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Why fascism isn't rightwing and why Hitler's regime was "leftist"

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A lot of people tend to ask me to look over stuff relating to scientific research, but only my family (and more specifically the only two really conservative members of my family) have asked me to read books to “convert” me. Like virtually all popular science sources, these books by hardcore right-wingers have (IMO) consisted of little more than garbage. Worse still is being handed some book by Ann Coulter by someone who’s read Hayek, Popper, von Mises, Mill, Marx, Rousseau, Jefferson, Hobbes, Smith, and so on (back to Plato). Needless to say, then, I had nothing but terrible expectations when I was (forcibly) lent a book entitled Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning. I was surprised.

Would I recommend the book? No. But for a piece of right-wing historicizing ideology by a journalist (not a historian), it was far more accurate and well-researched than expected. It was like a less accurate and more sensationalist version of the history of the modern left by the doctor of political science Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn: Leftism: From de Sade and Marx to Hitler and Marcuse. It was this book, along with von Mises’ Socialism (and the work by his student & mentor Hayek, e.g., the chapter in his The Road to Serfdom “The Socialist Roots of Nazism”) that opened my mind as a preteen/young teen years ago. Even my extremely conservative father had concentrated on “correcting” the political history I was being taught in school and emphasizing that leftwing ideology led to regimes like Stalin. He never (so far as I can recall) argued that Hitler’s party was leftwing or that fascism was leftist, nor corrected what I was taught in school: the Nazis were rightwing extremist in contrast to the extreme left represented by e.g., Stalin.

Years and years later, I would have to agree with a now fairly lengthy tradition of

1) Exposing the “creationist” myth that the two extremes were two sides of the same coin rather than strawmen created by a post-WII intellectual attempt to simultaneously reinvent their ideological origins and purge them of eugenics and connections to totalitarian regimes.

&

2) Demonstrating that neither the 20th totalitarian regimes nor the fascism of those of Hitler or Mussolini were rightwing at all.

I would also not say that fascism is a leftwing ideology. I would actually argue it is a largely meaningless term:

At the end of the twentieth century fascism remains probably the vaguest of the major political terms. This may stem from the fact that the word itself contains no explicit political reference, however abstract, as do democracy, liberalism, socialism, and communism. To say that the Italian fascio (Latin fasces, French faisceau, Spanish haz) means “bundle” or “union” does not tell us much. Moreover, the term has probably been used more by its opponents than by its proponents, the former having been responsible for the generalization of the adjective on an international level, as early as 1923. Fascist has been one of the most frequently invoked political pejoratives, normally intended to connote “violent,” “brutal,” “repressive,” or “dictatorial.” Yet if fascism means no more than that, then Communist regimes, for example, would probably have to be categorized as among the most fascist” (italics in original; emphasis added)

Payne, S. G. (1995). A History of Fascism, 1914-1945. Routledge.

Unlike Goldberg’s book, von Kuehnelt-Leddihn’s erudite and monumental historiography, while (IMO) still too biased to the right, traces the origins of 20th century fascism (i.e., regimes of those like Hitler) all the way back to Plato. Of course, tracing fascism and totalitarianism to Plato is hardly new (see esp. Popper’s The Open Society and its Enemies). But few histories of fascism not only go so far back, but also cover in detail the evolution of leftwing ideologies from the French revolution to modern conservatives and liberals whilst covering little known but important developments that run the gamut from Protestantism and St. Thomas More to anticolonialism. Also, while Goldberg’s book is more comprehensive when it comes to the development of the use of the term fascist as well as modern political thought from the early 20th century onwards, there are much better, more accurate sources. It is not as if the connections between the “fascism” of Hitler and the real fascism of Mussolini were demonstrated to have more than just surface similarities to leftwing ideology:

"like later New Leftists, many French fascist intellectuals were ostensibly antibourgeois. Robert Brasillach once described the spirit of fascism as "anti-conformist first of all, anti-bourgeois...in which disrespect plays a part," the revolt of a joyous, unhypocritical, antimaterialist youth ("scornful of the think possessions of this world") against their stuffy, repressed, middle-class elders."

Soucy, R. (1974). French Fascist Intellectuals in the 1930s: An Old New Left? French Historical Studies 8(3): 445-458.

But this comparison is easily pushed to an inaccurate extreme (almost as bad as identifying the Nazi party as rightwing). It misses the important differences that exist even between the Nazi party and Mussolini’s Italy, as well as the common historical & ideological bases behind a much broader set regimes, parties, and movements:

"Italian Fascism was not Hitler’s National Socialism, and it was not Lenin’s Bolshevism—but all three shared some sort of affinity, however minimal. For the purpose of the present exposition, the relationship between Mussolini’s Fascism and Lenin’s Bolshevism is of central concern. It speaks to the ideological relationship shared by Italian Fascism and one or another variant of Marxism, and helps us understand why relevant similarities regularly resurface in any study dealing with modern revolutionary political systems. It is a story that covers almost half a century of European radical thought—and involves some of the major intellectuals of the first quarter of the twentieth century."

Gregor, J. A. (2009). Marxism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism: Chapters in the Intellectual History of Radicalism. Stanford University Press.

“In retrospect, out of the enormous body of reasoning devoted to Marxism as a revolutionary belief system, one can tease some of those elements with which we are today all-too-familiar. There is, in the texts left to us by Marx and Engels, an argument for the rejection of any “absolute” morality. Morality, we are told by the founders of classical Marxism, is that code of conduct that results in “the overthrow of the present, [and] represents the future.” Why overthrowing the present should recommend itself as moral is part of the story of the role played by normative reasoning in the twentieth century. Out of that reasoning, in large part, was to emerge the totalitarian rationale of Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, National Socialism, and Italian Fascism in all their variants.” (emphasis added)

Gregor, J. A. (2009). Marxism, Fascism, and Totalitarianism: Chapters in the Intellectual History of Radicalism. Stanford University Press.

I don’t need to trace the development of thought behind the 20th century regimes that resulted in mass slaughter here, as it is vast and includes everything from French revolutionary thought to Darwinism and political religions. After all, there is good reason for Mussolini’s radical socialism prior to Italy’s fascist transformation as there is Hitler’s deep-seated affinity with the Marxism his party (a “people’s” party that was explicitly socialist) fought with for the heart of the German people:

"The reality was that, underneath the ostensible philosophical incompatibilities between the two rival ideologies, Nazism contained a number of tactical affinities with the much- decried Marxism. Hitler himself admitted that he found inspiration in Marxist patterns of political struggle: 'I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate to admit. I don’t mean their tiresome social doctrine or the materialist conception of history . . . and so on. But I have learned from their methods. The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and pen-pushers have timidly begun. The whole National Socialism is based on it . . . National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with the democratic order.'”

