Why doesn't Islam accept Bahai?

[AmbiguousGuy]

Oh? Did you try registering yourself as the newest prophet at your local Bahai center?

No, but I have informed several Baha'i online that I am the newest prophet and ready to replace Baha'u'llah's old Truth with my new Truth.

Alas... I've been entirely rejected.

What's a (true) prophet to do?

 

[Nakosis]

I recall seeing a number of times, some Muslim posters who speak something along the lines of how how the Tawrat was for its time and the Injeel for its time.

I was wondering, by that logic, why couldn't the Quraan be for its time which has passed and now is the time of Bahai?

I think to some degree the later religions invalidate the prior.

Though the later religion usually takes great pains to claim it doesn't do so. You do want converts so it doesn't help to alienate an entire religious group.

There is always a power struggle for the minds of the masses. There is power in the politics of religion. To accept Bahai there would be a change in the power structure of the Islamic world.

Also there'd be a lot of Yayhoo prophets come along wanting to change things if you didn't protect the original prophets words somehow. Claiming to be the last and final prophet keeps things unaltered for a while.

 

[Pastek]

I recall seeing a number of times, some Muslim posters who speak something along the lines of how how the Tawrat was for its time and the Injeel for its time.

I was wondering, by that logic, why couldn't the Quraan be for its time which has passed and now is the time of Bahai?

Because God said :

33.40 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

And :

5.3 (...) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

And :

3.85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

There's many hadiths were Muhammad talked about the return of Jesus but he never talked about an other prophet than him.

43.59 Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.

43.61 And indeed, he will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

So this is a confirmation of his return but nothing in the Quran about a new one.

Muslims believe that there's no prophet after Muhammad (exept Jesus who is just returning and not bringing a new religion).
The prophet Muhammad again, never talked about any new prophet/messenger after him : not a single hadith.

 

[FearGod]

I recall seeing a number of times, some Muslim posters who speak something along the lines of how how the Tawrat was for its time and the Injeel for its time.

I was wondering, by that logic, why couldn't the Quraan be for its time which has passed and now is the time of Bahai?

And whats the problem,you can convert to Baha'ullah if you found it right.

It is according to each person understanding,for example Jews doesn't believe Jesus as a prophet of God whereas some others had believed him to be so and then they worshipped him as God or the only son of God or to be the 3 person in 1,then came prophet Mohammed to inform people and to warn them that the hour is approaching with many signs that they will observe and the quran and some hadiths confirm one important sign which will declare the 2nd return of Jesus and which is that Jews will be powerful and will rule the world,God will direct the Jews to Palestine and they will control Jerusalem,exactly as we can see it today.

So no chances for any messengers except the return of Jesus and signs should appear before his appearance,even the smaller signs such as that people will compete each others for the taller building and that wasn't yet known as we know it nowadays.

For Muslims,they regard Baha'ullah and Ahmed Mirza Gulam as fake prophets and deceivers.

Thats our belief and you can choose your own belief.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Because God said :

33.40 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

The correct translation is:

"Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but is God’s Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets. And God has indeed full knowledge of everything." 33:40
al-Ahzab 33:40

It depends how the term 'seal of prophets' is interpreted!

The word that is used in the verse which is translated as Seal, is 'Khatam'. Khatam was a stone on rings that could be uses to stamp (seal) a document.
But that requires some investigation as what was intended by the Term 'Seal" in Quran.

So, it is merely an interpretation that Seal means 'Last' or 'End'

In fact in Bible it is said:

"... on Jesus, God has set his Seal" John 6:27
(you can see the whole verse, I shortened it for brevity)

It does not mean, That God sealed His revelation and ended that with Jesus.
In this sense, 'Seal' means 'confirm'
One of the Missions of Muhammad was to confirm previous Prophets, hence the term 'Seal of Prophets"
In another sense, Muhammad was the Ornament of Prophets. Like an ornament on a ring, as an analogy.

