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Why " evolution vs creationism"

leroy

Well-Known Member
Where you and the other creationists go
off the rail is that you then start adding
unevidenced conditions to the definition.

Nothing wrong with conditions and details
as such, in fact,it is quite desirable.

Its just that you dont get to simply make
them up,and announce what is possible
and what is not.

You've no data for a your directed changes,
nor for the director thereof.

As a side note, I find it a bit peculiar that
for no evident reason, people such as
yourself want to set limits to what their
god is capable of doing.

You've no data showing that such is the case.

I'd think an omni sort of god would be
quite able and maybe inclined to set up
the universe is such a way that it can
bring forth all manner of wonders, without
"Him" having to poke and prod and tinker
with things to get them to run right.

As if he were mucking about with an old
British sports car.

Why is that?
I completely grant that God could have set the universe in such a way that life could evolve by Darwinian mechanisms, any concern that I might have against evolution* is a scientific concern,

With evolution I mean the idea that the diversity of life is caused mainly by random mutations and natural selection.

I would also like to add, that I am not affirming that evolution is wrong, I am simply saying that evolution is a controversial idea and that there is room for reasonable doubt, perhaps evolution is true, perhaps it is wrong, both are viable possibilities.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That is not a problem “non random genetic changes” have been observed to occur, and cause “small changes” the only question is whether if these changes can add up and produce what you would call a “big change”

Take for example natural genetic engineering, this is a mechanism in which organism modify their DNA when there is selective pressure, and those changes are inherited by the next generations, it is a fact that this mechanism is real, it is a fact that it produce small changes (micro evolution) the only question is whether if this mechanism can account for big changes (macro evolution) and whether if it can account for a mayor part of the diversity and complexity that we observe. This is one of many known mechanisms or non random genetic changes.

Natural genetic engineering - Wikipedia


So once again I ask

"Such as you speak of" being, directed by a Designer.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I completely grant that God could have set the universe in such a way that life could evolve by Darwinian mechanisms, any concern that I might have against evolution* is a scientific concern,

With evolution I mean the idea that the diversity of life is caused mainly by random mutations and natural selection.

I would also like to add, that I am not affirming that evolution is wrong, I am simply saying that evolution is a controversial idea and that there is room for reasonable doubt, perhaps evolution is true, perhaps it is wrong, both are viable possibilities.

I do wish you would drop the "Darwinian" stuff.
Seriously? Its been like 160 years. There is
more to ToE than that, as you have been much
in the habit of illustrating with links and so forth.

As ToE is a theory, it is subject to falsification.
Reasonable doubt, no.

Details are "controversial", to say the theory is,
is no more correct than to say that any and all
theories are controversial.

No doubt you do think your objections are on a
scientific basis, but as a creationist, your mental
underpinnings are a belief in god running things.

A bit of bias there.

Good though that you have dropped the thing
about how evolution without god is impossible.

And again, you've no data whatever to show
either the existence of a god, nor of the tinkering.

Enormous leaps there, based on at best, some
stats. See Mark Twain, for relevant quotes on
the truth-value of stats.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
This is the third time I ask this simple YES/NO question, are you ever going to answer?

Could be. I see no reason to think it is the
case, you've presented none, but as I long since,
along with you know, the geneticists, that
"random" is not an adequate word, what is the
point here?

You are not real big on answering questions
or otherwise responding to things I bring up.
I guess I should get into repeating them with
ALL CAPS.

they line you quoted above there, you brushed
off and went to something else.

You also brushed this off-

Where you and the other creationists go
off the rail is that you then start adding
unevidenced conditions to the definition
.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I do wish you would drop the "Darwinian" stuff.
Seriously? Its been like 160 years. There is
more to ToE than that, as you have been much
in the habit of illustrating with links and so forth.
Should I use the term Neodarwinain instead? Darwin claimed that the diversity of life is due to random changes + natural selection, neodarwinism is simply an updated version where one would incomporate the concept of Genetic changes (mutations) I don see why are you making such a big deal, we do find terms like “Darwinism” “evolutionists” etc in books and peer reviewed articles, it seems to me that only traumatized new atheist from forums and youtube think that these terms are inappropriate.





