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Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Do you want an example ?
Just make everyone know everything in those tablets. Nothing extra required. No tablets required.
Humans are not capable of understanding what is in those Tablets without a mediator...
That is why a Messenger is necessary. He can understand it and write it down in a form that we can understand. Nobody else has that capability and that is why they were chosen for the job.

The hundred-dollar question is still what some people have against Messengers... They are just doing the job God gave them to do.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Humans are not capable of understanding what is in those Tablets without a mediator...
That is why a Messenger is necessary. He can understand it and write it down in a form that we can understand. Nobody else has that capability and that is why they were chosen for the job.

The hundred-dollar question is still what some people have against Messengers... They are just doing the job God gave them to do.

The problem is: you can't prove any of that. You can't prove that Messengers are necessary, you can't prove Messengers are above humans, and you can't prove the message itself is accurate. So all you have is a bunch of excuses to justify why we should listen to a random dude who claims to speak for God.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Baha'u'llah is the one who explained it...He was the Messenger of God..
I am just explaining to you what He explained in His Writings...
There is no justifying it... it is what it is as God does what God does... God does not need to justify it.

The Messenger claimed himself to be necessary to pass down a message from God....

You know that is as self-serving as it can be, right ?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It was humans who cut themselves off from God, not the other way around.

Isn't it quite exhausting to believe humans are always in some sort of fault when they turn from god while believers are always benefited?

I mean, god puts other people at fault as to give them an ultimatum to follow him. That sounds very exhausting to feel one must follow god or be blamed for not following him. That's not love.

Also, how does the bible define love that does not give believers an ultimatum to believe him? (Isn't it exhausting to believe because you have to not because you want to?)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
According to an article in the Lancet, cited in Wikipedia, the actual figure is less than 1% over a whole lifetime!


Again, where's your evidence? Investigations into people's religious experiences in both Britain and the USA show that they are quite different from halucinations. There's also the point that surveys have also shown that mental illness is less common among those practicing a religion. (For citations of original research, see C. F. Davis, The evidental value of religious experience, OUP, 1989)

Are atheists incapable of getting their facts straight? Well, I suppose that's why they're atheists.

I believe that's 1% at any one time, the figure varies from 1 to 2.5% depending on which stats you use.

Was in talking about religious hallucinations? I specifically stated auditory hallucinations.

You want evidence
Hearing voices

How common are mental health problems? | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems

Now provide evidence that religious hallucinations are not caused bu carbon dioxide poisoning.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
On another forum I said: “One reason God does not communicate to everyone is because everyone does not deserve to know that God exists.” I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them.

Then this one atheist said that was a lame-*** excuse and he says it is just common sense that God should communicate directly to everyone.

This is what he has been saying to me for over three years. Everyone (all of the 7.4 billion people in the world) should get direct communication from God. God should not use Messengers because not everyone believes in them, especially in the beginning, when they first show up on earth.

What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

The answer to the question "why does not God communicate directly to everyone?" is quite tricky but is has a simple solution.

Spoiler: It is the same answer as "why doesn't the Loch Ness monster comes on the surface when asked to?".

Ciao

- viole
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
God did not create you with that need... You just think you have that need. You do not need that to believe in God. The proof is that we were all created the same way and you are no different from anyone else. Since 93% of people in the world believe in God without any verifiable evidence that is proof that people were not created with a need for verifiable evidence.

You are not some special order of creation different from everyone else in the world. All humans were created the same way. Atheists just think they need verifiable evidence, they have convinced themselves of that, but they are wrong. God knows all of us better than we know ourselves; that comes with being “All-Knowing.” Read this carefully...

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

I did not say that you would not have free will if God provided verifiable evidence of His existence. You would still have free will because that is an inbuilt feature of humans. What I said is that if you knew that God existed, you would not be able to turn away from God... You would choose to believe in God because you would know God exists. God does not want you to choose because you know, thereby you are coerced. God wants you to choose because you want to believe in Him, not because you have to believe in Him.

