Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[viole]

Here again, I'm replying late! Oh, well.....



Thank you....I'll take all the sympathy I can get!
Kidding aside, Really, its the only way to understand the need and importance for Jesus' sacrifice.
In addition, The other Bible writers -- Luke, Ezra, Paul, etc. -- understood Adam and Eve were real people.



Well, here's the thing about death, as I may have pointed out in previous posts.....death is absence of life, non-existence (Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 9:5). So, whether it's for 1000 years or 1 minute, the effect is the same.

Death is the 'payment' for sin, nothing else. (Romans 6:23) And Jesus, being perfect, never would have gotten old and died.
So His human life was really 'given'.
He could have lived forever as a human. Adam & Eve could have, too.



I would too, actually. But ultimately, regarding everyone who ever lived, that's God's decision.

You know, so many people have committed awful atrocities, like Hitler did. But who's to say that it wasn't a chemical imbalance, an enlarged or imperfect hypothalamus....something they couldn't control? At least, for some? Jehovah God knows.

(No such problem with Adam and Eve!)

Think of the implications of resurrecting people long since dead, I.e., billions: for these ones to recognize their loved ones, and to have those same feelings for their family before they themselves died....that indicates a personal interest that God has in each and every one of us, for God to remember such details!

It depends on the feelings. I know a few who would shoot members of their family. I hope those harps we get in heaven are metaphoric. You could easily strangle people with their strings.

Funny! I've thought of that, myself.

Well, obviously. I would check other things too. Their DNA for instance. I am particularly intrigued by that tail growing gene that we still have.

And their immune system. Just to see if they were from the beginning equipped with tools in order to defend themselves from the future results of sin.

They were inexperienced, you could say....but they were inclined to be obedient. They had to force themselves to disobey. Totally opposite of us, being imperfect!

I cannot imagine an inexperienced perfect being. It could be easily outperformed by an experienced one, defeating the premise that it was perfect to start with.

So, all this mess has been caused by God wrath because two inexperienced people did not know something that can be acquired only with experience?

Maybe we could discuss a related subject: how many, since Adam & Eve, probably have died, and how this Earth could support such a huge population being resurrected?

i don't know. But I would buy some commodity stocks when that day happens.

Ciao

- viole

 

[1robin]

If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.
• To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.

Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

That is quite a lot of stuff to consider. Let me ask something first before I invest a lot of time.

1. Can you show that if the God of the bible exists that his allowing the exact amount of suffering we see is somehow contradicting his own nature?

2. Do you understand the difference between an emotional conclusion to an event occurring verses the philosophic conclusion to the occurrence of the same event.

The reason I am starting slow is that this issue is extremely complex and I want to see if you care enough about resolving it to go through all the work necessary to do so. "The problem of evil" is the greatest impediment to belief in God, but when viewed philosophically it looses most of it's teeth. Do you want to spend enough time to make a dent in this issue?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1. Can you show that if the God of the bible exists that his allowing the exact amount of suffering we see is somehow contradicting his own nature?

If I may interject here, I hope you don't mind.

Yes, suffering is against His 'nature'. (We're referring to the Bible God, right?)

There's a lot to say here, regarding this topic. Extremely essential to understanding it, is understanding what the Bible says about death, and the condition of those who are dead.

Please read my previous link: Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

We can discuss this further, if you'd like.

"The problem of evil" is the greatest impediment to belief in God,

Yes, definitely! And it has hurt the issue even more, by religion claiming that God tortures people after death. But keep in mind what was written above, in that link.

Hope you have a good evening, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It depends on the feelings. I know a few who would shoot members of their family. I hope those harps we get in heaven are metaphoric. You could easily strangle people with their strings.

strangle with the harps, huh? Lol.

Maybe we didn't discuss it, but the hope given to mankind is to live here, on this Earth, after wickedness has been removed.

I would check other things too. Their DNA for instance. I am particularly intrigued by that tail growing gene that we still have.

'tail growing gene', huh?

