Why don't you understand the Trinity?

[Shadow Wolf]

There was actually a whole Christology discussion after Jesus died spanning centuries. The seed of the Trinitarian concept came about when Tertullian was debating a modalist. The council of Nicaea came about because Athanasius and Arius were having a debate. It seems more likely that the Bible confused many people, and that can be seen today where people are still arguing over it. They were trying to solve a debate. Maybe the Bible left it open to debate for a reason. The biggest problem with the Trinity is that people say one must be a Trinitarian in order to be a Christian rather than saying it is one option out of many possibilities.

Yeah. Exactly. Those who came after, those who Jesus spoke about when he said "don't listen to them."

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yeah. Exactly. Those who came after, those who Jesus spoke about when he said "don't listen to them."

Also, I would think cult leaders who claim to be God, the Messiah and put themselves in place of Jesus. I would say the Pope and the Clergy fill that role as well.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@calm this thread is just a re-do of your previous threads that got boring and slipped down from the 'New Threads' list. The claim that people are body, soul and spirit is debatable from canon but isn't expressly mentioned in the canon. It is also an imported idea that comes either from church traditions or other sources. Then on top of it the suggestion is preposterous that its the foundation of understanding the trinity. It's no different from claiming three legged tables explain the trinity. Trinity is philosophical and attempts to delve into ideas about divinity through reason. Body soul spirit are also as I mentioned debatable from canon but not written directly about.

 

[JJ50]

Also, I would think cult leaders who claim to be God, the Messiah and put themselves in place of Jesus. I would say the Pope and the Clergy fill that role as well.

Humans have created all the gods, imo. I don't think there are any external entities, and even if there were any I don't think they are in contact with humans.

 

[Brickjectivity]

We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit.

The simple Truth is;

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Hello. Words are spirit. How biblical. How utterly ignored by the OP.

 

[dybmh]

Words are spirit

Well said. Puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Humans have created all the gods, imo. I don't think there are any external entities, and even if there were any I don't think they are in contact with humans.

Humans either created all the gods, or at best only one view is right and the rest were created by humans. One of the things I am looking into is the evolution of religion, and there certainly are links between, for instance, the Monotheists and the Pagan Gods and how they worshipped. I personally cannot comprehend how there cannot be an external intelligence of some sort. And I won't assume anything about what that entity has or has not done until I see it for myself.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What exactly is the problem?

We people are a small trinity too. We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet we are not each 3 people but only one human.

Are there a soul and a spirit?
Yes.
The Bible mentions and differentiates spirit, soul and body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


What is the difference between body, soul and spirit?
The body is the physical part, you can touch it and see it. The soul is your personality (will, conscience, mind, thoughts ...) you can not touch or see the soul and yet it feels pains like the body. The difference to the body is that one can not hurt the soul with blows but with insulting words. With the spirit, you can communicate with God(holy spirit).


It is the same with God, he consists of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet it is not three Gods but only one God. The body(physical part) of God is Jesus, the soul(personality) of God is the Father and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Now you ask yourself what Jesus was before he became human (body). The answer is, he did not exist and did exist anyway. Jesus as person did not exist but his nature(God) was always there. It's like people. If somebody asks a human, how long do you exist? Then you have 2 answer possibilities. The first one is: since my birth. The second is: Since Adam and Eve. The first answer is related to the person himself, the second is related to the nature. All people are one nature, namely: human. So it is with God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit, they are one nature, namely: God. So, if you ask Jesus, how long do you exist? Then he also has several answer possibilities, but there is 1 difference with Jesus, he consists of 2 beings, he is the son of a human and the son of God, he is 100% human and 100% God at the same time. So, if you ask him: How long do you exist? Then he have 3 possible answers, the first one is: Since my birth (as the person himself) the second is: Since Adam and Eve (as human), the third is: I have no beginning (as God).

Is Jesus God?

1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
2. Jesus is called God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)(Hebrews 1:8)(Isaiah 9:6)
3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
4. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
5. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
6. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
7. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
8. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
9. God will judge the world (Psalm 98: 9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
10. God is the rock (1 Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
11. God is the Lord of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
12. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44: 6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
13. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
14. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does the father honor (John 5:23)
15. Jesus is the Creator (Romans 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
16. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
17. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)

Is the Holy spirit a person?
Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
• recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
• bears witness to God (John 15:26)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
• announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
• talks about the things of the God (Jn 16:13)
• glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
• speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25)
• encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
• prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16:6)
• forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16:7)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
• affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
• helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
• uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
• explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
• distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
• writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3:3)
• foretells the future (1 Tim 4:1)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
• resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
• speaks to meetings (Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22)
• explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
• call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29,30)
• be lied to (Acts 5:3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5:9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Eph 4:30)
• reviled (Heb 10:29)

Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is also God.
Many of the quoted scriptures already make it clear that the mind is not just a person but also God. But because this point is so important, I would like to shed some light on it.
First of all, the Spirit is explicitly called the Spirit of God in Holy Scripture (Gen. 1: 2, Mt 3:16).
Acts 5:3-4 (emphasis added) is very clear: "And Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and took away the proceeds of the field? ... You have not lied to humans, but to God. "
more:
• omnipresent (Ps 139,7)
• omniscient (Isa 40:13; 1 Cor 2:11)
• Almighty (Job 26:13)
• sovereign (John 3:8; 1 Cor 12: 4-11)
• eternal (Heb 9.14)

I very much appreciate your hard work and good doctrine here, but what burns me is people spend more time debating the trinity than explaining the GOSPEL. As a Jewish believer, it took me some time after salvation to understand the trinity, but the main need for me was SALVATION.

 

[Sanzbir]

In concept it makes perfect sense that it could be the case, I just don't think it is. Certain passages of the Bible make no sense under the understanding that Jesus is literally God.

My main concern is:

Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Which under the trinitarian understanding is "Me, if I am willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not of My will, but Mine be done."

If God = Jesus, literally speaking, God's Will and Jesus' Will should be the same thing. So what sense would there be in Jesus asking himself to deliver himself from suffering, not by his will, but by his will??

 

[David1967]

What exactly is the problem?

We people are a small trinity too. We people consist of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet we are not each 3 people but only one human.

Are there a soul and a spirit?
Yes.
The Bible mentions and differentiates spirit, soul and body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


What is the difference between body, soul and spirit?
The body is the physical part, you can touch it and see it. The soul is your personality (will, conscience, mind, thoughts ...) you can not touch or see the soul and yet it feels pains like the body. The difference to the body is that one can not hurt the soul with blows but with insulting words. With the spirit, you can communicate with God(holy spirit).


It is the same with God, he consists of a body, a soul and a spirit. And yet it is not three Gods but only one God. The body(physical part) of God is Jesus, the soul(personality) of God is the Father and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Now you ask yourself what Jesus was before he became human (body). The answer is, he did not exist and did exist anyway. Jesus as person did not exist but his nature(God) was always there. It's like people. If somebody asks a human, how long do you exist? Then you have 2 answer possibilities. The first one is: since my birth. The second is: Since Adam and Eve. The first answer is related to the person himself, the second is related to the nature. All people are one nature, namely: human. So it is with God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit, they are one nature, namely: God. So, if you ask Jesus, how long do you exist? Then he also has several answer possibilities, but there is 1 difference with Jesus, he consists of 2 beings, he is the son of a human and the son of God, he is 100% human and 100% God at the same time. So, if you ask him: How long do you exist? Then he have 3 possible answers, the first one is: Since my birth (as the person himself) the second is: Since Adam and Eve (as human), the third is: I have no beginning (as God).

Is Jesus God?

1. Jesus is omnipotent (Revelation 1:8) (Matthew 28:18)
2. Jesus is called God (John 20:28-29) (Romans 9:5) (1 John 5:20)(Hebrews 1:8)(Isaiah 9:6)
3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
4. God became flesh (human) and Jesus is this flesh (John 1:1+14) (1 Timothy 3:16)
5. Jesus is worshiped (Acts 7:59-60)
6. Jesus accepts prayers (John 14:13-14)
7. Jesus and the father are one (John 10:30)
8. God is the only Redeemer (Isaiah 43:11) = Jesus is the Redeemer (Luke 2:11)
9. God will judge the world (Psalm 98: 9) = Jesus is the judge (Matthew 25:31-46)
10. God is the rock (1 Samuel 2:2) = Jesus is the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4)
11. God is the Lord of Lords (Deuteronomy 10:17) = Jesus is the Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:16)
12. God is the first and the last (Isaiah 44: 6) = Jesus is the first and the last (Revelation 1:17)
13. Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5)
14. Jesus demands that one should honor him as one does the father honor (John 5:23)
15. Jesus is the Creator (Romans 11:36) (Col. 1:16-17)
16. Who has seen Jesus, has seen God (John 14:9)
17. Whoever believes in Jesus believes in God (John 12:44)

