Do not put words in my mouth. I just said what I think. I understand that you don't agree, but do not put words in my mouth.
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Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
This is from a post I made in a previous thread:
Origin of the Palestinians - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The sources are all linked in the above excerpt for anyone who wants to look at some studies regarding Palestinian DNA and ancestry, which indeed include ancient ties to the Levant and Middle East in general.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
As I expected, you didn't answer the question but just skirted around it. And I note that you have blamed the Israelis for basically everything. There's a name for that. Israel has it's own set of malicious "nutters", and I don't defend them like your making of excuse after excuse for Hamas and the Palestinians that support them.
Most people I put on ignore only for a limited amount of time
Go ahead and call me an "antisemite". I don't give a damn. It's become a useless smear word, like "racist", "Nazi", etc. Even Jews who break from the narrative are smeared with it. So it means nothing at all. Arabs are Semites and even all Jews aren't Semitic, anyway, so who is the real "antisemite"? Come up with a better argument.
I answered your stupid question, and I don't defend Hamas. Stop trying to lie. Hamas is financed by Israel, and most Palestinians don't really support them. They didn't even win a majority of the election when they were voted in. They were mostly elected out of anger towards Fatah for their corruption. However, I will always support the right of oppressed and occupied people to use force against the oppressors and occupiers. Palestinians have the moral and legal right to pick up arms against Israeli forces.
Now when are you going to condemn Israel's slaughter of civilians and destruction of Gaza's civilian infrastructure? I won't hold my breath.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oh, so there are no anti-Semites, racists, or NAZI's that ever have or now exist. Right.
Hamas was in part financed by Israel so as to hopefully be able to stand on their own, but Iran didn't want that to succeed.
But Israel doesn't have that right, right?
Are you a pacifist? If not, then your anger and blame is not only highly selective but based on ignorance. Have you ever been there? studied it? studied the Qur'an and/or the Hadith?
Ya, I think I've seen enough.
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That's not what I said. The term is thrown around so much to insult political opponents that its meaning and impact is reduced. Who cares if someone calls you that now. When you're calling anti-Zionist Jewish people "antisemites", you've jumped the shark.Oh, so there are no anti-Semites, racists, or NAZI's that ever have or now exist. Right.
Yes, it is financed by Israel. Why don't you do some research.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel
‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.
No, they don't. They are neither occupied or oppressed. They are the occupiers and oppressors. They have no legal right to occupy Palestinian land or subject them to an almost 20 year siege in which the whole population are imprisoned in Gaza and all their movements controlled by Israel. Bombing refugee camps and destroying civilian infrastructure is illegal. Instead of actually doing precision missions to take out Hamas leadership and military (like we did to take out Bin Laden and the leader of Daesh), they choose to drop 2,000 llb bombs on residential neighborhoods, toppling the buildings and killing or maiming everyone inside.
We have more than enough evidence of Israel's genocidal intent because the morons go on TV and openly proclaim their intention to destroy Gaza, inflicting maximum damage, as a form of collective punishment. We are passed the point of being able to deny what is going on. They openly admit it! Nuttyahoo views the Palestinians as Amalek!
We have the Internet and ground footage video. We don't need to physically go anywhere in order to understand anything. I own multiple copies of the Qur'an and am familiar with the Hadith. What's your point? It's like asking if you're familiar with the Tanach or Talmud. But I'm going to guess you don't want to go there.Are you a pacifist? If not, then your anger and blame is not only highly selective but based on ignorance. Have you ever been there? studied it? studied the Qur'an and/or the Hadith?
Me, too. Go away and leave me alone. If I never have to reply to you again, it would be too soon.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Living as Stateless Palestinians in Jordan
Israel’s war on Gaza that erupted in 2023 continues a long history of systemic displacement of Palestinians.
www.sapiens.org
i think this is the issue:Living as Stateless Palestinians in Jordan
Israel’s war on Gaza that erupted in 2023 continues a long history of systemic displacement of Palestinians.
Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?
Throughout history, when one side of a war is losing, it's almost always the case that the losing side surrenders. Why isn't the world calling on Hamas to surrender? If "the world" truly has humanitarian goals, the best way to stop civilian casualties in this war would be for Hamas to surrender.
www.religiousforums.com
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
It's a great question. It's asked rather frequently at our dinner table. My wife finds this to be the proof positive of antisemitism. I take a different point of view. To put it simply... people like simple, people like easy. It's easy and simple to criticize Israel, it's hard to criticize the Palestinians. The Palestinians are suffering. So world leaders don't want to kick them while they're down. Basically.
The facts, at this point are completely being ignored in favor of being kind. It's cruel to point out that Palestinians are in the majority at fault for their own condition, because, so many of them are currently suffering. Pointing out that their resistance to Israel, aka Hamas, is a shell game will only increase their suffering and anger. It's true. The Palestinian anti-Israel narrative is a hoax. At best it's mythology with very loose connection to reality. If the world were to call for Hamas to cease fire, then when asked why, the reasons given would annihilate the Palestinian's origin story. It dismisses their struggles and devalues their sacrifices to date.
The world does not recognize ( or care ) about the deaths of innocent Israelis. They think we will slog on regardless. They take for granted the many times Jews have been targeted for extinction. They are in denial, or are ignorant that the Palestinian identity requires relentless never-ending **violent** opposition to Israel's existence. And since Hamas is the avatar for the Palestinian identity, their resistance, the world cannot condemn Hamas without delegitimatizing Palestine.