No doubt you do think your objections are on a
scientific basis, but as a creationist, your mental
underpinnings are a belief in god running things.

A bit of bias there.

That is a typical example of the genetic fallacy, whether if I have a personal bias or not is irrelevant, to whether if I have seceded in showing that there are alternative theories to evolution (using my definition of evolution)


And again, you've no data whatever to show
either the existence of a god, nor of the tinkering.

.
My intent is not to show that God exists, my intent in this thread is to show that there is room for reasonable doubt, perhaps evolution is wrong (using my definition of evolution)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In your opinion; which mechanism is more relevant in explaining the diversity and complexity of life; random mutations or non random genetic changes?
This is a poorly asked question with an incorrect assumption built into it. The correct answer is that it is not an 'either or' situation. They are both essential to evolution so neither one is more important.

Also, as has been pointed out the phrase "random mutations" is incorrect as well since for many it leads to a wrong conclusion. Better to say "variation" since it does not have the term "random" which so many creationists do not understand in it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Should I use the term Neodarwinain instead? Darwin claimed that the diversity of life is due to random changes + natural selection, neodarwinism is simply an updated version where one would incomporate the concept of Genetic changes (mutations) I don see why are you making such a big deal, we do find terms like “Darwinism” “evolutionists” etc in books and peer reviewed articles, it seems to me that only traumatized new atheist from forums and youtube think that these terms are inappropriate.







That is a typical example of the genetic fallacy, whether if I have a personal bias or not is irrelevant, to whether if I have seceded in showing that there are alternative theories to evolution (using my definition of evolution)



My intent is not to show that God exists, my intent in this thread is to show that there is room for reasonable doubt, perhaps evolution is wrong (using my definition of evolution)

Try just saying "Theory of Evolution" the way normal people
do.

"Genetic fallacy"?

As for my observation that you have "god" as a premise
being irrelevant, it is not.

Your fantastic leap from someone's stats to the need
for a god to run things is not to be expected from anyone
without that bias.

As for "reasonable doubt", I am not the one who has
pronounced that this or that is "impossible" as you have.

There is room for doubt re ANY theory.
Especially if you make up your own definition.

"Reasonable doubt"?

Potentially. But reasonable needs a reason.

There will always be details of ToE that someone
gets wrong.

There is no REASONable doubt that the theory is correct.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Could be. I see no reason to think it is the
case, you've presented none, but as I long since,
along with you know, the geneticists, that
"random" is not an adequate word, what is the
point here?

I already told you what I mean with “random” please feel free to use a different word

Well I already presented an example of a mechanism (NGE) that we know is real, we know it accounts for some “micro evolution” would you consider that there is a possibility that this mechanism accounts for most of the complexity and diversity of life? YES or NO?


You are not real big on answering questions
or otherwise responding to things I bring up.
I guess I should get into repeating them with
ALL CAPS.

Feel Free to quote any question that I haven’t answered





Where you and the other creationists go
off the rail is that you then start adding
unevidenced conditions to the definition

What am I suppose to answer? That is not a question, honestly what do you what me to do?


.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I already told you what I mean with “random” please feel free to use a different word

Well I already presented an example of a mechanism (NGE) that we know is real, we know it accounts for some “micro evolution” would you consider that there is a possibility that this mechanism accounts for most of the complexity and diversity of life? YES or NO?

You probably posted accounts of macroevolution. Creationists do not tend to understand the two terms micorevolution and macroevolution. On the sujbect of any limit to evolution there does not appear to be any limit as far as observed life forms, both present and past. What evidence is there for a limit? If others answer your questions you really should answer those of others. If you believe that others asked improperly formed questions, as you do quite often, you could always explain why they are improperly asked and try to answer as best you can.

NGE is merely a refinement of natural selection. It does not imply a creator. Why bring it up?

Feel Free to quote any question that I haven’t answered

We will.



What am I suppose to answer? That is not a question, honestly what do you what me to do?


.
That was an observation by Audie and not a question. No need to answer, simply acknowledge your error and move on from there.