Is the Holy spirit a person?
Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.
The Bible shows in many places that the Holy Spirit is acting, and that can only be said by one person.
The Holy Spirit ...
• teaches the disciples (Luke 12:12, John 14:26, 1 Cor 2:13)
• recalls the words of the Lord (John 14:26)
• bears witness to God (John 15:26)
• convict the world of sin, justice and judgment (Jn. 16:8-11)
• leads believers into the whole truth (Jn 16:13)
• announce the coming to the disciples (Jn 16:13)
• talks about the things of the God (Jn 16:13)
• glorify Jesus (Jn 16:14).
• speaks to believers (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25)
• encourages saints (Acts 9:31)
• prevents disciples from doing anything (Acts 16:6)
• forbids disciples to do anything (Acts 16:7)
• leads the sons(Romans 8:14, Gal 5:18)
• affirm with our spirit that we are children of God (Ro 8:16)
• helps believers in their weakness (Romans 8:26)
• uses God for believers according to (Romans 8:27)
• explore the depths of God (1 Cor 2:10)
• distributes gifts according to His will (1 Cor 12:11)
• writes on flesh-tablets of the heart (2 Cor 3:3)
• foretells the future (1 Tim 4:1)
• witnesses the forgiveness of sins to Christians (Heb. 10:15)
• resting on self-proclaiming Christians (1 Pet 4:14)
• speaks to meetings (Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22)
• explains the words of God (Rev 14,13)
• call to Jesus(Rev 22,17)

The Scriptures not only show that the Spirit of God is acting, but are also presented as someone with whom something happens.
The Holy Spirit can ...
• to be blasphemed (Mark 3:29,30)
• be lied to (Acts 5:3)
• be tried, that is, put to the test (Acts 5:9)
• to be fought (Acts 7:51)
• be saddened (Eph 4:30)
• reviled (Heb 10:29)

Many passages in the Bible prove that the Holy Spirit is also God.
Many of the quoted scriptures already make it clear that the mind is not just a person but also God. But because this point is so important, I would like to shed some light on it.
First of all, the Spirit is explicitly called the Spirit of God in Holy Scripture (Gen. 1: 2, Mt 3:16).
Acts 5:3-4 (emphasis added) is very clear: "And Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and took away the proceeds of the field? ... You have not lied to humans, but to God. "
more:
• omnipresent (Ps 139,7)
• omniscient (Isa 40:13; 1 Cor 2:11)
• Almighty (Job 26:13)
• sovereign (John 3:8; 1 Cor 12: 4-11)
• eternal (Heb 9.14)

For one, we don't walk around talking to ourselves or praying to ourselves (unless we have deeper rooted mental problems). Jesus prayed to His Father who he said, sent him and gave him the power he had. The Trinity as best I can find is a Catholic invention. I could be wrong of course, so prove me wrong with clear scripture, please.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Israel Khan
If you play a computer game and control a character, you're 2 in one. two but only one personality
the similar is also the case with the trinity

Since Jesus never put himself with god [or it would be a contradiction], it's more god/creator is the game player and his incarnation/manifestation/intermediary is the character in the game.

The bible sees it as the character being a separate intermediary. Many Christians see it as the character being the creator. Both makes sense, but if going by scripture, it's the former not the latter. [Doesn't change the message, just semantics]

 

[Muffled]

The Trinity is a specific idea about the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One can believe that the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and not be a Trinitarian. I think that the Trinity is inefficient to explain many verses and those verses undermine it.

I would say that the Trinitarian idea that the three are co-equal is nowhere found in scriptures. They seem to be fragments extending from the main body of God, who is the Ancient of Days, always sitting on the throne, which is the source of the rest. So God is more accurately described as one divided into fragments.

The way the Bible describes the Father, the Ancient of days is that he sits on the throne as supreme. The Son, Jesus christ, is the word, which can be seen as verbal communication between God and man, and the Holy Spirit is Gods actual body which does stuff. Even the titles Son and Father gives the idea that the main God is superior to the Son. There is a hierarchy.

I would see the nature of God as based on a near eastern view of a god, who can share power and exist in multiple bodies at the same time by splitting himself up.

At least from what I understand it.

I believe that is a little off. The Trinity is the Father, Son , and Paraclete. All three are the Holy Spirit ie God.

I believe that is true since you left out the Father. Usually people leave out the Paraclete. If you believe in all three as God then you are a Trinitarian.

I believe it would be helpful if you stated what you thought those were. I don't know of any.

I believe this can be shown as a simple deduction:
The Trinity is God
The Trinity is made up of three members
then Each member is God and God is always equal to Himself.

I believe God is one so there are no fragments.

I believe God and the Word are one.

I believe God does not have a body and He is the Holy Spirit.

I believe that is due to the fact that Jesus has a body and the Father does not.

