Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[1robin]

I mean, why not the Scriptures, too?

Apart from them making me the atheist I am now.

Ciao

- viole

You started life as an atheist. Nothing is required to make you into one. What you should have said was that the scriptures failed to make you change your mind, or you refused to allow them to. There is no neutral position concerning God.

 

[1robin]

He's one person who lived a couple of hundred years ago. He didn't know anything close to what we know now. Who knows what he actually means by the quote you provided anyway.

I have read the Bible cover to cover. I think you'll find that a lot of atheists are quite familiar with the Bible, oftentimes more so than Christians. Many of us used to be Christian. Speaking for myself, a full reading of it is one of the things that led me away from Christianity.

If a person once actually becomes a Christian there is no biblical doctrine which suggests he can stop being one. However I do agree that many atheists have read the bible, but far too few actually understand it.

Case in point, there is a potentially infinite difference between what is referred to as:

1. Superficial faith - meaning merely to consent to an intellectual or historical proposition. This can be lost. This faith is offered by pretty much all faiths.

Versus.

2. Saving faith - meaning to be spiritually born into the family of God. This comes by grace (unmerited favor) and so does not require merit of any kind to retain. This can't be lost because it is not our faith but God's faith which guarantees the outcome. Only Christianity both offers and demands this kind of faith from and for every true believer.

 

[1robin]

Suffering is part of the human experience.
We must learn all things and all things must be learned through experience.

If you lived for a trillion millennia you will have learned only the tiniest fraction of all there is to know. Only God is omnipotent, your not God are you?

 

[1robin]

Is there a rebellion I can join?

No need, your already a member. Actually, your rebellion is for eternity unless you revoke your membership before it is to late. God paid the entire debt our rebellion has accumulated, but you have to admit the debt, and accept your pardon.

 

[allfoak]

If you lived for a trillion millennia you will have learned only the tiniest fraction of all there is to know. Only God is omnipotent, your not God are you?

No i am not God.
The we is used as a collective we, meaning all of humanity.

 

[1robin]

No i am not God.
The we is used as a collective we, meaning all of humanity.

Ok, just checking. However my response to your statement:

We must learn all things

with the fact we (collective or otherwise) can never learn all things still stands. Do you want to clarify your original claim?

 

[allfoak]

Ok, just checking. However my response to your statement:
with the fact we (collective or otherwise) can never learn all things still stands. Do you want to clarify your original claim?

We all have an eternal soul.
There is nothing we cannot learn.

 

[1robin]

We all have an eternal soul.
There is nothing we cannot learn.

Since God is the only omnipotent being then the smartest person who has ever, is, or will live will know everything minus (at least) one thing. The same is true of the collective. There is no reason to think anyone but God would, should, or could know everything. It is too arbitrarily bite of more than can be, should be, or needs to be.

If you position is that either a person or all persons can, have, or will know everything you must show.

1. That there is some reason to believe that is possible.
2. That there is some reason to think it will actually happen even if it is possible.
3. How you know any of those things.

I don't know why your saying we can know everything, even worse I don't even know why we should know everything. You might as well have said we will one day build a bridge from Cleveland to the sun. Why?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

No need, your already a member. Actually, your rebellion is for eternity unless you revoke your membership before it is to late. God paid the entire debt our rebellion has accumulated, but you have to admit the debt, and accept your pardon.

So like a loan shark, but instead of breaking my knee caps he burns me in a lake of fire.

 

[allfoak]

Since God is the only omnipotent being then the smartest person who has ever, is, or will live will know everything minus (at least) one thing. The same is true of the collective. There is no reason to think anyone but God would, should, or could know everything. It is too arbitrarily bite of more than can be, should be, or needs to be.

If you position is that either a person or all persons can, have, or will know everything you must show.

1. That there is some reason to believe that is possible.
2. That there is some reason to think it will actually happen even if it is possible.
3. How you know any of those things.

I don't know why your saying we can know everything, even worse I don't even know why we should know everything. You might as well have said we will one day build a bridge from Cleveland to the sun. Why?

You didn't understand my first answer so i don't know how i could ever break it down so that you could understand.
I would be trying to explain it to you all night long.

The answer is in my last post but you did not see the answer, so instead you just ignored the post and expect me to give you an answer based upon your criteria.

 

[1robin]

So like a loan shark, but instead of breaking my knee caps he burns me in a lake of fire.