Tismaneanu, V. (2012). The Devil in History: Communism, Fascism, and Some Lessons of the Twentieth Century. University of California Press.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
So that would make the Tea Party a leftist organization, right???
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I came in here all ready to show you in detail why that couldn't possibly be true and then you turn out to have done it for me. *edit*
Hitler gets everybody's attention. I've learned sensationalist titles for threads are the only way anybody would choose to read my threads rather than opt for water-boarding. However, I DID put "leftist" in scare-quotes, which should absolve me of total dishonesty when it comes to the title, right?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The problem with terms like 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' is that they have been used in such different contexts that their meanings can only be given meaning from evaluating their usage in particular contexts in particular points in history.

They don't convey any fixed or consistent values so trying to fit historical ideologies into modern left/right discussions is inherently problematic.

For example, most people would now consider imperialism to have been right wing and anti-imperialism to have been left, but to claim imperialism or anti-imperialism belong specifically to right or left would be misleading.

When people get to things like fascism and start using terms like right wing, and also use right wing to represent conservatism and (some forms of) libertarianism, then you just have to accept that 'right' doesn't really mean anything coherent.

If 'right' can mean a radical combination of state corporatism and romantic nationalism, and also conservatism and also relate to extreme deregulation and decentralisation what's the point in using it as a meaningful concept.

Then you get things like neo-conservatism which, for some reason, many people consider a far right ideology, despite the fact that it could just as easily be argued as representing characteristics of 'left-wing' political thought.

Political partizans today like to coopt history to serve their current agenda, and most people have very little concept of how terms like right and left have changed.

60 years ago in Politics and the English Language, Orwell stated that "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’." It gets termed right wing largely because it was opposed to communism and 'if it opposes the left then it must be right'. And where Stalinism as it existed in reality fits in on the political spectrum is also somewhat opaque.

Trying to use historical ideologies for point scoring in modern 'right/left' politics is indeed pretty meaningless.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yes LOM if you could explain left and right wing.

Left seeks a classless or system of equal authority
Right supports the existence of a ruling class?

The US is then generally a leftist system, which would be true of any democratic system.

Somehow conservatism gets identified with right and liberalism gets identified with the left. Is there some real correlation there or is this just labeling ideologies with something the other side sees as derogatory?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is rightist what is leftist and what is fascist?
Leftist/Left-wing views are a bit easier. Granted, no definition of leftist, conservative, neo-conservative, radical, democrat, etc., is going to adequately encapsulate what is often a combination of (ever-changing) political affiliations with a nebulous (ever-evolving) political ideology or worldview. But "luckily", for most of history the political system has consisted of brutal monarchies, empires, aristocracies, tyrannical "democracies", and so forth. Also, through most of history most cultures have expressed a distaste of and hostility to change, which is where conservatism originated and it remains part of conservative ideology (although I think most conservatives today don't want to maintain the status quo, which they find to liberal/leftist). Progressivism, a fundamental component of leftwing/leftist ideology, was made possible largely thanks to the secularization of medieval and early modern Christian teleology. Marx & Engels, for example, replaced the Christian eschatological hope for the return of Christ and "end of days" with an "end of political systems/stages." It is often forgot that Marx believed capitalism to have been the best economic/political system in the history of humanity. He viewed it as the "last" stage in an increasingly better but still deficient evolution of socio-political & economic systems. But because it was still deficient, it would eventually fail and bring on a "secular apocalypse" in which the working-class would rise up and take control, essentially ending all regimes in place of a collective of all individuals (not a democracy, both because of the view that communism wasn't really a political system and the emphasis on economics). Naturally, in a world recently Christian but increasingly secular, political ideologies (secular or no) would incorporate earlier Christian teleology, and progressivism was the most widespread and easily identified instance:

"Of an individual, policy, or party: advocating or working towards change or reform in society, esp. in political or religious matters; committed to progress, forward-looking. With capital initial: of or relating to a Progressive Party (Progressive Party n. at Compounds).
Applied at different times and in different places to various political groups committed to progress or reform: see Progressive Party n. at Compounds. In the United States now often used as a self-designation by people on the left to avoid the term liberal.

1830 Times 18 Nov. 2/6 The Ministers..find themselves every instant compromised by their progressive allies whose support they expected.
1844 Sandusky (Ohio) Clarion 17 Aug. 4/3 Below is a specimen of progressive Democracy, which is new in this country.
1844 B. Disraeli Coningsby III. vi. iii. 30 Odious distinctions were not drawn between Finality men and progressive Reformers.
1855 N.Y. Weekly Tribune 28 Apr. 4/6 The Pennsylvania Yearly Meeting of Progressive Friends..is to convene..on Sunday, May 20.
1884 Pall Mall Gaz. 8 Jan. 8/1 The Progressive Brahmans, or, as they call their church, the ‘Brahma Somaj of India’.
1889 Pall Mall Gaz. 30 Jan. 2/2 From the point of view of the Progressive majority, this is the only way to make the seat secure.
1904 Old Dartmouth Hist. Coll. No.8, 16/2 These Hicksites are called Progressive Quakers.
1954 Sun (Baltimore) 9 Dec. 1/1 President Eisenhower..asserted his leadership of the Republican party as a party of ‘progressive moderates’.
1969 A. G. Frank Lat. Amer. xxii. 269 Concerned and progressive people everywhere scrutinize these..laws, and often criticize them.
1971 Progress (Cape Town) May 5/4 There had been talk of a split for a long time; the Press had even coined the term the ‘Progressive Group’ of the United Party.
2005 Nation 15 Aug. 18/1 Yes, of course, he'd like the Democratic Party to be more progressive and for third parties to develop the capacity to pull the political process to the left."
(OED)


Naturally, not all progressives were leftwing nor can leftist ideological origins be found in progressivism. But it was an is a fundamental component, and is also (again, naturally) antithetical to conservatism- hence the opposing meanings of the words. However, another fundamental component of leftist thought is fraternité and the related notion that the people are the state/party and the state/party are the people. This isn’t to be confused, or at least not overly equated with, the idea that more government is good. Republicans, conservatives, (modern) liberals, democrats, socialists, and more all want less government and more government, just less and more of different things (e.g., more military spending vs. higher taxes for free universal healthcare). Rather, the foundational notion is more that instead of a government where everybody can vote (democracy) or vote for representatives (republic/representative democracy), everybody IS the government, which isn’t a government because it is the people (hoi polloi). Again, a usually poor method for understanding is informative here, as “socialism” and “communism” suggest this kind of collectivist thought. Although the origins of this ideology predate it, the French Revolution is probably best identified as “ground zero” or the starting point. Ironically, both fraternité and liberté and their later developments begin with the French Revolution, both are secularized components of Christianity (Paul’s use of “brothers”/adelphoi proved very influential as did similar use by early Christians), yet they quickly encountered tension. Rousseau’s famous declaration (the opening line, if memory serves, to Du contrat social ou Principes du droit politique) that “"L'homme est ne libre, et partout il est dans les fers” was not seen to have any conflicts with a collective state where the party and people were one. Human nature, however, as it so often does, created such a conflict: when the people are the state and the party is the people, Rousseau’s chains aren’t removed and can easily become more constraining. In non-radical forms, the conflict is more between an emphasis on individual freedoms vs. individual responsibilities to the collective/nation/etc., Most cultures throughout most of human history are fundamentally communal: individual identity is tied inexorably to family, tradition, tribe/nation/people/country/etc., and individualism is non-existent. Medieval and later developments in Western Christianity and in particular with the Protestant revolution (where the idea that every individual was responsible for her or his salvation or damnation independent of the Church originated) changed this. We find the thought of Rousseau and Locke in a little known document (Declaration of something-or-other) which has the line “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The problem is that classical liberalism held individualism to be vital, and therefore to the extent that classical liberal thought invoked or incorporated collectivist ideology (fraternité), it placed severe limits on it: "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first" (Jefferson).