Why not the tonsils? Or appendix?

I hope you're open to consider this link on the subject, it is exhaustive (to me):

Do any vestigial organs exist in humans? - creation.com

And their immune system. Just to see if they were from the beginning equipped with tools in order to defend themselves from the future results of sin.

Their DNA, and immune system, would be.....perfect. Short of not using common sense and drinking Clorox, nothing would make them sick. And if they unknowingly did something harmful, Jehovah God as their father would be there to help. He is not watching over the Earth or mankind completely, now. For that reason, we have His letter (the Bible), which gives us guidance. At least for those who appreciate it.

I cannot imagine an inexperienced perfect being. It could be easily outperformed by an experienced one, defeating the premise that it was perfect to start with

You can't? Really? You think a perfect two-year-old toddler would have the same experience as a perfect adult? Come on.

Perfection, or imperfection, has no bearing on experience.

So, all this mess has been caused by God wrath because two inexperienced people did not know something that can be acquired only with experience?

No, their disobedience. (It's hard for us to fathom physical, emotional, and mental perfection. But we do have an example of human perfection, in Jesus Christ. The Devil even tried to get him to sin. All the suffering Jesus experienced near the end, and he still remained obedient. -- Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Peter 2:22-23)

Have I wasted my time? I detect sarcasm. (Hope not. If so, Maybe others will read my reply.)

One last thought:

Isaac Newton said: "I study the Bible daily".

(Not just read it....he 'studied' it.)

And his conclusion?

He said, "I find more sure marks of the authenticity of the Bible than in any profane history whatever."

If Isaac Newton (and other scientists like Boyle, Keppler, etc) found the Bible worthy of consideration, do you think it might benefit you?

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It depends on the feelings. I know a few who would shoot members of their family. I hope those harps we get in heaven are metaphoric. You could easily strangle people with their strings.

strangle with the harps, huh? Lol.

Maybe we didn't discuss it, but the hope given to mankind is to live here, on this Earth, after wickedness has been removed.

I would check other things too. Their DNA for instance. I am particularly intrigued by that tail growing gene that we still have.

'tail growing gene', huh?

Why not the tonsils? Or appendix?

I hope you're open to consider this link on the subject, it is exhaustive (to me):

Do any vestigial organs exist in humans? - creation.com

And their immune system. Just to see if they were from the beginning equipped with tools in order to defend themselves from the future results of sin.

Their DNA, and immune system, would be.....perfect. Short of not using common sense and drinking Clorox, nothing would make them sick. And if they unknowingly did something harmful, Jehovah God as their father would be there to help. He is not watching over the Earth or mankind completely, now. For that reason, we have His letter (the Bible), which gives us guidance. At least for those who appreciate it.

I cannot imagine an inexperienced perfect being. It could be easily outperformed by an experienced one, defeating the premise that it was perfect to start with

You can't? Really? You think a perfect two-year-old toddler would have the same experience as a perfect adult? Come on.

Perfection, or imperfection, has no bearing on experience.

So, all this mess has been caused by God wrath because two inexperienced people did not know something that can be acquired only with experience?

No, their disobedience. (It's hard for us to fathom physical, emotional, and mental perfection. But we do have an example of human perfection, in Jesus Christ. The Devil even tried to get him to sin. All the suffering Jesus experienced near the end, and he still remained obedient. -- Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Peter 2:22-23)

Have I wasted my time? I detect sarcasm. (Maybe others will read my reply.)

If Isaac Newton found the Bible worthy of consideration, do you think it might benefit you?

 

[viole]

strangle with the harps, huh? Lol.

Maybe we didn't discuss it, but the hope given to mankind is to live here, on this Earth, after wickedness has been removed.

That depends on the Christianity flavor. I mean, you Christians cannot even agree where we (well, you) will spend eternity, among other basic stuff. How do you intend to convince a skeptic?

'tail growing gene', huh?

Why not the tonsils? Or appendix?

I hope you're open to consider this link on the subject, it is exhaustive (to me):

Do any vestigial organs exist in humans? - creation.com

Creation.com?

