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Much more knowledge lives beyond the surface. Widen that view!! Yes, God wants everyone to Question everything. Like I said. God is hiding nothing.

You look at the world and see a mess. I look at the world and see a MASTERPIECE!!

your quote:I do not subscribe to the "caveman" scenario.
My Answer: OK, go back 1000 years. How does it look today? Population is through the roof today simply because mankind's knowledge and capability has reached a level to be able to support the numbers. Advances in communication and interaction are through the roof and will continue to grow faster as we learn. This alone will solve so many problems by itself.
Will there be problems like too much plastic? Sure, problems point the way to learning when the need for resolution makes things unbearable not to change, change will come.

As knowledge increases so does capabilities. Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover knowledge. The problems will be solved.

your quote:Are we too stupid to see the problem?
My Answer: In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons one has already learned. Is this an excuse to resurrect all those petty things mankind holds so dear? Is it time to blame,condemn,hate then get angry? Is it time to value the petty thing of wanting to Control? Seems there is a lot of things you need to learn. One can never reach a Higher Level valuing the petty things. Have you really been happy doing it??

No one can guaranty the actions of another. On the other hand, one has control over their own choices and actions. God returns our action back to us. This is not to punish. This is to teach us what our actions and choices really mean.

Look around this world. There is learning going on everywhere. The dynamics of God's system is simply amazing.

God is teaching everyone to Love Unconditionally. How? Good actions also return. In time, people will learn to Love Unconditionally simply because that is what everyone wants to return.

There is no Test. There is only Education. Living those lesson through free choice is the best learning.

All God's children will make it so watch how you see and judge others. There is more to learn than could ever be done in one mere lifetime. There is no time limit on learning.

People go to God between lifetimes to understand that the adversity in life has never been punishment. It merely points the direction of learning. God Loves all His Children Unconditionally.

As I said. God hides nothing. All this can be Discovered by anyone just by studying what stares us all in the face.

Given enough lives and lessons, one will learn how to create that Heavenly state. Until the lessons are learned, one will not be at that Higher Level where there is no longer a need for a physical body.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!