So you want to rebel against God (truth), your rebellion being false and self centered it causes damage, but you blame him for paying off the debt your rebellion has piled up? I wish all loan sharks were that benevolent. BTW you do not need to use misrepresentative analogies, why don't you simply contend with the bible as is? You want to sin, so you sin, your sin causes damage, Christ pays for that damage, you call him evil for doing so. Then you continue your rebellion, cause more damage, and accrue additional debt. If God does not exist your annihilated, if he does exist you can hope at best to be annihilated. Your only hope is the God your cursing.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

So you want to rebel against God (truth), but you blame him for paying off the debt your rebellion has piled up? I wish all loan sharks were that benevolent. BTW you do not need to use misrepresentative analogies, why don't you simply contend with the bible as is? You want to sin, so you sin, your sin causes damage, Christ pays for that damage, you call him evil for doing so. Then you continue your rebellion, cause more damage, and accrue additional debt. If God does not exist your annihilated, if he does exist you can hope at best to be annihilated. Your only hope is the God your cursing.

I never sin, and never have. Not once in my life.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Are you LDS?

No, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is rare and nice to debate someone that I agree with who is also a knowledgeable poster.

Thank you, I feel the same, 1robin!

However agreement makes for a poor challenge. Would you like to discuss something we disagree on, so one of us may learn something new?

Yes I would. I think the two of us can remain respectful with each other. (Although you will find the concepts I've been taught are not popular, certainly not mainstream. But I can back them up with the Scriptures.) I won't ever belittle your view...my promise. (I had one guy tell me one time, "When people die, their souls go to fuel the Sun, to keep it burning." [How do you reply to that?!] I did not laugh, but I wanted to!)

Anyway, I'll enjoy hearing your understanding and reasoning on theological issues, but our conversation will have to continue tomorrow. Got a meeting to go to.

Have a good evening, my cousin. (BTW, I think you are my literal cousin, albeit distantly, because I accept the Noachian Flood account in the Bible; I feel we're all descendants of Noah and his wife.

You can start, with maybe one or two points (anything more gets convoluted), and I'll find something to disagree with. That sounds funny, lol.

 

[1robin]

No, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Sorry, sometimes I get non-mainstream Christian groups confused. I am only qualified to debate the LDS, I know little about JWs.

Thank you, I feel the same, 1robin!

You bet.

Yes I would. I think the two of us can remain respectful with each other. (Although you will find the concepts I've been taught are not popular, certainly not mainstream. But I can back them up with the Scriptures.) I won't ever belittle your view...my promise. (I had one guy tell me one time, "When people die, their souls go to fuel the Sun, to keep it burning." [How do you reply to that?!] I did not laugh, but I wanted to!)

I would have relied that that was the best example of metaphysical speculation I had ever heard, or maybe I should have said the worst.

Anyway, I'll enjoy hearing your understanding and reasoning on theological issues, but our conversation will have to continue tomorrow. Got a meeting to go to.

No problem, I am leaving in a half hour as well.

Have a good evening, my cousin. (BTW, I think you are my literal cousin, albeit distantly, because I accept the Noachian Flood account in the Bible; I feel we're all descendants of Noah and his wife.

You can start, with maybe one or two points (anything more gets convoluted), and I'll find something to disagree with. That sounds funny, lol.

Well, the obvious pond I would start fishing in would be to look into the core beliefs of the JWs and pick one to pounce on, however as ignorant as I am concerning that faith, and as intelligent as you seem to be about theological matters I think I will look elsewhere.

So let me post my core beliefs again and maybe add a few so you can find one that you either disagree with or that you want to investigate thoroughly.

1. I believe that salvation comes by faith and 100% through grace. It cannot be merited, it is not a reward, God has paid the entire price to save us, all we may do is accept it.

2. I do not believe that once grace based salvation is attained that it can ever be lost.

2.5. I believe that when salvation occurs in the life of a believer the person has a direct spiritual experience with God referred to as being born again.

3. I believe the universe is between 10 and 20 billion years old.

4. I believe microevolution occurs, I doubt anyone can possible know if macroevolution has ever occurred.

5. I believe the original revelation was given without any error (see the Chicago statement of faith), however modern mainstream bible versions have between .5% and 8% textual errors.

6. I believe the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, etc...... arguments for God's existence are valid.

7. I do not believe the Bible uses the term but I do believe that the concept referred to as the trinity is biblical.

8. I believe Paul was an anointed apostle who was given divine revelation.

9. I believe that Christ appeared in history with an unprecedented sense of divine authority, that he was killed on the cross by the Romans at the insistence of the Hebrew priestly class, I believe he practiced a ministry of miracle working and exorcism, and that even his enemies claimed to have spoken to him post mortem.

10. Actually, this would probably work better if you listed your tope 6 core beliefs and let me see if I disagree with any of them.