I obviously did not inflict upon myself the pain to read the whole thing. A cursory look does not seem to address the tail growing gene though.

Did you know thar some kids have a tail when they are born?

I mean, who would design a tail gene and then another gene that deactivates the former (in most cases)? That looks like SD.

Their DNA, and immune system, would be.....perfect. Short of not using common sense and drinking Clorox, nothing would make them sick. And if they unknowingly did something harmful, Jehovah God as their father would be there to help. He is not watching over the Earth or mankind completely, now. For that reason, we have His letter (the Bible), which gives us guidance. At least for those who appreciate it.

That guidance seems not to be so clear cut, as we have seen in the case of where you will be located after death.

You can't? Really? You think a perfect two-year-old toddler would have the same experience as a perfect adult? Come on.

I don't know any perfect two years old. The last one I thought was perfect, vomited on my new Valentino dress.

No, their disobedience. (It's hard for us to fathom physical, emotional, and mental perfection. But we do have an example of human perfection, in Jesus Christ. The Devil even tried to get him to sin. All the suffering Jesus experienced near the end, and he still remained obedient. -- Philippians 2:5-11; 1 Peter 2:22-23)

If you consider mental perfection talking with fig trees, then well.

If Isaac Newton found the Bible worthy of consideration, do you think it might benefit you?

Newton was many things. He was an alchemist and an astrologer too. So, the inference "comes from Newton" -> "should be taken seriously" does not obtain in general.

And the Bible already benefited me. While I was a born again I read it from Genesis to Revelation many times, Bible studies, seminars, and all that. The full program.

I became an atheist after reading it one last time. The only difference is that this time I payed attention.

Ciao

- fiole

 

[1robin]

If I may interject here, I hope you don't mind.

Yes, suffering is against His 'nature'. (We're referring to the Bible God, right?)

There's a lot to say here, regarding this topic. Extremely essential to understanding it, is understanding what the Bible says about death, and the condition of those who are dead.

Please read my previous link: Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

We can discuss this further, if you'd like.

Of course I do not mind if you respond to me.

Tell me how the temporary suffering of the members of the human race is inconsistent with God's nature. You do realize that the Bible is full of suffering that God himself inflicted upon certain groups of people? If creation fell when Adam sinned then why in the world do you not accept that both God and suffering can exist at the same time?

Which do you deny?

1. That God exists?
2. That God is good?
3. That suffering occurs?

Yes, definitely! And it has hurt the issue even more, by religion claiming that God tortures people after death. But keep in mind what was written above, in that link.

Hope you have a good evening, my cousin.

I did read your link but let me ask first if you are a born again Christian or something else?

We seem to agree that suffering is the biggest impediment. However that in and of it's self is meaningless because if it was not suffering it would necessarily be something else that was the greatest impediment to faith. Anyway let's try and see if suffering deserves it's title as biggest hurdle to faith.

First let me point out the the problem of evil is no longer viewed as a sound argument against God's existence in even secular philosophical circles. It's is sort of a paper tiger. The so called "problem of evil" actually has two parts with over lapping magisterium. It has a philosophical component and an emotional component.

1. The person claiming that the existence of suffering is evidence against God's existence has the burden of proof, but has no proof to provide. They would have to show that God could produce a possible world in which the same amount of people would freely come to have faith in God, while also having less suffering than our world does. For love to exist freewill to exist, for freewill to exist we must be able to use that freewill to choose evil, if evil exists suffering will exist.

2. Even though temporary suffering is completely consistent with a good God's existence we have never and will never like suffering. I am sure you understand that our emotions are rarely rational. So when we suffer our faith in God suffers though it does not do so rationally. As far as I know Noah suffered and died, Moses suffered and died, Jesus suffered and died, etc.... Why we are suffering or dying why should we loose faith in God?

Which one of those two points do you wish to discuss.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That depends on the Christianity flavor. I mean, you Christians cannot even agree where we (well, you) will spend eternity, among other basic stuff. How do you intend to convince a skeptic?