This is where things become even more convoluted in this already overly-simplistic treatment. Rightwing thought has at least two fundamentally incompatible origins. One the one hand, we have the conservatism of those like Hobbes, who echoed Plato in arguing that humans require a monarch (of the philosopher-king variety, naturally). On the other, we have libertarianism, a form of classical liberal thought not only shed of any semblance of fraternité, but actively against anything that impinges on personal freedom. Also, libertarianism can be (and often is) progressive, but can be conservative, while Hobbesian rightwing thought is about as conservative as it gets (at the extreme, i.e., a literal endorsement of Hobbes of the type made by the very Dr. Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn I mentioned, it means return to a monarchy). For simplicity, I like to refer to progressive libertarianism as moderate anarchism (anarchy “light”), in which government exists but as minimally as is possible, because anarchism shares (though obviously exceeds) libertarian distaste for government and involves radical progressivism.


Finally, fascism has three definitions:

1) Pre-Mussolini fascist parties, which have basically nothing to do with fascism.

2) Mussolini’s fascism, which is unique

3) Meaningless
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Leftist/Left-wing views are a bit easier. Granted, no definition of leftist, conservative, neo-conservative, radical, democrat, etc., is going to adequately encapsulate what is often a combination of (ever-changing) political affiliations with a nebulous (ever-evolving) political ideology or worldview. But "luckily", for most of history the political system has consisted of brutal monarchies, empires, aristocracies, tyrannical "democracies", and so forth. Also, through most of history most cultures have expressed a distaste of and hostility to change, which is where conservatism originated and it remains part of conservative ideology (although I think most conservatives today don't want to maintain the status quo, which they find to liberal/leftist).
Progressivism, a fundamental component of leftwing/leftist ideology, was made possible largely thanks to the secularization of medieval and early modern Christian teleology. Marx & Engels, for example, replaced the Christian eschatological hope for the return of Christ and "end of days" with an "end of political systems/stages." It is often forgot that Marx believed capitalism to have been the best economic/political system in the history of humanity. He viewed it as the "last" stage in an increasingly better but still deficient evolution of socio-political & economic systems. But because it was still deficient, it would eventually fail and bring on a "secular apocalypse" in which the working-class would rise up and take control, essentially ending all regimes in place of a collective of all individuals (not a democracy, both because of the view that communism wasn't really a political system and the emphasis on economics). Naturally, in a world recently Christian but increasingly secular, political ideologies (secular or no) would incorporate earlier Christian teleology, and progressivism was the most widespread and easily identified instance:

"Of an individual, policy, or party: advocating or working towards change or reform in society, esp. in political or religious matters; committed to progress, forward-looking. With capital initial: of or relating to a Progressive Party (Progressive Party n. at Compounds).
Applied at different times and in different places to various political groups committed to progress or reform: see Progressive Party n. at Compounds. In the United States now often used as a self-designation by people on the left to avoid the term liberal.

1830 Times 18 Nov. 2/6 The Ministers..find themselves every instant compromised by their progressive allies whose support they expected.
1844 Sandusky (Ohio) Clarion 17 Aug. 4/3 Below is a specimen of progressive Democracy, which is new in this country.
1844 B. Disraeli Coningsby III. vi. iii. 30 Odious distinctions were not drawn between Finality men and progressive Reformers.
1855 N.Y. Weekly Tribune 28 Apr. 4/6 The Pennsylvania Yearly Meeting of Progressive Friends..is to convene..on Sunday, May 20.
1884 Pall Mall Gaz. 8 Jan. 8/1 The Progressive Brahmans, or, as they call their church, the ‘Brahma Somaj of India’.
1889 Pall Mall Gaz. 30 Jan. 2/2 From the point of view of the Progressive majority, this is the only way to make the seat secure.
1904 Old Dartmouth Hist. Coll. No.8, 16/2 These Hicksites are called Progressive Quakers.
1954 Sun (Baltimore) 9 Dec. 1/1 President Eisenhower..asserted his leadership of the Republican party as a party of ‘progressive moderates’.
1969 A. G. Frank Lat. Amer. xxii. 269 Concerned and progressive people everywhere scrutinize these..laws, and often criticize them.
1971 Progress (Cape Town) May 5/4 There had been talk of a split for a long time; the Press had even coined the term the ‘Progressive Group’ of the United Party.
2005 Nation 15 Aug. 18/1 Yes, of course, he'd like the Democratic Party to be more progressive and for third parties to develop the capacity to pull the political process to the left."
(OED)


Naturally, not all progressives were leftwing nor can leftist ideological origins be found in progressivism. But it was an is a fundamental component, and is also (again, naturally) antithetical to conservatism- hence the opposing meanings of the words. However, another fundamental component of leftist thought is fraternité and the related notion that the people are the state/party and the state/party are the people. This isn’t to be confused, or at least not overly equated with, the idea that more government is good. Republicans, conservatives, (modern) liberals, democrats, socialists, and more all want less government and more government, just less and more of different things (e.g., more military spending vs. higher taxes for free universal healthcare). Rather, the foundational notion is more that instead of a government where everybody can vote (democracy) or vote for representatives (republic/representative democracy), everybody IS the government, which isn’t a government because it is the people (hoi polloi). Again, a usually poor method for understanding is informative here, as “socialism” and “communism” suggest this kind of collectivist thought. Although the origins of this ideology predate it, the French Revolution is probably best identified as “ground zero” or the starting point. Ironically, both fraternité and liberté and their later developments begin with the French Revolution, both are secularized components of Christianity (Paul’s use of “brothers”/adelphoi proved very influential as did similar use by early Christians), yet they quickly encountered tension. Rousseau’s famous declaration (the opening line, if memory serves, to Du contrat social ou Principes du droit politique) that “"L'homme est ne libre, et partout il est dans les fers” was not seen to have any conflicts with a collective state where the party and people were one. Human nature, however, as it so often does, created such a conflict: when the people are the state and the party is the people, Rousseau’s chains aren’t removed and can easily become more constraining. In non-radical forms, the conflict is more between an emphasis on individual freedoms vs. individual responsibilities to the collective/nation/etc., Most cultures throughout most of human history are fundamentally communal: individual identity is tied inexorably to family, tradition, tribe/nation/people/country/etc., and individualism is non-existent. Medieval and later developments in Western Christianity and in particular with the Protestant revolution (where the idea that every individual was responsible for her or his salvation or damnation independent of the Church originated) changed this. We find the thought of Rousseau and Locke in a little known document (Declaration of something-or-other) which has the line “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The problem is that classical liberalism held individualism to be vital, and therefore to the extent that classical liberal thought invoked or incorporated collectivist ideology (fraternité), it placed severe limits on it: "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first" (Jefferson).