Oh, so you're going to childishly pretend as if you know better about what it takes for me to believe in something than I do. Let me give it a try: You don't REALLY believe in God, you just THINK that you do. My yes,what a WINNING debate strategy THIS is.

And let's be honest about your 93% believe in god nonsense. The reality is that maybe 30% of the population calls themselves Christian and they consider all of the Hindus, the Muslims,the Sikhs, and every OTHER religious followers to be DELUDING themselves into believing in a god or gods that don't actually exist.And of course the Hindus,Muslims, etc all think that the other,Christians included, are the ones who are deluding themselves. Heck, even among CHRISTIANS there are plenty of Catholics who think all of the Baptists, Methodist, etc are all DELUDING themselves into following the WRONG path.

All this tells me is that human beings are generally gullible and VERY good at deluding themselves.

"If God proves He exists that means you no longer have to choose because you would know God exists......
If you knew God existed for certain you would no longer be free to choose to believe or not believe....."

Why is it a bad thing to no longer have to choose? What is the benefit is being forced to choose whether or not you believe in god? In fact, doesn't god forcing us to CHOOSE if we believe just open the door for people to believe in MULTIPLE gods or a god that wants them to fly airplanes into buildings filled with people?

Can you provide an example of anything else in life that it is best to CHOOSE if you believe than to have verifiable evidence that it exists? You have verifiable evidence that the sun exists. Would it somehow be better if you had to CHOOSE to believe that the sun exists? And why exactly would the sun WANT us to have to CHOOSE to believe in it?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The problem is: you can't prove any of that. You can't prove that Messengers are necessary, you can't prove Messengers are above humans, and you can't prove the message itself is accurate. So all you have is a bunch of excuses to justify why we should listen to a random dude who claims to speak for God.
No, I cannot prove it, but I have plenty of evidence that "indicates" that Baha'u'llah was a real Messenger of God, so that is how I know.

I do not need to make excuses to you or to anyone else because I did not do anything wrong. I have free will so I freely decided what to believe in after doing the necessary investigation of Baha'u'llah and the religion that He established.

The same goes for you and everyone else. Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve whatever they want to. They do not need any excuses.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Messenger claimed himself to be necessary to pass down a message from God....

You know that is as self-serving as it can be, right ?
No, incorrect. The Messenger claimed that Messengers are necessary to get messages from God to humanity.

Baha'u'llah said that if He was stricken down it did not matter one iota... God would raise up another Messenger in His stead. Powerful is God to manifest His Cause.

“Dost thou imagine, O Minister of the Sháh in the City (Constantinople), that I hold within My grasp the ultimate destiny of the Cause of God? Thinkest thou that My imprisonment, or the shame I have been made to suffer, or even My death and utter annihilation, can deflect its course? Wretched is what thou hast imagined in thine heart! Thou art indeed of them that walk after the vain imaginings which their hearts devise. No God is there but Him. Powerful is He to manifest His Cause, and to exalt His testimony, and to establish whatsoever is His Will, and to elevate it to so eminent a position that neither thine own hands, nor the hands of them that have turned away from Him, can ever touch or harm it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 219-220
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The answer to the question "why does not God communicate directly to everyone?" is quite tricky but is has a simple solution.

Spoiler: It is the same answer as "why doesn't the Loch Ness monster comes on the surface when asked to?".

Ciao

- viole
Yes, that is one possibility. :)

But just because God does not communicate with everyone does not mean God does not exist.
I cannot really think of anything more ridiculous than a God that would communicate directly with everyone. :rolleyes:
Why would God want or need to do that? Just because some people want God to communicate directly to everyone is not a reason for God to communicate directly to everyone.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yes, that is one possibility. :)

But just because God does not communicate with everyone does not mean God does not exist.
I cannot really think of anything more ridiculous than a God that would communicate directly with everyone. :rolleyes:
Why would God want or need to do that? Just because some people want God to communicate directly to everyone is not a reason for God to communicate directly to everyone.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

It is true that because God does not communicate with everyone does not mean God does not exist. However, there is such a mess at the moment for what concerns "what God wants" that if I were God I would make it clear what I want. I mean, this is basic stuff. Some believe that people should be divided in castes while others believe that this is nonsense, while both appealing to their God's brand. And that is just an example.