Creation.com?

I obviously did not inflict upon myself the pain to read the whole thing. A cursory look does not seem to address the tail growing gene though.

Did you know thar some kids have a tail when they are born?

I mean, who would design a tail gene and then another gene that deactivates the former (in most cases)? That looks like SD.



That guidance seems not to be so clear cut, as we have seen in the case of where you will be located after death.



I don't know any perfect two years old. The last one I thought was perfect, vomited on my new Valentino dress.



If you consider mental perfection talking with fig trees, then well.



Newton was many things. He was an alchemist and an astrologer too. So, the inference "comes from Newton" -> "should be taken seriously" does not obtain in general.

And the Bible already benefited me. While I was a born again I read it from Genesis to Revelation many times, Bible studies, seminars, and all that. The full program.

I became an atheist after reading it one last time. The only difference is that this time I payed attention.

Ciao

- fiole

I don't blame you for turning away from religion, but I hope you won't continue to exclude the Bible, too.

Do you see religious leaders, or even most professed Christians, living up to it? The clergy, for example, make money off of it; but Jesus said, "you received free, give free."

Plus, their involvement in war, supporting the killing of others, is a documented fact. But God's word says to "love your enemy."(Matthew 5:44) And if a fellow Christian, their brother, lives in another country, and is the enemy, so much for John 13:34-35.

G.K. Chesterton stated, "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

Why would God (who is Jesus' Father) give religious leaders an accurate understanding of His word (Luke 10:21), if they're not obedient to how He wants us to act?

So, throw Christendom out, but not the Scriptures!

Ciao, my cousin.

 

[viole]

I don't blame you for turning away from religion, but I hope you won't continue to exclude the Bible, too.

Do you see religious leaders, or even most professed Christians, living up to it? The clergy, for example, make money off of it; but Jesus said, "you received free, give free."

Plus, their involvement in war, supporting the killing of others, is a documented fact. But God's word says to "love your enemy."(Matthew 5:44) And if a fellow Christian, their brother, lives in another country, and is the enemy, so much for John 13:34-35.

G.K. Chesterton stated, "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

Why would God (who is Jesus' Father) give religious leaders an accurate understanding of His word (Luke 10:21), if they're not obedient to how He wants us to act?

So, throw Christendom out, but not the Scriptures!

Ciao, my cousin.

I mean, why not the Scriptures, too?

Apart from them making me the atheist I am now.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello, 1robin. Hope your day is going well!

Tell me how the temporary suffering of the members of the human race is inconsistent with God's nature.

The situation that we humans find ourselves in, with the pain and suffering we experience, was not originally part of God's purpose. If this was God's purpose, why did Jesus teach us to pray for 'Thy will be done on Earth"? -- Matthew 6:9-10

Do loving parents want their children to suffer? Never. But sometimes, in order to get well, they must undergo a painful procedure, maybe even surgery. But it's for the better, in the long run.

What's the 'painful procedure'? The trials of human rulership without God's guidance, which was one of the issues raised in the Garden of Eden.

But He has always helped those who look to Him....He's given us His word.

When the nation Israel agreed to follow Yahweh's Laws, He protected them.

You do realize that the Bible is full of suffering that God himself inflicted upon certain groups of people?

Suffering, or death? Death is simply a cessation of life -- a "sleep", as Jesus likened it (John 11:11-14) -- from which there will be a Resurrection, that even the unrighteous will enjoy, in the future -- John 5:28-29; John 6:44.

When others were killed at His order, it was because He loved and was protecting His people.

I doubt you want to kill anyone. But wouldn't you, to protect the life of your family?

Besides, as stated, God will give these unrighteous ones, life again.

Hell is the grave, no torment.

If creation fell when Adam sinned then why in the world do you not accept that both God and suffering can exist at the same time?

I do, I see it everyday. But suffering and even death will gone from this Earth, one day. -- Revelation 21:3-4.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I mean, why not the Scriptures, too?