For example Muhammad called Ali, 'Seal of Believers" ('Khatamul Auliya) that does not mean, He was the last believer.
Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;[33]

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."[34]
​

See here: Khatam an-Nabuwwah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Then after this we come to investigating Hadithes. There are in fact Hadithes when Muhammad said, after Him no prophet comes, but Muhammad did not say these Hadithes as an interpretation of the term 'seal of prophets'. Therefore we need to understand what did Muhammad meant to say within the context of Hadith:

For example:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number."

The above Hadith says that, after Moses and before Jesus, there came a number of Minor Prophets as a promoter of Religion of Moses. These Prophets were Aaron, Solomon, David,...etc. They did not have a Revelation from God with a New Book and Laws, but they had come to teach Moses Laws and guide Jews. So, the Hadith deals with prophethood within the dispensation of Islam. similar to Prophets within the dispensation of Moses. Muhammad said after Him, in Islam only Khalifs come, not prophets.

That does not mean that the Revelation of God ended, even as God said in Quran:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved."
al-A`raf 7:35



"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of God be exhausted (in the writing): for God is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom."
Luqman 31:27


Obviously the above shows the Quran is not the final revelation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

5.3 (...) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

But As we look at the topic of the completion of religion in the light of the whole Qur'an, we find that religion is described as being completed with regards to previous revelations than Quran, and not just Quranic Revelation. Every time God revealed a Religion, it was Perfected for its own time.

For instance, we find that God's favor was completed at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6

We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:

Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

According to the Qur'an, the completion of the favor is also conditional upon the individual's success in obeying and fearing God:

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
- Qur'an 2:150

Some argue however, that while "completion" of the favor may not be unique to Muslims, "perfection" of the religion is.

This is a matter of interpretation, and it certainly is the prerogative of the translators to have chosen the word "perfected" for the Arabic word "akmaltu". For Arabs (and others familiar with the language) however, while the word definitely conveys the meaning of perfection, and wholeness, it is also very often used to mean "completion" as we find in verses: 2:185, 2:196, 2:233, and 16:25 among others.

This same theme has also caused followers of other religions to believe that their religion was complete, not only for the duration it was destined, but for all times. For example we see that for the Christians, the favors of God were also completed on humanity through Jesus:

"And ye are complete in Him [i.e. Jesus] , which is the head of all principality and power"
- The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 2

"Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God."
- The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 4

It is also necessary to remember, that both completeness and perfection are among God's attributes, integral to His Essence (magnified be His name). It would be blasphemous to doubt that any of His actions and doings or favors, would be anything but complete and perfect.


Therefore As it is revealed in Quran, each Age has its Book:

"Apostles truly have we already sent before thee, and wives and offspring have we given them. Yet no apostle had come with miracles unless by the leave of God. To each age its Book." ar-Ra`d 13:38

According to this verse Quran was a Book for its own Age, and is not the last Book.


Now we have to ask ourselves without denying the Reality:
Did the Worldwide Community of Muslims kept its unity and walked according to the Quran?

“Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like!”​

Muhammad 47:38

Muhammad was asked who were the people He referred to as “another people”, who were to replace the Arabs? One of His famous followers, Salman Farsi, a Persian, was sitting near Him. Muhammad patted the legs of Salman and said: “He and his people” and He continued: “By the True One, in Whose hands is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it.” (This tradition is accepted by Sunnis and Shiites and is included by Nasafi in his book, Vol 4, page 169, as well as by Muhammad Farid Vajdi, in his book, third edition, page 676)​

Also Here:

The Life of Imam Abu Hanifah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

3.85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

When we look at the meaning of the term 'Islam' in the light of the Whole Quran, we see, by Islam is not meant 'Muhammadism' or Quranic Revelation in particular.