Incidentally, some Christians friends of mine claim that God does indeed communicate directly with them. They call it a personal relationship, or something.

Do you think it is plausible or are they just deluded?

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh, so you're going to childishly pretend as if you know better about what it takes for me to believe in something than I do.
Do you think you know more than God about what is necessary to believe in God? You cannot know more than God unless you are more than omnipotent, which is logically impossible.

I do not decide what it takes to believe in God. Logically speaking, God created humans so God the one who knows what humans are capable of and what they need. If humans are not capable of believing in God and need something other than what God provides as evidence, then God cannot hold them accountable for believing in Him.

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Just because some people do not believe based upon the evidence that is provided by God does not mean they are incapable of believing.
Let me give it a try: You don't REALLY believe in God, you just THINK that you do. My yes, what a WINNING debate strategy THIS is.
I not only believe in God, I know God exists. How I know is beyond your comprehension.
And let's be honest about your 93% believe in god nonsense. The reality is that maybe 30% of the population calls themselves Christian and they consider all of the Hindus, the Muslims,the Sikhs, and every OTHER religious followers to be DELUDING themselves into believing in a god or gods that don't actually exist.And of course the Hindus,Muslims, etc all think that the other,Christians included, are the ones who are deluding themselves. Heck, even among CHRISTIANS there are plenty of Catholics who think all of the Baptists, Methodist, etc are all DELUDING themselves into following the WRONG path.
That is a red herring. It does not matter which religion they are or what they think of other religious people; if they are not an atheist they believe in God.

According to sociologists ArielaKeysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

That means that 93% of the world population believes in God.
All this tells me is that human beings are generally gullible and VERY good at deluding themselves.
All this tells me is that it is just obvious to most people that God exists, even with no verifiable evidence.
Why is it a bad thing to no longer have to choose? What is the benefit is being forced to choose whether or not you believe in god? In fact, doesn't god forcing us to CHOOSE if we believe just open the door for people to believe in MULTIPLE gods or a god that wants them to fly airplanes into buildings filled with people?
That is just how God wants it. God does not want the belief of people who do not freely choose to believe in Him. God wants them to be willing to do the work and determine for themselves if He exists. In that way they demonstrate their desire to believe in God. That process continues after one is a believer. One’s faith is constantly tested.

Think of it like a final examination at the end of a college quarter. One has to be tested in order to prove they are worthy of getting the college degree. They do not get it if they do not do the work and pass the courses necessary to obtain the degree. Why should belief in God be any different?
Can you provide an example of anything else in life that it is best to CHOOSE if you believe than to have verifiable evidence that it exists? You have verifiable evidence that the sun exists. Would it somehow be better if you had to CHOOSE to believe that the sun exists? And why exactly would the sun WANT us to have to CHOOSE to believe in it?
It is necessary to choose to believe in many things when we cannot obtain verifiable evidence.

Most things we choose to do in life have outcomes that are unknown, thus there is no verifiable evidence that that they will turn out as we hope they will turn out. We believe they will turn out as we hope but we cannot verify (prove) that until after the fact.

For example, when one decides they want children, there is no verifiable evidence that one will have a healthy baby. A couple believes they will have a healthy baby but it does not always work out that way.

If I decide to drive a car I believe that I will not have an accident but there is no verifiable evidence of that.

I ride a bicycle to work every day 12 miles each way in heavy traffic. I believe I will not get hit by a car but there is no verifiable evidence of that.

