Why have Islamic nations been so easy to corrupt?

[oldbadger]

Why has corrupting specific Muslims at leadership positions in various Islamic countries been so easy?

Most Sunni Muslims will tell you that they do not have leaders. No clergy, etc......
But, anyway, please will you name Muslim leaders that you had in mind? Any Muslim leader.

 

[dust1n]

Peace be on you.
1- IMO Your question is very valid and it is the basic question of current era with respect to Islam, weaknesses in its practice and its promised revival.

Ah, thanks very much!

2- Holy Quran and Holy Prophet (pbuh) of Islam had prophesied that various weaknesses would enter in Muslims in latter days. The reasons were told too. The corruption at leadership level (clergies and otherwise), loss of true knowledge, hunger for glitter of world etc.

Do you think affects complacency of corruption at times?

3- When one falls from height one is hurt more. Once Muslims were leaders of world in lot of good things, but then they gravitated, there practices weakened. They were granted bounties of nature by Allah but they did not use them with thankfulness and good of brethren. Take the example of oil. It just came out as bounty of Allah. It was drilled out by foreign help, then the same oil is used for killing those Muslims who differ in interpretations......For years, two Muslim countries fought each other and wasted their resources.

4- Internally they have various religious groups mostly with militant wings. One does not see them generally, working to establish morals and spirituality, but focus is to get political power. If a clever foreign ambassador comes and offers them financial and weapon help to them to get top political position on country in return for certain facilities (like trade routes, buying obsolete arms or approach to hidden natural resources), they go for it.

These definitely seem to be spot on, and accurate. Number 4 is definitely been exploited to it's fullest.

5- Beware, you are missing one thing in your question. Though they get easily corrupted but they fool west too. When they reach to a certain level of power, they start terrorism in west.

Oh this is very true indeed. Indeed, I was watching some footage from the Afghan war, in which in greatly explains how various groups were using solider against there personal enemies. To be the point where any one could claim anyone else to be Al Qaeda, and then they would be killed. In return, non-Al Qaeda people started attacking (since they were being attacked), in which the British assumed they were Al Qaeda. And what ends up happening is complete civil war, while British troops are on the ground, and Al Qaeda in general, is not even on the seen.

This sort of quick-to-attack, quick-to-arm approach on part of American foreign policy is so dangerous for so many people. It's changing more now, but for the last 40 years, we've been shipping arms to basically anyone.

6- So picture is larger. West is drifting away from religion (because of incompetency of existing religion of theirs) and it is East, getting corrupt on the name of religion.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant here, but I'm assuming you are saying the Eastern, or in particular Islamic countries, corruption is often done, but masked in the name of religion.

7- The solution (prophesied in major religions and in Islam) is the only solution. Believe in latter days reformer sent by God as mercy. [Ref: Ahmadiyya DIR in Islam DIR in RF]. The tragedy is that when God sends reformers for their benefits, people start calling them false. But eventually they prevail as it is a destiny.

In short, current Muslims are easy to get corrupted because:
=corruption at religious and political leadership level and lack of knowledge.
=abuse of gifted resources.
=role of foreign anti-truth forces.
=denial of God's sent reformer.

I hope so. The world is far too short of reformers. Thanks Dawud for your thoughtful reply and honesty. I'm gonna sit and think some more about some of this stuff tonight.

 

[fantome profane]

If you move the thread to economic debates you will find more answers than in the religious debates. Trade between the East and West has traditionally involved a lot of money, and the Near East/Middle East has always stood in the way. We have found ways around, and even over, but today the dispute revolves around more specifically the trade routes of oil. There is also a tremendous Western influence, which has only further deteriorated social conditions as this gives people an even lesser sense of control over their lives and culture.

But it is all so interconnected. You can't separate out one element from the others. Religion, politics, economics, culture. Trying to take the religion out of it is like trying to take the egg out of a piece of cake.

 

[oldbadger]

It is interesting to me. I mean, if you can convince someone that you are true Muslim, then you have implicitly convinced that you are incorruptible, if people believe a true Muslim can't be corrupted.

It's the same in the West, if you can convince someone that you are an Honest person.
There are true Muslims out there, and true Honest people, but you don't know who they are..........
So the problem is not with Islam, but with people who get deceived too easily!

In the West, the word 'Science' is a truth pill that deceivers can use.
Put your hands in the air......
Science says, 'Put your hands in the air.....'

 

[fantome profane]

It's the same in the West, if you can convince someone that you are an Honest person.
There are true Muslims out there, and true Honest people, but you don't know who they are..........
So the problem is not with Islam, but with people who get deceived too easily!

In the West, the word 'Science' is a truth pill that deceivers can use.
Put your hands in the air......
Science says, 'Put your hands in the air.....'

And wave them like you just don't care.

 

[dust1n]

Most Sunni Muslims will tell you that they do not have leaders. No clergy, etc......

That just goes to show how dumb I am. I had no idea. This sort of also confuses me. Sunni Muslims value hadiths, right? I thought this was a centralized religion sort of issue.

But, anyway, please will you name Muslim leaders that you had in mind? Any Muslim leader.