So, it's easier to condone Hamas. The threat to Israel is denied. It's assumed that Israel will not be destroyed by them. Hamas is viewed as the weaker of the two. And it's difficult to be insensitive to the Palestinian's myths, even though they have proven time after time after time to be violent, extremely dangerous, and most important, false.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Unironic pro-genocidal rhetoric there, sandwiched in-between utterly asinine observation and blatant propaganda.
This whole post was just a round-about way of blaming Palestinians for their own mass murder and ethnic cleansing, of denying the reality of what the Israeli state is doing, and of ignoring any and all culpability for how the Israeli state CHOOSES to respond to terrorism with more terrorism. All the while, explicitly denying historical genocide. The Nakba was not a myth. The mass displacement of Palestinians is not the myth. The ever-increasing settler colonialism of the west bank is not a myth.
And to have the gall to suggest "the world does not recognise (or care) about the deaths of innocent Israelis" when you have the most powerful country in the world vetoing practically any UN decision which would stop Israel's actions, actively involved in providing not only arms but one of the world's most elaborate and robust civil defence structures is just plain absurd. It must be incredibly gratifying claiming you're the victim while under the impenetrable defence of the world's biggest super power and simultaneously firing rockets into an area densely packed with civilians.
Pro-tip: being anti-war crimes does not mean being anti-Israel or pro-Hamas. Israel had every opportunity to demonstrate to the world that it could respond appropriately to a terrible atrocity committed against them and pursue justice in accordance with international law. Instead, the Israeli state CHOSE to commit war crimes and has killed tens of thousands of civilians. When the state made that choice, it forfeited its right to claim to care about civilian deaths, or the hostages, or being the victim. It decided the best route to respond to being a victim was to become the perpetrator, and then pretend it's the victim when people point that out.
You crow about your victim-hood while you call Palestinians, as a group, defined by their violent opposition to Israel. As far as I'm concerned, the blood of both Israeli and Palestinian civilians is on your hands, and hands of everyone who thinks like you to perpetuate this decades-long ethnic war through dehumanisation and historical revisionism.
Disgusting. You should be ashamed.
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(Coloring mine.)
Did you intend the above "they" to refer to Palestinians, the people, or to the perceived "myths"?
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Thank you for the question. That is very kind of you to ask.
Coloring mine. "They" is immediately following and referring to the myths. I had thought this would be clear due to the immediate proximity of the pronoun to its referent as well as the inclusion of the pronoun and the referent in the same sentence.
Well. It couldn't be people. People are not false. That would be a category error.
Thanks for clarifying.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Was it actually unclear, or did you have a knee jerk reaction to what I wrote?
It's common for those of us who feel strongly that Palestine, the nation, is at fault ( in the majority ) for its current condition to be labeled "racist", even though our point of view is valid, well researched. Ultimately our aspirations are in the benefit for everyone in the region, but, it's much much simpler to ignore what we're saying and demonize.
Again, the influencing motivation is: "simple wins".
Is that what's happened? You had a knee jerk reaction in spite of the clarity of what was written?
I didn't find it clear. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked.
I'm not interested in debating the thread topic with you, for multiple reasons.
When unsure, I think asking people what they mean is much better than rigidly sticking to an initial reading of their posts.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
What I was responding to was, your post that said "And why doesn’t Jordan and Egypt want to help the refugees? If “the world” truly has humanitarian goals, they would assist, feed and help the Palestinians in these two countries until Hamas was removed."
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Why not? It was written clearly. It was written clearly yet you could not comprehend the english language? As I showed you it was impossible to interpret the statement in a manner which was racist. One would need to completely warp what was written in order to force it to be a racist statement.
Regardless of your desire to debate, here you are participating in a debate thread.
I think your reaction before and now is an excellent example for @icehorse to help answer the question which was asked. You have provided us with an opportunity to understand the underlying mechanisms which result in well intended people skewing their perceptions in order to perpetuate their own false, yet personally rewarding, hateful conclusions regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Are you aware that human perception, especially sight, is in large part shaped by anticipation and expectation? That is one of the beneficial effects reported by those who practice darmic meditation. The anticipation and expectation which is shaping their perceptions pause. At those times, they can see clearly.
What I wrote was not racist, it could not have been racist, but something inside you desired it to be racist, or desired me to be racist, so deeply that you were unable to comprehend english? The alternative is too painful, too confusing? The anti-israel narrative is so deeply woven into your world-view, without it, your world view cannot survive? Your "world" falls apart if I'm right and you're wrong about the Palestinian myths? Perhaps the anti-israel mythology is an inherent part of your personal identity? Without it you would not know who you are? Without it you would not have a heritage, a legacy, a lineage? It's like a religion in which you have been indoctrinated since birth?
Mr. DebateSlayer, I recall that you are Egyptian, indoctrinated somewhat recently into their military? But, now I'm curious. Do you have Palestinian heritage? Could that be the reason why it is so painful ( uncomfortable ) to consider that the Palestinian myths are actually false? Or conversely why it is so rewarding to fabricate an example which supports your own anti-israel indoctrination?
What a bizarre, vitriolic attempt at armchair psychology. I don't have Palestinian heritage, and I only spent a few months in conscription before I was released on medical grounds. My views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict were and remain unrelated to my experience with conscription.
It seems to me from the above that your viewpoint has little to no room for someone to sympathize or empathize with Palestinians unless there's some supposed defect in their reasoning or background. If anything, it underlines why I find it pointless to try to have any kind of productive or reasonable discussion with you about the subject.
Feel free to have the last word, since I'm content to simply scroll past such off-kilter and unproductive posts.