Apart from them making me the atheist I am now.

Ciao

- viole

I wrote all of that, and you ask this question? You didn't read what I posted, obviously.

The majority have been misinformed about what the Scriptures teach.

I was one of them.

A wise person wants to learn more to gain understanding, examines all the evidence, and keeps an open mind.


But you're gonna do what you want to.

 

[1robin]

Hello, 1robin. Hope your day is going well!



The situation that we humans find ourselves in, with the pain and suffering we experience, was not originally part of God's purpose. If this was God's purpose, why did Jesus teach us to pray for 'Thy will be done on Earth"? -- Matthew 6:9-10

Do loving parents want their children to suffer? Never. But sometimes, in order to get well, they must undergo a painful procedure, maybe even surgery. But it's for the better, in the long run.

What's the 'painful procedure'? The trials of human rulership without God's guidance, which was one of the issues raised in the Garden of Eden.

But He has always helped those who look to Him....He's given us His word.

When the nation Israel agreed to follow Yahweh's Laws, He protected them.

Hello HC. I couldn't figure out what your avatar was, but I think it is that mysterious blue lava from some where, correct?

It is very hard to evaluate your individual claims because I do not know what your conclusions is. It looks like your only posting premise' without a final conclusion.

My own conclusion was that the existence of a good God is not contradictory with the existence of evil or suffering. Do you disagree?

Anyway, you got things a little out of order here. It is incorrect to introduce an analogy and then to force scriptures to fit within it. Analogies should be derivative and never primary.

Suffering, or death? Death is simply a cessation of life -- a "sleep", as Jesus likened it (John 11:11-14) -- from which there will be a Resurrection, that even the unrighteous will enjoy, in the future -- John 5:28-29; John 6:44.

That only concerns the first death, the second death is more efficacious. If we suffer the second death we will never awake from it. I believe that whatever Hell may or may not be currently, it and all it's contents will eventually be annihilated all together.

When others were killed at His order, it was because He loved and was protecting His people.

I doubt you want to kill anyone. But wouldn't you, to protect the life of your family?

Besides, as stated, God will give these unrighteous ones, life again.

Hell is the grave, no torment.



I do, I see it everyday. But suffering and even death will gone from this Earth, one day. -- Revelation 21:3-4.

I am not really sure what it is we disagree about. When you responded to me originally were you countering an argument or position that I gave or have? Outside of a few definitional clarifications I have yet to see anything we disagree about. If I am missing something then please let me know what it is.

You and I both seem to agree that:

1. God exists.
2. Objective moral values and duties exist.
3. Suffering exists.
4. The Bible is reliable and trustworthy.
5. That we all physically die.
6. That spiritual death (separation from God) exists.

When you responded to me I assumed it was because we disagreed but I have no idea what we disagree about. A little clarification please.

Maybe we disagree what Hell is, or something.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello HC. I couldn't figure out what your avatar was, but I think it is that mysterious blue lava from some where, correct?

You're correct.

My own conclusion was that the existence of a good God is not contradictory with the existence of evil or suffering. Do you disagree?

No, I agree completely. I was just posting how the Genesis account in the Scriptures, I.e., the Bible, (and other Biblical events,) when reasoning on what occurred, can help us to understand why Jehovah God allows bad things to happen.
(Was it to you I posted these things? I've got all these different dialogues going on with many different posters on this site.... I forget what I wrote to who! Lol. Forgive me.)

When you responded to me I assumed it was because we disagreed but I have no idea what we disagree about. A little clarification please.

No, I agree with you, at least on these points. The condition of the dead may be one point of contention, I don't know.....my view, based completely on the Scriptures with no Platonic influence, differs greatly from most others.

Are you aware of how much pagan, Greek philosophy has influenced mainstream Christian theology? It's really sad!

I believe that whatever Hell may or may not be currently, it and all it's contents will eventually be annihilated all together.