My question is what evidence do you have for the limits to evolution? Please do not use old refuted arguments such as Sanford's work. That failed before it was even published.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I already told you what I mean with “random” please feel free to use a different word

Well I already presented an example of a mechanism (NGE) that we know is real, we know it accounts for some “micro evolution” would you consider that there is a possibility that this mechanism accounts for most of the complexity and diversity of life? YES or NO?




Feel Free to quote any question that I haven’t answered







What am I suppose to answer? That is not a question, honestly what do you what me to do?


.

Uh, in this case, carry on, with Subzie, if he feels like
it.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
This is a poorly asked question with an incorrect assumption built into it. The correct answer is that it is not an 'either or' situation. They are both essential to evolution so neither one is more important.

Also, as has been pointed out the phrase "random mutations" is incorrect as well since for many it leads to a wrong conclusion. Better to say "variation" since it does not have the term "random" which so many creationists do not understand in it.

Well the thing is that we both agree on that there is “variation” and that NS can ether select or remove any given variation. We also agree on the fact that this process of variation + natural selection can account for the diversity of life.

Our point of disagreement seems to be that I would say that variation is mainly “non random” and you would argue that (I suppose) that variation is mainly random.

With random I simply mean “not biased” an organisms that requires better sight is not more likely to “gain” better sight than an organism that needs better sight, this is what I mean by random.

I personally think that it is completely appropriate to focus the definitions on our points of disagreement.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
My question is what evidence do you have for the limits to evolution? Please do not use old refuted arguments such as Sanford's work. That failed before it was even published.
Define evolution, and define evidence.

Let’s use your terms, and definitions, since you don’t seem to like mine
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well the thing is that we both agree on that there is “variation” and that NS can ether select or remove any given variation. We also agree on the fact that this process of variation + natural selection can account for the diversity of life.

Our point of disagreement seems to be that I would say that variation is mainly “non random” and you would argue that (I suppose) that variation is mainly random.

With random I simply mean “not biased” an organisms that requires better sight is not more likely to “gain” better sight than an organism that needs better sight, this is what I mean by random.

I personally think that it is completely appropriate to focus the definitions on our points of disagreement.

How is variation "non-random"? Right now it appears that it is. Even with "random" processes predictions can be made. The insurance industry relies on the fact that one can for their continued existence. And when you introduce an animal that can benefit from sight you are introducing natural selection into the mix. That is a problem that many creationists have they cannot see that variation works hand in hand with natural selection. Natural selection explains why an organism with better sight will be more likely to reproduce and those with poorer sight will be less likely to reproduce. The overall result is an improvement in vision. No gods need apply.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Define evolution, and define evidence.

Let’s use your terms, and definitions, since you don’t seem to like mine
When I use the word "evolution" I mean it as in the Modern Synthesis. That life as we see is it is the product of changes over time caused by natural selection and variation of the genome.

Since this is scientific debate the proper definition to use for evidence would be that of scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is any observation that supports or opposes a scientific theory or hypothesis. Do you need links for any of this? This is the last time that I will ask, it is a given from now on. If I say something and you need a link simply ask for one. I will not be offended.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
How is variation "non-random"? Right now it appears that it is. Even with "random" processes predictions can be made. The insurance industry relies on the fact that one can for their continued existence. And when you introduce an animal that can benefit from sight you are introducing natural selection into the mix. That is a problem that many creationists have they cannot see that variation works hand in hand with natural selection. Natural selection explains why an organism with better sight will be more likely to reproduce and those with poorer sight will be less likely to reproduce. The overall result is an improvement in vision. No gods need apply.

And my suggestion would be that an organism that “needs” better sight is more likely to receive a “variation” that would produce a better sight than an organisms that doesn’t “need” better sight. (non random)

Darwin would have said that both organisms are equally likely to receive this variation (random)

This is what I mean by random, please let me know if I should use some other word
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Why is it called "evolution vs creationism"? This implies that creationists dont believe in passing on of traits, adaptation, a finches beak changing its shape across several generations depending on environment. But creationists DO accept these things. Wouldnt a better title be " creationism vs the belief that new traits/ things materialize out of nowhere"?