Hmm, I could say some names, but I'm sure it would be accurate. Which is why I was sorting of asking in regards, because I was hoping to learn of instances people found objectionable.

But plenty of Muslims find the Saud Royal Family to be corrupt. At the same time, Saudi Arabia is explicitly propagating Wahhabism throughout the country. And their power has basically been maintained via oil sells to America for the last 60 years. Heck, we even do a bit of their bidding to maintain this oil relationship and positioning in the Middle East. It's quite strange to me.

 

[dust1n]

It's the same in the West, if you can convince someone that you are an Honest person.
There are true Muslims out there, and true Honest people, but you don't know who they are..........
So the problem is not with Islam, but with people who get deceived too easily!

In the West, the word 'Science' is a truth pill that deceivers can use.
Put your hands in the air......
Science says, 'Put your hands in the air.....'

This is very true. I think corruption works very similarly in the West as it does most places. But I'm hoping to mainly learn some differences.

 

[oldbadger]

That just goes to show how dumb I am. I had no idea. This sort of also confuses me. Sunni Muslims value hadiths, right? I thought this was a centralized religion sort of issue.

I only found that out a short while ago...... And Sunni Muslims think that Shi'ite Ayatollahs and Mullahs etc are laughable......... honest.

Hmm, I could say some names, but I'm sure it would be accurate. Which is why I was sorting of asking in regards, because I was hoping to learn of instances people found objectionable.

But plenty of Muslims find the Saud Royal Family to be corrupt. At the same time, Saudi Arabia is explicitly propagating Wahhabism throughout the country. And their power has basically been maintained via oil sells to America for the last 60 years. Heck, we even do a bit of their bidding to maintain this oil relationship and positioning in the Middle East. It's quite strange to me.

Yeah, but how is that any different from China, or England or America? Or anywhere?
The single most important ingredient to be found in any honesty-cake is the same ingredient that you'll find in a cake riddled with deception, terror, lies and scumbags = humanity.

All you need is humans and you're almost bound to be on the road to corruption.

In England we are discovering just how utterly corrupt many of our hierarchies are. Look at the 2004 Iraq war, which was started on a total deception over non existent WMDs. Our Doctor Kelly discovered that every site he inspected was a fraud, and then, just as he was speaking out he had a strange death in his local woods.

If you want to find corruption, go find a community, any community.

 

[Quagmire]

Then allow me to rephrase my question.

Why has corrupting specific Muslims at leadership positions in various Islamic countries been so easy?

Probably because they were already corrupt. I'm not very well versed in Middle Eastern politics or history, but I'm guessing it's safe to assume that what's happened/happening there at least roughly follows patterns familiar in other parts of the world under Western economic and political influence: in developing counties, there's almost always a very small segment of the population controlling almost all of the wealth. These are the people Western powers generally deal with when they get involved in a developing nations economy, and typically this small percentage of the population already has a "Let them eat cake" attitude towards the rest of the population.

It isn't a specifically Muslim scenario in any sense: it's happened and is happening in parts of (non-Mediterranean) Africa, Asia, and South America, where the predominant religion might be Buddhism, Christianity, or some hybrid of Christianity mixed with elements of traditional/indigenous spirituality.

It just doesn't get as much press in those regions because, from the perspective of the typical Westerner, there isn't as much at stake.

 

[dust1n]

I only found that out a short while ago...... And Sunni Muslims think that Shi'ite Ayatollahs and Mullahs etc are laughable......... honest.

I guess I could understand that, as far as I can understand the various factions. But do Sunni's not consider Imam's religious leaders? Maybe it's more of a "preacher" sort of thing like in Christianity. A spiritual leader, but not divinely sanctioned, I guess.

Oh boy, maybe someone might clear that up if they wish to.

Yeah, but how is that any different from China, or England or America? Or anywhere?
The single most important ingredient to be found in any honesty-cake is the same ingredient that you'll find in a cake riddled with deception, terror, lies and scumbags = humanity.

All you need is humans and you're almost bound to be on the road to corruption.

In England we are discovering just how utterly corrupt many of our hierarchies are. Look at the 2004 Iraq war, which was started on a total deception over non existent WMDs. Our Doctor Kelly discovered that every site he inspected was a fraud, and then, just as he was speaking out he had a strange death in his local woods.

If you want to find corruption, go find a community, any community.

Presumably, it's very much the same. I think there is commonality with Westerns and Muslims in wanting self-determination and freedom from corrupt politics. I certainly hope to illustrate that any sort of active Western corruption, or attack against Muslim leaders for their local corruptions, is not in the interest over the overwhelming majority for the common people, either American or Middle Eastern of any sort.

The only difference I can think of is the straight forwardness of it. I don't know about Britain, but I'm willing to bet if you ask an American or a Chinese person if their system is too full of corruption many would agree.

But there isn't really a foreign enemy America can come up with to justify its own corruption. It's just blatant. Their isn't foreign influence, at least, not much.

But this isn't so much the case in the Middle East, where Westerns, Russians, Chinese are continuously engaging themselves in their politics.