Yes, the Bible says that Hell will "eventually be annihilated"! It's amazing to me that you know this! More think that Hell is eternal.

Did you know, the patriarch Jacob said he was going to Hell when he died? And Job prayed to go there, to escape his suffering. But hoped that God would "remember" him, and resurrect him, I.e., bring him back to life.

 

[1robin]

You're correct.

Very well.

No, I agree completely. I was just posting how the Genesis account in the Scriptures, I.e., the Bible, (and other Biblical events,) when reasoning on what occurred, can help us to understand why Jehovah God allows bad things to happen.
(Was it to you I posted these things? I've got all these different dialogues going on with many different posters on this site.... I forget what I wrote to who! Lol. Forgive me.)

No problem, I lose track of debates all the time.

No, I agree with you, at least on these points. The condition of the dead may be one point of contention, I don't know.....my view, based completely on the Scriptures with no Platonic influence, differs greatly from most others.

Are you aware of how much pagan, Greek philosophy has influenced mainstream Christian theology? It's really sad!

Well the majority of the NT was written by Hellenized Greeks, in Koine Greek, so it is not that surprising. However you may have meant the extra biblical Catholic traditions instead of the bible.

Yes, the Bible says that Hell will "eventually be annihilated"! It's amazing to me that you know this! More think that Hell is eternal.

It also says for us to fear God, who can destroy both the body and soul. Why would anyone warn us about a thing that could not happen? IMO the reason that many of the standard interpretations became mainstream was because the Catholic church made whatever it believed the "law" for all Christians for many years. There are hundreds of street level things you hear about the bible that the bible simply does not contain, or flatly contradicts. If you knew how many hours I spend on theological discussions every weak and have for decades, you would only wonder why I don't in fact know more than I do. You seem to be well versed in theology as well.

Did you know, the patriarch Jacob said he was going to Hell when he died? And Job prayed to go there, to escape his suffering. But hoped that God would "remember" him, and resurrect him, I.e., bring him back to life.

Actually that can get confusing. For the most part the OT does not get into Hell in detail. It speaks of a place called Sheol which can mean many different things, the most common being abode of the dead or grave. It gets worse than Jacob, David said that even when he went to Sheol that God would be there with him as well.

Good post.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well the majority of the NT was written by Hellenized Greeks, in Koine Greek, so it is not that surprising. However you may have meant the extra biblical Catholic traditions instead of the bible.

I don't mean the writings so much, Rylands papyrus and the DSS laid that skepticism to rest. (Too bad for the die-hard atheists!)

No, I'm referring to the meanings of those writings, what the authors' intents were.

It also says for us to fear God, who can destroy both the body and soul. Why would anyone warn us about a thing that could not happen?

Good reasoning.

IMO the reason that many of the standard interpretations became mainstream was because the Catholic church made whatever it believed the "law" for all Christians for many years. There are hundreds of street level things you hear about the bible that the bible simply does not contain, or flatly contradicts.

Boy, ain't that the truth!

You seem to be well versed in theology as well.

Thank you. I've studied the Scriptures for many years, mostly with the aid of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Actually that can get confusing. For the most part the OT does not get into Hell in detail. It speaks of a place called Sheol which can mean many different things, the most common being abode of the dead or grave.

I've come to understand that the English word 'Hell', the Hebrew 'She'ol', and the Greek 'Hades' (as used by the Septuagint writers) are interchangeable, and they all mean the Grave (not an individual tomb), where we all end up due to our imperfection that resulted from Adam's sin.

There's a quote from Galileo I like to use: "All truths are easy to understand, once they are discovered."

I feel this is true, regarding Bible truth!

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Why does it seem that God never intervenes in human suffering?