This is where things become even more convoluted in this already overly-simplistic treatment. Rightwing thought has at least two fundamentally incompatible origins. One the one hand, we have the conservatism of those like Hobbes, who echoed Plato in arguing that humans require a monarch (of the philosopher-king variety, naturally). On the other, we have libertarianism, a form of classical liberal thought not only shed of any semblance of fraternité, but actively against anything that impinges on personal freedom. Also, libertarianism can be (and often is) progressive, but can be conservative, while Hobbesian rightwing thought is about as conservative as it gets (at the extreme, i.e., a literal endorsement of Hobbes of the type made by the very Dr. Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn I mentioned, it means return to a monarchy). For simplicity, I like to refer to progressive libertarianism as moderate anarchism (anarchy “light”), in which government exists but as minimally as is possible, because anarchism shares (though obviously exceeds) libertarian distaste for government and involves radical progressivism.


Finally, fascism has three definitions:

1) Pre-Mussolini fascist parties, which have basically nothing to do with fascism.

2) Mussolini’s fascism, which is unique

3) Meaningless

There isn't really much of your assessment I necessary disagree with (except not talking about enough anarchism). I basically agree that modern social liberalism is more or less a secularized version of Jesus. The common goal tending to be aspiration towards equality. By why necessarily start at the place of medieval Europe, or even Jesus? Why not Judaism, or the Gracchus bros.? Why not the Reformation, or the English Civil War as opposed to the French Revolution. You are right concerning the FR being the birth place of most political modes we are aware of, liberalism to anarchism to communism to fascism (or the things typically referred to as fascist, they all had socialism in the name, I assume because it was as vague then as it is now), or at least the ideas that would form such things and burn all over Europe. But they roots go deeper than that. People are only needing so much dissatisfaction to overthrow a monarch in any given place.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By why necessarily start at the place of medieval Europe, or even Jesus? Why not Judaism, or the Gracchus bros.?
Two reasons:

1) I'm working on trying to be less long-winded, and it is too easy for me to start something like the development of modern statistics with Greek geometry and write pages just to get to Kepler, several centuries before the founders of modern statistics were born (this happened).
2) Of the numerous roots for many 20th century political ideologies, few pre-date the early modern period and many were basically impossible.

It's important, for example, to note that while there were many key components within Christian thought that became key aspects of political ideologies, few of these would even be recognizable to Christians before the medieval period and others not until the Protestant reformation. The exception is teleology, which DOES actually pre-date Jesus (and contemporaneous with Jesus; the Jesus movement wasn't the only Jewish movement or sect characterized at least partly by eschatology). However, after the destruction of the temple and the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism, Jewish eschatology changed (for one thing, Judaism became increasingly unified), Christian messianic expectations were obviously those of a return of the messiah, and when Christ failed to show when Paul and the Church fathers expected Christian eschatology began to turn into the millenarianism that was so influential across Europe and lasted long enough to be influential to radically secular political thought. Norman Cohn's The Pursuit of the Millennium remains (IMO) perhaps the best historical account of the various movements, cults, cult leaders, communes, etc. For example, centuries before Marx we find movements of socio-political uprising modelled on a return to what was perceived as the egalitarian commune Christ began, not only in action and persons but literature:

"alle thynges under hevene oughte to ben in cornune
He lyeth, as I leve, that to the lewed so precheth
For God made to men a lawe and Moyses it taughte
Non concupisces rem proximi tui"

[all things under heaven ought to be in common
He lives, as I live, who to the lewd so preaches
For God made to mean a law and Moses taught
Don't covet anything [that] belongs to those near you/ your neighbors]

Langlands Piers Plowman

Even more important striking is the literature from the Taborite eschatology and the anarchist-communist movement in Bohemia. We find, for example, in the writings of the historian Cosmas of Prague both a yearning for the idealistic communism of an (albeit partially imagined) past:

"...Nec quisquam "meum" dicere norat, sed ad instar monastice vite, quicquid habebant, "nostrum" ore, corde et opere sonabant"
[Neither did anyone know how to say "mine", but as in monastic life, whatsoever they had they called "ours" in tongue, heart, and deed]

and lamenting the current state of affairs:

"Proh dolor! Prospera in contraria, communia in propria cedunt"
[Oh Alas! [now] they exchange prosperity for its contrary, communal for private ownership]

We find communes in which cult leaders preached radical egalitarianism while having sex with any of the women they wished often becoming more tyrannical as they solidified power, peasant revolts that sought not only socioeconomic equality but the equality of the Kingdom of God which they believed their faith and actions would bring about, mystical anarchism, even the beginnings of nationalism.

Why not the Reformation, or the English Civil War as opposed to the French Revolution.

Because the French Revolution was preceded by and accompanied with a secular communist egalitarianism that served as a foundation for so much of what would be called leftwing thought. Christianity may have been the single greatest influence on European culture and beyond, but in terms of starting point for both modern political thought (not just leftist) and a revolution that sought to replace aristocracy with a party of the people that was the people and failed. While Neo-Marxist’s and others have wondered and sought to explain why Marx’s prophesied revolution never occurred, Marx and Engels both were mystified and sought to explain why it failed and what it meant. For example:

“The centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature – organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor – originates from the days of absolute monarchy, serving nascent middle class society as a mighty weapon in its struggle against feudalism. Still, its development remained clogged by all manner of medieval rubbish, seignorial rights, local privileges, municipal and guild monopolies, and provincial constitutions. The gigantic broom of the French Revolution of the 18th century swept away all these relics of bygone times, thus clearing simultaneously the social soil of its last hinderances to the superstructure of the modern state edifice raised under the First Empire, itself the offspring of the coalition wars of old semi-feudal Europe against modern France.”

Karl Marx’s The Civil War in France (translation by Friedrich Engels).

Lenin too was deeply interested in the failure of the French Revolution:

“Although the socialist proletariat was split up into numerous sects, the Commune was a splendid example of the unanimity with which the proletariat was able to accomplish the democratic tasks which the bourgeoisie could only proclaim. Without any particularly complex legislation, in a simple, straightforward manner, the proletariat, which had seized power, carried out the democratisation of the social system, abolished the bureaucracy, and made all official posts elective.