I believe it is true that God can inhabit a number of bodies and that is the Paraclete but it isn't because He is split but because He is omnipresent.

 

[Clear]

Hi @calm :

In the opening post you mention that "We humans consist of a body, a soul and a spirit." (post #1)

Can you define what you are calling the "soul"? It is easy to tell what a body is, and what the spirit was in early Judeo-Christian vernacular but I am not sure what you are calling "the soul". Can you clarify? Thanks in advance.

Clear
τωακδρω

 

[Muffled]

The "word" is not a communication but the "creation". Through the "word" God creates everything. When God says: Let there be light! Then it is the "word". And the "word" is God Himself, for it goes out of His mouth.

I believe it is omnipotence that works creation. The Word decides what that creation will be like. God does not have a mouth.

 

[Muffled]

That is a very good point. I would say it is both then. The Word communicates with others and causes creation.

Genesis 3:8 says, “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

King James Bible
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

I believe despite the fact that God can talk to Himself, the natural need for communication only comes when God has created a being the can hear Him. Of couse that hearing might simply the spiritual perception of hearing.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I believe that is a little off. The Trinity is the Father, Son , and Paraclete. All three are the Holy Spirit ie God.

Is that your idea Trinity or the offical Trinity?

I believe that is true since you left out the Father. Usually people leave out the Paraclete. If you believe in all three as God then you are a Trinitarian.

I think you didn't understand why I mentioned only the two. Its because the whole argument is about the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nobody ever questions whether the Father is God. But I see how I lacked communication there. People can believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God but not be Trinitarian. That is why there are seperate ideas such as Modalism who believe the same yet aren't Trinitarian.

I believe it would be helpful if you stated what you thought those were. I don't know of any.

Refer to my conversation with MJ Flores in the thread What is the Trinity?.

I believe this can be shown as a simple deduction:
The Trinity is God
The Trinity is made up of three members
then Each member is God and God is always equal to Himself.

Not actually, only if each member takes up an equal amount of God. If God is three in one then God is split between 3. The three have to take up some space.

I believe God is one so there are no fragments.

What I mean by fragments is: Consider all the water of the earth as God, since it is all the same substance. If you take a cup and scoop water out then it is a fragment of the whole yet still the same essence as the whole. It is still water.

I believe God and the Word are one.

OK.

I believe God does not have a body and He is the Holy Spirit.

Depends what is referred to as a body. To me, if a consciousness inhabits spirit, that spirit is its body. It does have to have shape or form. Although, the Bible does say we are made in God's image and he is represented as a man, so for all I know we are shaped like him.

I believe that is due to the fact that Jesus has a body and the Father does not.

Makes sense. But if the Son is eternal then at one point he did not have a body. Would he have been referred to as the Son then?

I believe it is true that God can inhabit a number of bodies and that is the Paraclete but it isn't because He is split but because He is omnipresent.

Never thought of that. It goes in line with another theory i have but won't mention it here. Good point.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I believe despite the fact that God can talk to Himself, the natural need for communication only comes when God has created a being the can hear Him. Of couse that hearing might simply the spiritual perception of hearing.

That makes sense, since he would have to be motivated to create things. Something moved him to create, he didn't create for no reason. So your viewpoint is a possibility.

 

[Muffled]

The simple Truth is;

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."



No in body and all we can know of God in Spirit.



No and Yes - The Holy Spirit is Spirit, the body is the Word made flesh.

Regards Tony

I believe that is incorrect. When using the Holy Spirit to mean the Paraclete it is the Spirit of God in believers. It is only a person in the sense of of being personal but different from the persons of Jesus and the Father.

It is the Word that is made flesh not the body. The body is already flesh. I believe this is a metaphor since spirit can't become flesh: John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[calm]

For one, we don't walk around talking to ourselves or praying to ourselves (unless we have deeper rooted mental problems). Jesus prayed to His Father who he said, sent him and gave him the power he had. The Trinity as best I can find is a Catholic invention. I could be wrong of course, so prove me wrong with clear scripture, please.

I did not open the discussion to discuss whether the Trinity is biblical but to learn what exactly people do not understand.
The Trinity is biblical. Those who look at the Bible in its entire context and have the Holy Spirit in them will also know that the Trinity is true.

 

[David1967]

I did not open the discussion to discuss whether the Trinity is biblical but to learn what exactly people do not understand.
The Trinity is biblical. Those who look at the Bible in its entire context and have the Holy Spirit in them will also know that the Trinity is true.

But if the Trinity is not biblical then is it really worth debating in a biblical matter. I'm not saying it isn't, but it is a concept that doesn't make a lot of sense, especially using Jesus words.