Islam is the surrender or resignation of one's will to God's Will as expressed by God's latest Messenger. At the time of Muhammad, therefore, those who resigned themselves to the latest Manifestation of the Will of God through the Qur'án, were called Muslims. But the Qur'án does not stop there in the use and application of the word "Islam" or "Muslim" For example Noah is called a Muslim (Yunus - 12:71-72). Abraham, Jacob and his children are likewise called Muslims (Baqurah- 2:130-132).. Moses and His followers are also calledMuslims (Yunus -12:83) and (A'raf-7:125). Finally the Disciples of Christ are called Muslims, and here is the text:

"And when I revealed unto the Disciples. (of Christ), 'Believe on Me and on My Sent One,' they said 'We believe; and bear Thou witness that we are Muslims." (Ma'idah-5:111)

Thus, we see that what the Author of the Qur'án meant by "Islam" was the Universal Religion of God, past, present and future. Such -, universal religion is, of course, the only "true religion" accepted by God, as the aforementioned verses testify. Islam, in its true and universal sense, has now found expression in the Bahá'í Faith. Let the sincere Muslim, therefore, take these verses, defining the meaning of Islam, as a stopping stone, not as a stumbling block in his search for truth.
Some Notes on Bahá'í Proofs Based on the Qur'an

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's many hadiths were Muhammad talked about the return of Jesus but he never talked about an other prophet than him.

43.59 Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.

43.61 And indeed, he will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

So this is a confirmation of his return but nothing in the Quran about a new one.

Muslims believe that there's no prophet after Muhammad (exept Jesus who is just returning and not bringing a new religion).
The prophet Muhammad again, never talked about any new prophet/messenger after him : not a single hadith.

According to Quran:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved."
al-A`raf 7:35

Since all Messengers of God, spiritually the same and one, even as Muhammad said 'I am all the Prophets', and therefore they have one common purpose, that is to reveal the Will and Attributes of God into the world, each one of them is the return of all other Prophets. That is the meaning of return of Christ, which was fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.
You can read about fulfilled Prophecies here:
Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I recall seeing a number of times, some Muslim posters who speak something along the lines of how how the Tawrat was for its time and the Injeel for its time.

I was wondering, by that logic, why couldn't the Quraan be for its time which has passed and now is the time of Bahai?

I believe the obstacles they have, comes from misunderstandings of Quran that has its roots in misinterpretation imposed by some of the Islamic Religious Leaders.

 

[FearGod]

And whats the problem,you can convert to Baha'ullah if you found it right.

It is according to each person understanding,for example Jews doesn't believe Jesus as a prophet of God whereas some others had believed him to be so and then they worshipped him as God or the only son of God or to be the 3 person in 1,then came prophet Mohammed to inform people and to warn them that the hour is approaching with many signs that they will observe and the quran and some hadiths confirm one important sign which will declare the 2nd return of Jesus and which is that Jews will be powerful and will rule the world,God will direct the Jews to Palestine and they will control Jerusalem,exactly as we can see it today.

So no chances for any messengers except the return of Jesus and signs should appear before his appearance,even the smaller signs such as that people will compete each others for the taller building and that wasn't yet known as we know it nowadays.

For Muslims,they regard Baha'ullah and Ahmed Mirza Gulam as fake prophets and deceivers.

Thats our belief and you can choose your own belief.

I absolutely agree with you.

There are many signs that should appear before the 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh and Bahaullah came before any signs and hence according to what we have in hand he was a liar according to Muslims.

And it is ridiculous that 2 prophets came with the same time and each has his own message and claiming to be the promised one.

For me as a muslim and talking only about myself,i prefer to be an atheist than being a bahai and to be fooled with his fake message.

 

[Tumah]

I absolutely agree with you.

There are many signs that should appear before the 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh and Bahaullah came before any signs and hence according to what we have in hand he was a liar according to Muslims.

And it is ridiculous that 2 prophets came with the same time and each has his own message and claiming to be the promised one.

For me as a muslim and talking only about myself,i prefer to be an atheist than being a bahai and to be fooled with his fake message.

I don't understand why you say this.

From Jesus to Muhammad was only about 500 years. Yet you believe that was enough time for the New Testament to get mistakes in it. Between Muhammad and Bahá'u'lláh there is 1200 years. That must be enough time for their to fall mistakes in the Quran too.