But two mistakes destroyed the fruits of the splendid victory. The proletariat stopped half-way: instead of setting about “expropriating the expropriators”, it allowed itself to be led astray by dreams of establishing a higher justice in the country united by a common national task; such institutions as the banks, for example, were not taken over, and Proudhonist theories about a “just exchange”, etc., still prevailed among the socialists. The second mistake was excessive magnanimity on the part of the proletariat: instead of destroying its enemies it sought to exert moral influence on them; it underestimated the significance of direct military operations in civil war, and instead of launching a resolute offensive against Versailles that would have crowned its victory in Paris, it tarried and gave the Versailles government time to gather the dark forces and prepare for the blood-soaked week of May.”
(https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mar/23.htm)

People are only need so much dissatisfaction to overthrow a monarch in any given place.
Monarchs and emperors held sway over brutalized peoples since before the invention of writing. Peasant revolutions during the Middle Ages were usually motivated by other factors and didn’t occur unless the lord violated the absolute minimal provisions required for his serfs (bare sustenance and protection against outside threats in return for basically slavery). It took a very special kind of mix of factors to allow for the idea that people had rights.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
An intelligent, balanced, factually and historically accurate discussion of fascism and socialism..... ...it's origins in the french revolution.... with quotes from Marx and Lenin....used in context... with references linking to original sources at marxists internet archive...

[breaks down in tears of joy because he doesn't have to listen to people saying how all commies are nazis.]

OH THANK GOD!

For @LegionOnomaMoi

:hugehug:
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Two reasons:

1) I'm working on trying to be less long-winded, and it is too easy for me to start something like the development of modern statistics with Greek geometry and write pages just to get to Kepler, several centuries before the founders of modern statistics were born (this happened).

It may be shorter, but it's still so dense!

2) Of the numerous roots for many 20th century political ideologies, few pre-date the early modern period and many were basically impossible.

Hmmm, I guess that depends on what is considered a root. As far as mimetic roots go, likely. The history was more accessible. The printing press really helps with that spreading and solidifying thoughts for centuries thing.

It's important, for example, to note that while there were many key components within Christian thought that became key aspects of political ideologies, few of these would even be recognizable to Christians before the medieval period and others not until the Protestant reformation. The exception is teleology, which DOES actually pre-date Jesus (and contemporaneous with Jesus; the Jesus movement wasn't the only Jewish movement or sect characterized at least partly by eschatology). However, after the destruction of the temple and the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism, Jewish eschatology changed (for one thing, Judaism became increasingly unified), Christian messianic expectations were obviously those of a return of the messiah, and when Christ failed to show when Paul and the Church fathers expected Christian eschatology began to turn into the millenarianism that was so influential across Europe and lasted long enough to be influential to radically secular political thought. Norman Cohn's The Pursuit of the Millennium remains (IMO) perhaps the best historical account of the various movements, cults, cult leaders, communes, etc. For example, centuries before Marx we find movements of socio-political uprising modelled on a return to what was perceived as the egalitarian commune Christ began, not only in action and persons but literature:

"alle thynges under hevene oughte to ben in cornune
He lyeth, as I leve, that to the lewed so precheth
For God made to men a lawe and Moyses it taughte
Non concupisces rem proximi tui"

[all things under heaven ought to be in common
He lives, as I live, who to the lewd so preaches
For God made to mean a law and Moses taught
Don't covet anything [that] belongs to those near you/ your neighbors]

Langlands Piers Plowman

Thanks, never thought about it on those terms.

Even more important striking is the literature from the Taborite eschatology and the anarchist-communist movement in Bohemia. We find, for example, in the writings of the historian Cosmas of Prague both a yearning for the idealistic communism of an (albeit partially imagined) past:

"...Nec quisquam "meum" dicere norat, sed ad instar monastice vite, quicquid habebant, "nostrum" ore, corde et opere sonabant"
[Neither did anyone know how to say "mine", but as in monastic life, whatsoever they had they called "ours" in tongue, heart, and deed]

and lamenting the current state of affairs:

"Proh dolor! Prospera in contraria, communia in propria cedunt"
[Oh Alas! [now] they exchange prosperity for its contrary, communal for private ownership]

We find communes in which cult leaders preached radical egalitarianism while having sex with any of the women they wished often becoming more tyrannical as they solidified power, peasant revolts that sought not only socioeconomic equality but the equality of the Kingdom of God which they believed their faith and actions would bring about, mystical anarchism, even the beginnings of nationalism.

Jesus, you've read The Chronicle of Czechs? It took me like five minutes to find out who Cosmas of Prague was. Is there a medieval European book you haven't read in it's original language yet? Pretty interesting stuff, would like to look at it. Sounds like Munster, Germany.

Because the French Revolution was preceded by and accompanied with a secular communist egalitarianism that served as a foundation for so much of what would be called leftwing thought.

The thing I have with the "right wing" "left wing" thing, is that any conception of right wing politics that currently exists now also preceded and accompanied the French Revolution. What isn't left-wing compared to a monarchy? And if the right-wing only favors such things as hereditary rule, who would prefer that over fascism, or any other alternative?

Also, the foundations of the French Revolution, as you said, are preceded by these ideas. Montesquieu's ideas were incredibly influential in the first wave of the Revolution, while Rousseau's conception of the people as the sovereign came later (I mean, it was written before, but took off later). Montesquieu basically was a French Locke, whose theories originated from his understandings of the right to things like "life, liberty and property."

The Enlightenment is root of most of the political theories as much as the French Revolution, and the influences of the Enlightenment are vast and range basically from Europe to China, exp:

"Fascinated by the ancient and impressive civilization in which they found themselves, these Europeans wrote home detailed accounts of what they saw. Their letters provided material for a long series of books on China, written usually in French or Latin and published in Paris, the European center of Jesuit activities. Among them were such works as Confucius, the Philosopher of the Chinese (1687); the Description of China (1735), in four volumes; the long series of Edifying and Curious Letters, in 34 volumes (1702-76); the General History of China, in 13 volumes (1777-85); and the lengthyMemoirs on the History, Sciences, Arts, etc., of the Chinese, in 16 volumes (1776-1814).

These writings gave Europeans a far more detailed and accurate picture of China than they had ever had before. They generated a tremendous enthusiasm for China and things Chinese — an enthusiasm that reached its peak in the early years of the second half of the eighteenth century. Materially, this enthusiasm powerfully influenced such fields as painting, architecture, landscape gardening, furniture, and the newly developed manufactures of porcelain and lacquerware — the well-known and charming chinoiserie of the eighteenth century. It also left a strong imprint on literature and on the thinking of some of the most famous intellectual figures of the period.