Talk to you soon

 

[loverofhumanity]

The blame falls on us. It is us people who built a system based on greed and materialism and now it is destroying us.

The time is approaching when we no longer can turn a blind eye but will be forced to address it as it increasingly affects our lives.

When people have suffered enough from this corrupt, unjust system, then they will themselves build a just and fairer one but not until it seems massive suffering has occurred.

The First World War brought the League of Nations and the Second, the UN so what will it take for people to really come together as one and toss out this rubbish nationalism and 'my religion is better than yours' rot? Something huge and unparalleled in human history will be required to push us out of our complacency and comfort zone to build a new world.

As a Bahá'í I'm building a new world and with a clear plan, step by step, brick by brick, but I expect soon, not in the too distant future, masses will join us as we have no one else but ourselves to blame for today's ills and no one else can fix them but us.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What a heart-felt post! We all long for better living conditions, but I'm afraid too much greed prevails, and not enough fellow-feeling.

Something huge and unparalleled in human history will be required

Yes, but it won't be at man's hands. God will step in. We are commanded by Jesus to pray, "Let Thy Kingdom come, Thy will (purpose) be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven." -- Matthew 6:9-10

When we pray this, we're actually praying for better conditions to come on this Earth, and God's Kingdom -- a world government, with Jesus as King (Isaiah 9:6-7; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28) -- will provide it. Some of the promised benefits (maybe we can discuss them later): Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 35:5-7; Revelation 21:3-5 (notice, "the tent of God is with mankind"; that's here on the Earth! (Isaiah 45:18).

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What a heart-felt post! We all long for better living conditions, but I'm afraid too much greed prevails, and not enough fellow-feeling.

Something huge and unparalleled in human history will be required

Yes, but it won't be at man's hands. God will step in. We are commanded by Jesus to pray, "Let Thy Kingdom come, Thy will (purpose) be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven." -- Matthew 6:9-10

When we pray this, we're actually praying for better conditions to come on this Earth, and God's Kingdom -- a world government, with Jesus as King (Isaiah 9:6-7; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28) -- will provide it. Some of the promised benefits (maybe we can discuss them later): Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 35:5-7; Revelation 21:3-5 (notice, "the tent of God is with mankind"; that's here on the Earth! (Isaiah 45:18)

 

[loverofhumanity]

What a heart-felt post! We all long for better living conditions, but I'm afraid too much greed prevails, and not enough fellow-feeling.



Yes, but it won't be at man's hands. God will step in. We are commanded by Jesus to pray, "Let Thy Kingdom come, Thy will (purpose) be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven." -- Matthew 6:9-10

When we pray this, we're actually praying for better conditions to come on this Earth, and God's Kingdom -- a world government, with Jesus as King (Isaiah 9:6-7; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28) -- will provide it. Some of the promised benefits (maybe we can discuss them later): Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 35:5-7; Revelation 21:3-5 (notice, "the tent of God is with mankind"; that's here on the Earth! (Isaiah 45:18)

The Father has come and He has brought the Kingdom. These are His Words calling out to every Christian on earth!

"Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God.

Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess."

(Bahaullah) Tablet to the Christians

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, society is worse! Those words still apply.

What development is it, when men can send others 240,000 miles to the Moon, but many are afraid to walk out of their doors at night?

Men have found ways to genetically alter and increase food production, yet over 1 billion people are starving!

Theyre conquering illness, but more keep cropping up! And becoming more resistant to treatment.

Then, scientists find uses for materials that seem beneficial, like asbestos, only to discover later on that they are harmful, cancer-causing agents.

Give me a break.

That's the thing about Yahweh's words, they're timeless.

What did you expect? That after all these thousands of years that HaShem has caused man to exist and gave them the word to grow and multiply and take control of the earth, still provide angel-like armies to fight our wars for us and cure our maladies? Not likely! We are not robots to be fixed by the Lord every time they get broken. We are expected to be able to take care of ourselves. Every time new virus come about, men are supposed to intensify their researches for more knowledge. Why give me a break! Could the option be to quit on the Creator because man is too slow with their achievements? On the other hand, perhaps nature is making use of the slogan that spells "Survival of the fittest." Don't you think so?

 

[viole]

You started life as an atheist. Nothing is required to make you into one. What you should have said was that the scriptures failed to make you change your mind, or you refused to allow them to. There is no neutral position concerning God.

Robin, I was a devout Christian for most of my life. I have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation several times. Bible study, etc.

So, it was indeed the Bible that let me change my mind. The difference is that the latest time I read it, I actually payed attention.

Ciao

- viole