 

[FearGod]

I don't understand why you say this.

From Jesus to Muhammad was only about 500 years. Yet you believe that was enough time for the New Testament to get mistakes in it. Between Muhammad and Bahá'u'lláh there is 1200 years. That must be enough time for their to fall mistakes in the Quran too.

I follow logic and not number of years.

There are many signs that precedes the 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh,and since i can see them happening nowadays then i am sure 100% that Bahaullah was a fake messenger.

Did Jews control Jerusalem prior to Bahaullah ?
Did the world control the goods and currency of the people of Iraq before Bahaullah ?
Did the people compete with tall buidings ?
Did people listen to music and songs while in home ?
Did homosexuality become common ?

[youtube]UBQiCpjY49E[/youtube]
15 Signs of the Last Day The Proof That Islam Is The Truth Abdur Raheem Green Like - YouTube

 

[Tumah]

I follow logic and not number of years.

There are many signs that precedes the 2nd coming of Jesus pbuh,and since i can see them happening nowadays then i am sure 100% that Bahaullah was a fake messenger.

Did Jews control Jerusalem prior to Bahaullah ?
Did the world control the goods and currency of the people of Iraq before Bahaullah ?
Did the people compete with tall buidings ?
Did people listen to music and songs while in home ?
Did homosexuality become common ?

[youtube]UBQiCpjY49E[/youtube]
15 Signs of the Last Day The Proof That Islam Is The Truth Abdur Raheem Green Like - YouTube

But maybe those are some of the mistakes, just like you claim are in the Tawrat and Injeel today.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What is the difference between a prophet and a messenger?

The difference is like the difference between Moses and other minor Prophets in Hebrew Scriptures. In Quranic term Moses was a Messenger prophet, but the minor successors after Moses were prophets. To Moses God spoke directly, and Moses established a New Religion or a New covenant. But prophets like Aaron, were only promoters, but God did not speak to them directly, face to face. To them He spoke in dreams and visions only.
Muhammad said His successors within Islam won't be prophets but will be Imams (or Khalifs). That is, until next revelation of God, within Islamic Revelation, there won't be anymore prophets. During the Prophetic cycle from Adam to Muhammad prophets appeared. Muhammad ended the prophetic cycle, then the Bab who was the Promised one of Islam (Mahdi) opened a new cycle called 'fulfillment', in which only Manifestations of God (Messengers) will appear every about 1000 years.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't understand why you say this.

From Jesus to Muhammad was only about 500 years. Yet you believe that was enough time for the New Testament to get mistakes in it. Between Muhammad and Bahá'u'lláh there is 1200 years. That must be enough time for their to fall mistakes in the Quran too.

The Qur'an, it is said, is much too central to the Islamic Faith for that to make sense to Muslims.

You might as well ask a Christian whether it is not already time to consider Jesus a legend as opposed to an actual man (or God). Or, for that matter, ask an Orthodox Jew whether they don't think that it may be time to let go of the idea of the importance of Jewish ancestry and reliance on the Torah and Talmud.

Or so it seems to me, anyway. I'm willing to be set to rights.

 

[Tumah]

The Qur'an, it is said, is much too central to the Islamic Faith for that to make sense to Muslims.

You might as well ask a Christian whether it is not already time to consider Jesus a legend as opposed to an actual man (or God). Or, for that matter, ask an Orthodox Jew whether they don't think that it may be time to let go of the idea of the importance of Jewish ancestry and reliance on the Torah and Talmud.

Or so it seems to me, anyway. I'm willing to be set to rights.

I think its a little different. Jews aren't saying that some previous tradition is invalid and our is the real one. And Christians aren't saying that some other prophet that preceded Jesus and claimed divinity wasn't the real god and theirs is the real one.

Muslims though, already believe that it is possible for mistakes to enter Scriptural texts as they make that claim for Judaism and Christianity. Yet not for themselves even though more than twice the time has passed since what they believe was the previous revelation.