This misses the notion that evolution, or un-designed creativity, let's call it, can produce new forms out of it's own, unintentional, systemic context.

This is cutting edge science-speculation but I would bet money on it.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
When I use the word "evolution" I mean it as in the Modern Synthesis. That life as we see is it is the product of changes over time caused by natural selection and variation of the genome.

Since this is scientific debate the proper definition to use for evidence would be that of scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is any observation that supports or opposes a scientific theory or hypothesis. Do you need links for any of this? This is the last time that I will ask, it is a given from now on. If I say something and you need a link simply ask for one. I will not be offended.
I personally accept what you call evolution.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And my suggestion would be that an organism that “needs” better sight is more likely to receive a “variation” that would produce a better sight than an organisms that doesn’t “need” better sight. (non random)

Darwin would have said that both organisms are equally likely to receive this variation (random)

This is what I mean by random, please let me know if I should use some other word
Then you would have to demonstrate that to be the case. That natural variation in a population will occur is easily shown. Those mutations appear to be just as likely in a population that could not benefit from them as in a population that can. The difference is that in a population that does not need them they would likely be lost, or even be negative in effect.

So far all you have is handwaving.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With evolution I mean “the idea that the complexity and diversity of life was caused mainly by random mutations + natural selection. Using this definition, evolution would be a controversial idea.

That is not the definition of biological evolution. Random mutation is not the sole determinant of genetic variation. There is also gene reshuffling occurring during meiosis and the founder effect, for example.
what exactly do you mean by “evolution”?

I'm using the scientific definition of biological evolution, which refers to varying allele frequencies over time occurring within the gene pools of living populations due to blind, unguided genetic variation subjected to natural selection, which leads to phenotypic changes in these populations over time and descent with modification. This differs from your definition

Sure, and my suggestion is that genetic changes are not always random, and that non random genetic changes play a major role in creating the diversity and the complexity of life, while random mutations play a minor role.

That's an interesting idea. By non-random (undirected or unintended is probably a better term than random), do you mean an intelligent designer? Presently, we have no need of that hypothesis. Although it is possibly the case, there is no reason to believe at this time that undirected, naturalistic processes are not up to the task.

there is a true controversy in the scientific community on whether if random genetic changes and natural selection are sufficient to explain the diversity of life. Most scientists won’t go as far as proclaiming YEC but they would argue that the mechanisms of random mutations and natural selection are not sufficient to explain the diversity of life

I'm not aware of any controversy in the scientific community about the validity of Darwin's theory. The consensus is that it's settled science.

I hear a handful of creationists objecting, a fraction of those who are scientists, But who are you going to take your science from - the community of people whose agenda is to discover how the world works, or people trying to promote a religious idea?

The scientific theory unified mountains of data, accurately predicts things that can and cannot be found in nature, accounts for the diversity and commonality of all life, provides a mechanism that undeniably occurs (genetic variation + natural selection) and has practical applications in areas like medicine and agriculture that have improved the human condition. That's what we expect from a correct idea - it is useful.

Creationism does none of that and can be used for nothing practical. Isn't that the sine qua non of a wrong idea? That was also true about astrology and alchemy, a couple of faith based systems of thought predicated on faulty assumptions that produced nothing of value.

Maybe you disagree. What have the creationists / ID advocates discovered to support their hypothesis? To my knowledge, nothing.

IC is a hypothesis that is currently being developed. It is unfair to call it pseudoscience.

I called ID pseudoscience, not irreversible complexity. ID is predicated on an undemonstrated premise just like astrology, and it is a search to confirm that assumption. That is not science. Science goes where the evidence takes it. Pseudoscience searches for evidence to support an assumption held by faith, a process that introduces confirmation bias.

Science considers all of the relevant evidence dispassionately. Pseudoscience begins with an unsupported premise and then massages the evidence to reverse engineer an argument that seems to lead to the original premise now presented as a conclusion derived from reason applied to evidence, when it is actually no such thing.

Do you know why medical trials are double blinded? It's to help reduce confirmation bias in clinicians and patients, the kind that characterizes pseudoscience.
 
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