It seems that God does not intervene in human suffering because, when HaShem caused man to exist, He commanded him to grow and multiply and fill up the earth. (Genesis 1:28) Of course it was not only biologically but also intellectually. Indeed, man has expanded his intellectual power in such proportions that we are today well equipped with all kinds of professionals, especially as Science is concerned. So, the Lord is aware that we can take care of ourselves. Hence the reason why He seems not to intervene in human sufferings. Man has become, so to speak, self sufficient to live and to prosper.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It seems that God does not intervene in human suffering because, when HaShem caused man to exist, He commanded him to grow and multiply and fill up the earth. (Genesis 1:28) Of course it was not only biologically but also intellectually. Indeed, man has expanded his intellectual power in such proportions that we are today well equipped with all kinds of professionals, especially as Science is concerned. So, the Lord is aware that we can take care of ourselves. Hence the reason why He seems not to intervene in human sufferings. Man has become, so to speak, self sufficient to live and to prosper.

Jeremiah 10:23

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jeremiah 10:23

Jeremiah 10:23 was valid all right but at the time of Prophet Jeremiah. The development man has experienced throughout the time of about 3000 years is quite a different reality.

 

[1robin]

I don't mean the writings so much, Rylands papyrus and the DSS laid that skepticism to rest. (Too bad for the die-hard atheists!)

No, I'm referring to the meanings of those writings, what the authors' intents were.

Well stated.

Let me add something just in case your unfair with it. In any debate about the existence of the biblical God the very first step should be to determine the reliability of the bible's textual tradition. Investigating this produces a startling discovery.

The bible's textual integrity exceeds any book, of any kind, in all of ancient history. There is not even a close second place. The history of the Peloponnesian wars by Themistocles is the only work even on the playing field. One example (Caesar's Gallic wars) was known to be propaganda when it was written, we only have two extant copies, and they are from 1000 years after the original was written. Compared to the NT which has over 5000 copies in the Greek alone which date to within a few hundred years of the events.

Thank you. I've studied the Scriptures for many years, mostly with the aid of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Are you LDS?

I've come to understand that the English word 'Hell', the Hebrew 'She'ol', and the Greek 'Hades' (as used by the Septuagint writers) are interchangeable, and they all mean the Grave (not an individual tomb), where we all end up due to our imperfection that resulted from Adam's sin.

I agree.

There's a quote from Galileo I like to use: "All truths are easy to understand, once they are discovered."

I feel this is true, regarding Bible truth!

Take care, my cousin.

I remember back in about 1985 there was a fad going around where everyone called each other cous (or cuz). Everyone did it all the time for about 2 years and I had not heard it again until I saw you used cousin at the end of your posts.

It is rare and nice to debate someone that I agree with who is also a knowledgeable poster. However agreement makes for a poor challenge. Would you like to discuss something we disagree on, so one of us may learn something new? If your an LDS that would be a disagreement, or you can pick another issue. I will give you a few of my core beliefs for possible ideas.

1. I believe that salvation comes by faith and 100% through grace. It cannot be merited, it is not a reward, God has paid the entire price to save us, all we may do is accept it.

2. I do not believe that once grace based salvation is attained that it can ever be lost.

2.5. I believe that when salvation occurs in the life of a believer the person has a direct spiritual experience with God referred to as being born again.

3. I believe the universe is between 10 and 20 billion years old.

4. I believe microevolution occurs, I doubt anyone can possible know if macroevolution has ever occurred.

5. I believe the original revelation was given without any error (see the Chicago statement of faith), however modern mainstream bible versions have between .5% and 8% textual errors.

6. I believe the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, etc...... arguments for God's existence are valid.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jeremiah 10:23 was valid all right but at the time of Prophet Jeremiah. The development man has experienced throughout the time of about 3000 years is quite a different reality.

Yes, society is worse! Those words still apply.

What development is it, when men can send others 240,000 miles to the Moon, but many are afraid to walk out of their doors at night?

Men have found ways to genetically alter and increase food production, yet over 1 billion people are starving!

Theyre conquering illness, but more keep cropping up! And becoming more resistant to treatment.

Then, scientists find uses for materials that seem beneficial, like asbestos, only to discover later on that they are harmful, cancer-causing agents.

Give me a break.


That's the thing about Yahweh's words, they're timeless.