The timing of this impact from China was of particular importance. It reached Europe during a period of tremendous political and intellectual ferment. The Renaissance had brought to Europeans a renewed consciousness of their great classical heritage from the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome. This consciousness widened men's horizons. It helped to free them from the mental limitations that had been imposed during the Middle Ages by the dogmas of the church. Some began to question a spiritual authority that still taught that the sun and the rest of the universe revolve around the earth, well after Copernicus and Galileo had proved the reverse to be true. They were beginning to raise objections to the theory of the "divine right of kings" that permitted monarchs to rule as they pleased, without regard for the welfare of their people; to express doubts regarding the justice of a social system that allowed feudal aristocrats to lead lives of luxury while their peasant serfs starved; and to urge that men of education be given an increasing voice in public affairs.

Such ideas, gaining strength in the seventeenth century, led in the eighteenth to what was known as the Age of Enlightenment. Leaders of this movement, such as the Frenchman, Voltaire (1694-1778), believed that any human problem could be solved if men would only consent to live with one another on a basis of reason and common sense. Ideas of this sort culminated politically in the French Revolution of 1789. Socially, they gave a new dignity and freedom to the individual. Intellectually, they created a new, scientific method of thinking, based upon objective experimentation and observation, in place of the old, blind acceptance of unverified tradition. Thus were made possible the tremendous material advances that were to come later with the Industrial Revolution.

To men infected with these new ideas, China provided a powerful stimulus. For in China they saw a great civilization that had evolved quite independently of, and earlier than, their own. Although not a Christian nation, it had nevertheless developed in Confucianism a high system of morals of its own. And, unlike Europe, it had done so without permitting a priesthood to become so powerful as to challenge the state's authority. The emperor of China, furthermore, though seemingly an absolute ruler, was in actual fact limited by the teachings of Confucianism, which declared that "the people are the most important element in the state; the sovereign is the least." Particularly was China admired as a land where government did not rest in the hands of a feudal aristocracy, as in Europe. Instead, it was managed by the mandarins — a group of highly educated scholars — who gained their official positions only after proving their worth by passing a series of state-administered examinations. We know today that this highly favorable picture of China was somewhat over-painted. Yet there is little doubt that the China of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was, both politically and economically, in many ways ahead of Europe.

The story of how European thinkers of this period reacted to Chinese thought is a fascinating one that can only briefly be told here. The most striking example in the seventeenth century was the German philosopher, Leibniz (1646-1716), one of the most internationally minded men who ever lived. He read extensively on China, corresponded with Jesuits who had lived there, and wrote on Confucian philosophy. In a letter written in 1697, he announced: "I shall have to post a notice on my door: Bureau of Information for Chinese Knowledge."

Leibniz found in the mystic symbols contained in an ancient Chinese classic support for his own mathematical theories. There are striking parallels, too, between his philosophy and certain Confucian ideas. Above all, however, he had the dream of creating a new civilization that would be truly universal. This could be done, he believed, by consciously selecting and bringing together the best elements in Chinese and Western culture. This dream he expressed in a little book of 1697, Novissima Sinica or Latest News from China, in which he wrote: "I almost think it necessary that Chinese missionaries should be sent to us to teach the aims and practice of natural theology, as we send missionaries to them to instruct them in revealed religion." Leibniz's dream still remains, alas, only a dream!

By many of his contemporaries, however, such theories were regarded as dangerous and revolutionary. A disciple of Leibniz, Christian Wolff (1679-1754), suffered persecution because of his admiration for China. In a lecture delivered at the University of Halle in 1721, he praised the Chinese system for successfully harmonizing individual happiness with the welfare of the state. He maintained that Confucianism was fully adequate as a way of life; that there was no real conflict between it and Christianity. For these bold words he was immediately accused of atheism, and, after a bitter attack, was forced to give up his position in the university.

But the most famous leader of the Enlightenment to fall under the Chinese spell was Voltaire (1694-1778), to whom Confucius was the greatest of all sages. A portrait of Confucius adorned the wall of his library. He regarded China as the one country in the world where the ruler is at the same time a philosopher (Plato's "philosopher-king"). He praised it because it had no priesthood owning 20 percent of the land, and contrasted the religious tolerance of the Chinese, who had never tried to send missionaries to Europe, with the European habit of always forcing their own religious ideas upon other people. "One need not be obsessed with the merits of the Chinese," he wrote in 1764, "to recognize . . . that their empire is in truth the best that the world has ever seen.""

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/song/readings/inventions_ideas.htm#light

Christianity may have been the single greatest influence on European culture and beyond, but in terms of starting point for both modern political thought (not just leftist) and a revolution that sought to replace aristocracy with a party of the people that was the people and failed.

That's a strong claim, being the greatest influence. Why not the Roman Empire or the printing press? Influence is a peculiar term. No disagreement that divinely-based egalitarianism fails indefinitely. Especially for beyond. Some political theories, like Confucianism existed as strong forces for multiple countries from the third century BC until the end of the 19th century, and has a reemergence of political thought, as somewhat talked about above.

While Neo-Marxist’s and others have wondered and sought to explain why Marx’s prophesied revolution never occurred, Marx and Engels both were mystified and sought to explain why it failed and what it meant. For example:

“The centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature – organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor – originates from the days of absolute monarchy, serving nascent middle class society as a mighty weapon in its struggle against feudalism. Still, its development remained clogged by all manner of medieval rubbish, seignorial rights, local privileges, municipal and guild monopolies, and provincial constitutions. The gigantic broom of the French Revolution of the 18th century swept away all these relics of bygone times, thus clearing simultaneously the social soil of its last hinderances to the superstructure of the modern state edifice raised under the First Empire, itself the offspring of the coalition wars of old semi-feudal Europe against modern France.”

Karl Marx’s The Civil War in France (translation by Friedrich Engels).

Lenin too was deeply interested in the failure of the French Revolution:

“Although the socialist proletariat was split up into numerous sects, the Commune was a splendid example of the unanimity with which the proletariat was able to accomplish the democratic tasks which the bourgeoisie could only proclaim. Without any particularly complex legislation, in a simple, straightforward manner, the proletariat, which had seized power, carried out the democratisation of the social system, abolished the bureaucracy, and made all official posts elective.

But two mistakes destroyed the fruits of the splendid victory. The proletariat stopped half-way: instead of setting about “expropriating the expropriators”, it allowed itself to be led astray by dreams of establishing a higher justice in the country united by a common national task; such institutions as the banks, for example, were not taken over, and Proudhonist theories about a “just exchange”, etc., still prevailed among the socialists. The second mistake was excessive magnanimity on the part of the proletariat: instead of destroying its enemies it sought to exert moral influence on them; it underestimated the significance of direct military operations in civil war, and instead of launching a resolute offensive against Versailles that would have crowned its victory in Paris, it tarried and gave the Versailles government time to gather the dark forces and prepare for the blood-soaked week of May.”
(https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mar/23.htm)

Ah, Marx is basically wrong to conclude that there is a natural evolution of economic societies that will inevitable lead to communism. But retrospect and all.