I understand you are drawing a parallel in regards to the centrality of the Quran to Isalm, rather that the logic in its acceptance. But still.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Qur'an, it is said, is much too central to the Islamic Faith for that to make sense to Muslims.

You might as well ask a Christian whether it is not already time to consider Jesus a legend as opposed to an actual man (or God). Or, for that matter, ask an Orthodox Jew whether they don't think that it may be time to let go of the idea of the importance of Jewish ancestry and reliance on the Torah and Talmud.

Or so it seems to me, anyway. I'm willing to be set to rights.

The Islamic beliefs are not only from Quran, but they are significantly related to Hadithes. The Muslims themselves do not agree which hadithes are true. Sunnis have their own Hadithes. Shias have their own Hadithes and Suffies their own. But each group does not accept the other groups Hadithes. Quranists reject all Hadithes, and accept only Quran.....
For most Muslims understanding and interpretations of Quran comes from Hadithes, and therefore each group interpret Quran differently. Now as regards to Prophecies, many of these are from Hadithes which the Muslims do not agree on their authenticity.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think its a little different. Jews aren't saying that some previous tradition is invalid and our is the real one. And Christians aren't saying that some other prophet that preceded Jesus and claimed divinity wasn't the real god and theirs is the real one.

Muslims though, already believe that it is possible for mistakes to enter Scriptural texts as they make that claim for Judaism and Christianity. Yet not for themselves even though more than twice the time has passed since what they believe was the previous revelation.

I understand you are drawing a parallel in regards to the centrality of the Quran to Isalm, rather that the logic in its acceptance. But still.

When you put it that way... it does sound a bit daring, to say the least. Courting with chauvinism, ethnocentrism, or just plain dogmatic certainty even.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Islamic beliefs are not only from Quran, but they are significantly related to Hadithes. The Muslims themselves do not agree which hadithes are true. Sunnis have their own Hadithes. Shias have their own Hadithes and Suffies their own. But each group does not accept the other groups Hadithes. Quranists reject all Hadithes, and accept only Quran.....
For most Muslims understanding and interpretations of Quran comes from Hadithes, and therefore each group interpret Quran differently. Now as regards to Prophecies, many of these are from Hadithes which the Muslims do not agree on their authenticity.

While that seems to be basically true, I think it is also far less of a factor than it is often made to be.

No scripture - and certainly not the Qur'an - can be quite that perfect for all people at all times under any circunstances. No scripture can substitute for actual religious wisdom and discernment.

It harms religion and most of all it harms religious people to act as if scripture could be quite that transcendent.

 

[Pastek]

The correct translation is:

"Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but is God’s Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets. And God has indeed full knowledge of everything." 33:40
al-Ahzab 33:40

The word that is used in the verse which is translated as Seal, is 'Khatam'. Khatam was a stone on rings that could be uses to stamp (seal) a document.

I use the Sahih translation but you're right the word is "seal", anyway for muslims it's the same.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number."

The above Hadith says that, after Moses and before Jesus, there came a number of Minor Prophets as a promoter of Religion of Moses. These Prophets were Aaron, Solomon, David,...etc. They did not have a Revelation from God with a New Book and Laws, but they had come to teach Moses Laws and guide Jews. So, the Hadith deals with prophethood within the dispensation of Islam. similar to Prophets within the dispensation of Moses. Muhammad said after Him, in Islam only Khalifs come, not prophets.

In Islam the prophets like Abraham, Noah or Solomon ... are not considered as "minor" prophets. Also, David have the Psalms (Zabour).

As Muhammad said there will be no more prophets after him, i don't understand your interpretation of that hadith.

That does not mean that the Revelation of God ended, even as God said in Quran:

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved."
al-A`raf 7:35

Yes : Muhammad and Jesus.

I remember also that i've read hadiths about false prophets who will come after him, the Prophet never said someone else will come -again exept the coming of Jesus who was said many times by the Prophet (saw) :


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."

(735) 56. Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

(700) 59. Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi) from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books