I had no verifiable evidence that I would be successful and get all the college degrees I got but I chose to believe that I would. Had I not chose to believe that, I would not have spent over 15 years going to college. Had I not taken the chance I would not have gotten those degrees and all the jobs I have gotten to earn a living.

I had a tenant who owed me more than ten thousand dollars in back rent and most people said I should have evicted him and cut my losses. However, I chose to believe that he would eventually pay that rent, and then a few months ago he sent me five thousand dollars. Since then he has been keeping up on the monthly rent and he has promised to pay the remainder of the rent he owes. Had I not chosen to believe him, without verifiable evidence, I would have been out ten thousand dollars. I had some evidence that he would eventually pay me, and that evidence was my past dealings with him and that he had never lied to me, so I believed in him because of his deeds and his character. For the same reason I believe Baha’u’llah is telling the truth, that He was a Messenger of God.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The Messenger claimed himself to be necessary to pass down a message from God....

You know that is as self-serving as it can be, right ?
It's not just the Prophet. Staunch religionists also believe that they are more smart, moral, educated, whatever than the rest of us. That's why God likes them enough to provide the evidence that they rely on.
That's also pretty self important.
Tom
 

siti

Well-Known Member
an atheist I post to on other forums has been insisting that if “a real God” existed, He would communicate directly to everyone

I would have been an agnostic or maybe a deist had I never stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith.

You might be interested to know that in the early 18th century one of the early English Deists - Matthew Tindal - wrote a book related to your topic entitled Christianity as Old as the Creation in which he made the argument that if God intended humans to follow the moral precepts of Christianity, He would have ensured that every human in every generation would have been aware of this requirement naturally - since it would have been unjust of God to have required obedience of more ancient generations to a moral requirement that was not revealed until long after they had lived and died. It was a very strong argument against revelation and was for a while considered the "Deist Bible".

I think your atheist friend is trying to get across the point that it is paradoxical to claim that an all-loving God would reveal the most important information exclusively to those who already had great faith in Him. If there is an omnibenevolent and omnipotent deity, it is perfectly obvious that the most important truths about "Him" and "His requirements of humans" must be self-evident to all or their judgement is based on the arbitrary distinctions of personal intelligence and perceptiveness and nothing to do with morality.

Tindal and the 18th century Deists (by and large) felt that God was indeed was the author of human morality - but that the moral code endowed by the Creator was self-evident (a notion you might recognize from the Declaration of Independence).

It is equally obvious that this "self-evident" moral code has evolved significantly since the early 18th century - we no longer believe that it is OK to keep other humans as slaves for example. And it has continued to evolve since the latest update was reportedly handed down through a 19th century Persian nobleman. We no longer (at least most 'enlightened' people at any rate) believe that homosexuality is inherently 'sinful', for example.

"Revelation" is an encapsulation of how far a particular religious community has come up to the time of that "revelation" - it is not a prescription for the future moral evolution of humanity - even if that is what it pretends to be. Revelation is out of date the minute it is scratched onto a tablet - which is why it has to be continually "interpreted".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How many times have we been through this? You do not have evidence, what you have is belief
I already said I do not want to argue about this anymore. :(

What I have is evidence because it fits the definition of evidence. It indicates that my belief is true.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:

I never said I had proof.
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

You can call it a belief if you want to. It is a belief because I do not have verifiable evidence (proof) that establishes as a fact that my belief is true.

Nevertheless it is a belief that I know is true. I do not need objective proof in order to know it is true. I just know.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No, I cannot prove it, but I have plenty of evidence that "indicates" that Baha'u'llah was a real Messenger of God, so that is how I know.

Same old story we hear all the time.

I do not need to make excuses to you or to anyone else because I did not do anything wrong. I have free will so I freely decided what to believe in after doing the necessary investigation of Baha'u'llah and the religion that He established.

The same goes for you and everyone else. Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve whatever they want to. They do not need any excuses.

It is not about doing anything wrong, it is about providing justification.
 
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