Monarchs and emperors held sway over brutalized peoples since before the invention of writing. Peasant revolutions during the Middle Ages were usually motivated by other factors and didn’t occur unless the lord violated the absolute minimal provisions required for his serfs (bare sustenance and protection against outside threats in return for basically slavery). It took a very special kind of mix of factors to allow for the idea that people had rights.

And some several thousand years of human history on top of that.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It may be shorter, but it's still so dense!
Yes, I'm dense. But you don't have to rub it in. ;)



The printing press really helps with that spreading and solidifying thoughts for centuries thing.
C'est vrai!

Is there a medieval European book you haven't read in it's original language yet?
Many, alas (given my obsessive nature). "Of the writing of books there is no end."


The thing I have with the "right wing" "left wing" thing, is that any conception of right wing politics that currently exists now also preceded and accompanied the French Revolution
"Everyone knows what a curve is, until he has studied enough mathematics to become confused through the countless number of possible exceptions" (the great mathematician Felix Klein). I've found that the more one looks into some category/concept such as Gnosticism, curvature, right/left-wing, religion, science, theory, etc., the less clear and more nebulous these become. The "right-wing" & "left-wing" thing is a simplification, and an inadequate one at that. But typically this is all we have: inadequate umbrella concepts, arbitrary or semi-arbitrary cut-offs, unnecessary or mostly arbitrary distinctions, etc.

And if the right-wing only favors such things as hereditary rule, who would prefer that over fascism, or any other alternative?
Monarchism isn't necessarily hereditary, particularly the kind of despot/monarch of Platonic and Hobbesian thought.

Also, the foundations of the French Revolution, as you said, are preceded by these ideas. Montesquieu's ideas were incredibly influential in the first wave of the Revolution, while Rousseau's conception of the people as the sovereign came later (I mean, it was written before, but took off later). Montesquieu basically was a French Locke, whose theories originated from his understandings of the right to things like "life, liberty and property."
True, but the foundations (at least the really important ones that were somewhat contemporary) were also (primarily) French, and it was the French revolution which was an attempt to realize these ideas.

The Enlightenment is root of most of the political theories as much as the French Revolution, and the influences of the Enlightenment are vast and range basically from Europe to China, exp:
The Enlightenment is another one of those nebulous, problematic concepts. But it is far more "Eurocentric" (both in historical conceptualization and in realization) than is often realized in many ways, and to the extent it isn't, this is often in surprising ways.

“In the course of the later Middle Ages, the Chinese inventions of the compass, of printing, paper, explosives, and the effective rigging of sailing vessels found their way into Western Europe. Yet the Scientific Revolution did not occur in China, whose technical achievements were far superior to those of medieval Europe. Why the study of the natural world by Chinese and Arabic scholars did not result in the revolutionary changes that took place in Western Europe is a topic requiring further historical investigation. Part of such an effort must surely be an examination of some of the unique, important, and relatively rapid changes in European society and culture in the late Middle Ages and the Early Modern period.”
Applebaum, W. (2005). The Scientific Revolution and the Foundations of Modern Science (Greenwood Guides to Historic Events 1500-1900). Greenwood Press.

“The terms ‘science’ (in its modern meaning) and ‘scientist’ were introduced in the nineteenth century”
Gaukroger, S. (2006). The Emergence of a Scientific Culture: Science and the Shaping of Modernity 1210-1685. Oxford University Press.

"The scientific revolution with which we shall be concerned—the Scientific Revolution—is quite different from these. It is sometimes asked why the Scientific Revolution occurred in the West in the modern era and not, say, in China, or medieval Islam, or medieval Paris or Oxford. But it is the Scientific Revolution that requires explanation, not these developments: what is peculiar and exceptional is the nature of scientific development in the West in the modern era. Scientific developments in the classical and Hellenistic worlds, China, the medieval Islamic world, and medieval Paris and Oxford, share a distinctive feature. They each exhibit a pattern of slow, irregular, intermittent growth, alternating with substantial periods of stagnation, in which interest shifts to political, economic, technological, moral, or other questions. Science is just one of a number of activities in the culture, and attention devoted to it changes in the same way attention devoted to the other features may change, with the result that there is competition for intellectual resources within an overall balance of interests in the culture.
The ‘Scientific Revolution’ of the early-modern West breaks with the boom/bust pattern of all other scientific cultures, and what emerges is the uninterrupted and cumulative growth that constitutes the general rule for scientific development in the West since that time."
(ibid)

"In tracing over time a range of events which culminated in 17th-century Europe, I seek answers to two basic questions. The first is: How did modern science come into the world, and (as part of that question) why did this happen in Europe rather than in China or in Islamic civilization? The other question is: Why did this 17th-century breakthrough in the pursuit of knowledge about nature instigate the as-yet-unbroken chain of scientific growth that we are wont to take for granted in our own time, four centuries later?"
Cohen, H. F. (2010). How Modern Science Came into the World: Four Civilizations, One 17th-Century Breakthrough. Amsterdam University Press.

Of course, it is usually ignored yet nonetheless a fact that the “mystic orient” or the “East” represented a powerful influence on Western thought. However, it did so mainly through either Western colonialism, minimization, and dehumanization of Easterners and Eastern thought, or through romantic idealization (see e.g., Clarke, J. J. (2002). Oriental Enlightenment: The Encounter between Asian and Western Thought. Routledge.; King, R. (1999). Orientalism and Religion: Post-Colonial Theory, India and ‘The Mystic East’. Routledge.; Pennington, B. K. (2005). Was Hinduism Invented?: Britons, Indians, and the Colonial Construction of Religion. Oxford University Press.; Duchesne, R. (2011). The Uniqueness of Western Civilization (Studies in Critical Social Sciences Vol. 28). Brill.)

Ah, Marx is basically wrong to conclude that there is a natural evolution of economic societies that will inevitable lead to communism. But retrospect and all.
Indeed. It is said that "all solved problems are trivial". Turns out, even the solved one's can be anything but!
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Yes, I'm dense. But you don't have to rub it in. ;)

If it's truly dense, it will be hard rub anything in, though rubbing anything on it is a certainty. I kid.

By dense, I mean your posts have high rank on what I like to refer to (since I just made it up) on the content per word count (or CPWR). The higher the CPWR, the longer I gotta digest stuff and figure out the best way to respond. Also, I started, then the server went down, then I lost the information, then I had to find this thread again.

C'est vrai!

:upside down exclamation point:Bien! I'm getting there.

Many, alas (given my obsessive nature). "Of the writing of books there is no end."

Ah, well never knew medieval Europe and political theory fit somewhere in there too. Usually topics you avoid, I've gathered.

"Everyone knows what a curve is, until he has studied enough mathematics to become confused through the countless number of possible exceptions" (the great mathematician Felix Klein). I've found that the more one looks into some category/concept such as Gnosticism, curvature, right/left-wing, religion, science, theory, etc., the less clear and more nebulous these become. The "right-wing" & "left-wing" thing is a simplification, and an inadequate one at that. But typically this is all we have: inadequate umbrella concepts, arbitrary or semi-arbitrary cut-offs, unnecessary or mostly arbitrary distinctions, etc.

I don't necessarily disagree. If we were talking socialist/capitalist systems of government, that might be a different discussion. But I was under the impression that "leftist" generally meant a belief in equality (in some facet, I mean that has manifested thousands of different ways) and the "rightist" is a generally a reaction to leftism, a some indicator to some extent a need for hierarchy of some means, as opposed to say, equal income, equal power, equal rights, what have ya. Hitler, I mean, leftist to the extent that all people were equal in their own country and genetic caliber maybe... but it's difficult to reconcile complete equality of humanity and also be, like, you know, killing millions of various people for various nonsensical reasons.

Monarchism isn't necessarily hereditary, particularly the kind of despot/monarch of Platonic and Hobbesian thought.

True, but it usually is, and when it is by revolution, coup, voting, or military merit (or freak occurrence) and family members of such a monarch generally confers pretty awesome advantages, like land and power and money and mates, etc.

True, but the foundations (at least the really important ones that were somewhat contemporary) were also (primarily) French, and it was the French revolution which was an attempt to realize these ideas.

That is true, but it doesn't account for things like, the American Constitution, which might be problematic, if were explaining the history of leftism to a class. I'd also have difficulty accounting for innumerable revolutions in human history preceding it. I guess it's a reasonable point to start, but the foundations, the really important ones that were somewhat contemporary to the individuals in question are probably more significant to them than we give it credit for. Much like humans now romanticize and narrative the past, I suspect people did back then, probably even more so, since Stravinsky hadn't invented metal yet.

The Enlightenment is another one of those nebulous, problematic concepts. But it is far more "Eurocentric" (both in historical conceptualization and in realization) than is often realized in many ways, and to the extent it isn't, this is often in surprising ways.

That's fair enough. The French Revolution has the advantage of being, like, an actual physical event in history.

“In the course of the later Middle Ages, the Chinese inventions of the compass, of printing, paper, explosives, and the effective rigging of sailing vessels found their way into Western Europe. Yet the Scientific Revolution did not occur in China, whose technical achievements were far superior to those of medieval Europe. Why the study of the natural world by Chinese and Arabic scholars did not result in the revolutionary changes that took place in Western Europe is a topic requiring further historical investigation. Part of such an effort must surely be an examination of some of the unique, important, and relatively rapid changes in European society and culture in the late Middle Ages and the Early Modern period.”
Applebaum, W. (2005). The Scientific Revolution and the Foundations of Modern Science (Greenwood Guides to Historic Events 1500-1900). Greenwood Press.

“The terms ‘science’ (in its modern meaning) and ‘scientist’ were introduced in the nineteenth century”
Gaukroger, S. (2006). The Emergence of a Scientific Culture: Science and the Shaping of Modernity 1210-1685. Oxford University Press.

"The scientific revolution with which we shall be concerned—the Scientific Revolution—is quite different from these. It is sometimes asked why the Scientific Revolution occurred in the West in the modern era and not, say, in China, or medieval Islam, or medieval Paris or Oxford. But it is the Scientific Revolution that requires explanation, not these developments: what is peculiar and exceptional is the nature of scientific development in the West in the modern era. Scientific developments in the classical and Hellenistic worlds, China, the medieval Islamic world, and medieval Paris and Oxford, share a distinctive feature. They each exhibit a pattern of slow, irregular, intermittent growth, alternating with substantial periods of stagnation, in which interest shifts to political, economic, technological, moral, or other questions. Science is just one of a number of activities in the culture, and attention devoted to it changes in the same way attention devoted to the other features may change, with the result that there is competition for intellectual resources within an overall balance of interests in the culture.
The ‘Scientific Revolution’ of the early-modern West breaks with the boom/bust pattern of all other scientific cultures, and what emerges is the uninterrupted and cumulative growth that constitutes the general rule for scientific development in the West since that time."
(ibid)

"In tracing over time a range of events which culminated in 17th-century Europe, I seek answers to two basic questions. The first is: How did modern science come into the world, and (as part of that question) why did this happen in Europe rather than in China or in Islamic civilization? The other question is: Why did this 17th-century breakthrough in the pursuit of knowledge about nature instigate the as-yet-unbroken chain of scientific growth that we are wont to take for granted in our own time, four centuries later?"
Cohen, H. F. (2010). How Modern Science Came into the World: Four Civilizations, One 17th-Century Breakthrough. Amsterdam University Press.

'Tis all true, but history of science is one thing, and there are few individuals in proportion to the general population who actually contributed, many still believed nonsense stuff (technical term), and the roots of leftism, and or a determination for the problem of using this metric, unfortunately hasn't been solved by science yet, and when and if it does, I suspect it will probably have more to do availability of technically more or less eliminating labor, or altering the economy in some unforeseen way, then will be the emotions and thoughts of individual human beings and their various forms of group think.

Before science, there was philosophy, and before that, apparently something resembling a bonobo tribe, which by the way, engage in hierarchical control and revolutions and all that stuff. So I think there is much credence to the notion of revolution in general both being a phenomenon with roots in non-conscious behavior (or limited conscious behavior) and material conditions surrounding population groups. But I also don't really believe in free will, so...

Of course, it is usually ignored yet nonetheless a fact that the “mystic orient” or the “East” represented a powerful influence on Western thought. However, it did so mainly through either Western colonialism, minimization, and dehumanization of Easterners and Eastern thought, or through romantic idealization (see e.g., Clarke, J. J. (2002). Oriental Enlightenment: The Encounter between Asian and Western Thought. Routledge.; King, R. (1999). Orientalism and Religion: Post-Colonial Theory, India and ‘The Mystic East’. Routledge.; Pennington, B. K. (2005). Was Hinduism Invented?: Britons, Indians, and the Colonial Construction of Religion. Oxford University Press.; Duchesne, R. (2011). The Uniqueness of Western Civilization (Studies in Critical Social Sciences Vol. 28). Brill.)

That's fair enough, even my bit admits that. It's pretty big historical and culture barrier. I suspect Europeans and the Chinese didn't have great records of one another for a like time, so few trope and stereotypes that emerge from limited media was probably abundant and common.

Indeed. It is said that "all solved problems are trivial". Turns out, even the solved one's can be anything but!

Now if we can just fix that poverty and total failure of education in the world problem.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
The problem with Hitler was that he was neither left nor right. He was mad and ideological, and his politics pretended to be left or right depending on who he had to win over to grab more power over Germany.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem with Hitler was that he was neither left nor right. He was mad and ideological, and his politics pretended to be left or right depending on who he had to win over to grab more power over Germany.
The problem is that as much as Hitler personified the NAZI party and its ideals, he wasn't equivalent to it. In fact, neither Hitler nor the upper echelons of the NAZI party tended to even use the term "NAZI", and he did not begin his party but joined it.
 
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