 

[dust1n]

Probably because they were already corrupt. I'm not very well versed in Middle Eastern politics or history, but I'm guessing it's safe to assume that what's happened/happening there at least roughly follows patterns familiar in other parts of the world under Western economic and political influence: in developing counties, there's almost always a very small segment of the population controlling almost all of the wealth. These are the people Western powers generally deal with when they get involved in a developing nations economy, and typically this small percentage of the population already has a "Let them eat cake" attitude towards the rest of the population.

It isn't a specifically Muslim scenario in any sense: it's happened and is happening in parts of (non-Mediterranean) Africa, Asia, and South America, where the predominant religion might be Buddhism, Christianity, or some hybrid of Christianity mixed with elements of traditional/indigenous spirituality.

It just doesn't get as much press in those regions because, from the perspective of the typical Westerner, there isn't as much at stake.

I think I agree with all of your sentiments here.

So where do you fall on it? I mean, do you find this form of foreign policy detrimental?

 

[Quagmire]

I think I agree with all of your sentiments here.

So where do you fall on it? I mean, do you find this form of foreign policy detrimental?

Offhand, I can't think of one instance where the imposition or implementation of free-market capitalism and raw democracy (in the form of automatic universal suffrage) without any corresponding social safety-nets hasn't resulted in disaster.

And that's just when we (the First-World Western nations) are being at last sort-of above-board about things.

 

[DawudTalut]

Ah, thanks very much!

Thank you very much for reading.

Do you think affects complacency of corruption at times?

I did not get this, perhaps you mean those who do corruption feel satisfaction? if so, they may feel satisfaction in short term but end is not theirs, never have been.

These definitely seem to be spot on, and accurate. Number 4 is definitely been exploited to it's fullest.

Thanks.

Oh this is very true indeed. Indeed, I was watching some footage from the Afghan war, in which in greatly explains how various groups were using solider against there personal enemies. To be the point where any one could claim anyone else to be Al Qaeda, and then they would be killed. In return, non-Al Qaeda people started attacking (since they were being attacked), in which the British assumed they were Al Qaeda. And what ends up happening is complete civil war, while British troops are on the ground, and Al Qaeda in general, is not even on the seen.

This sort of quick-to-attack, quick-to-arm approach on part of American foreign policy is so dangerous for so many people. It's changing more now, but for the last 40 years, we've been shipping arms to basically anyone.

Such things weaken every one.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant here, but I'm assuming you are saying the Eastern, or in particular Islamic countries, corruption is often done, but masked in the name of religion.

True.

I hope so. The world is far too short of reformers. Thanks Dawud for your thoughtful reply and honesty. I'm gonna sit and think some more about some of this stuff tonight.

If you have agreed so far, it should not be too much if I humbly request you find books and philosophies of peace for whole world by Ahmadiyya-Muslims here @ Islamic Books | Online Islamic Library - Al Islam Online [wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/ ], even if you are not a religious person you will find a lot of wisdom there.

Thanks indeed. Wish and pray best for you and world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But it is all so interconnected. You can't separate out one element from the others. Religion, politics, economics, culture. Trying to take the religion out of it is like trying to take the egg out of a piece of cake.

Religion is a factor, but not nearly as important as economic and political reasons. Even if the Middle East were mostly atheistic, they still wouldn't like outsiders taking over and telling them how to run their own society.

 

[gsa]

Religion is a factor, but not nearly as important as economic and political reasons. Even if the Middle East were mostly atheistic, they still wouldn't like outsiders taking over and telling them how to run their own society.

Would they be murdering gays, veiling women, beheading Christians and apostates? Using prophecy to help guide military strategy? The "anti-imperialism"of the Islamists is incidental. Leftists in the Middle East are also opposed to occupation and meddling, but they're not interested in jihad.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Would they be murdering gays, veiling women, beheading Christians and apostates? Using prophecy to help guide military strategy? The "anti-imperialism"of the Islamists is incidental. Leftists in the Middle East are also opposed to occupation and meddling, but they're not interested in jihad.

That extent cannot be established. But atheist regimes have resorted to barbarous cruelty and genocide so the scenario is not without historical precedence. I would also not lump anti-imperialism with radical Muslims, as many people have been very staunchly anti-imperialist, caused a lot of troubles for some over it, but bombings and beheading were not their goal. And as for the anti-imperialism in the Middle East, I really can't blame them if they hate it. The West has invaded their culture, it is taking over, Western establishments are all over the place, and the American government even took it upon itself to overthrow a leader, take over a nation, and shape a new government to its own liking. I'd be pretty pissed off too.
But it can be established that even if the Middle East were mostly atheist, they still would not like outsiders coming into their home and trying to rearrange things and tell them how to run things. I don't think that many people would like this happening to them.

 

[FearGod]

That just goes to show how dumb I am. I had no idea. This sort of also confuses me. Sunni Muslims value hadiths, right? I thought this was a centralized religion sort of issue.



Hmm, I could say some names, but I'm sure it would be accurate. Which is why I was sorting of asking in regards, because I was hoping to learn of instances people found objectionable.

But plenty of Muslims find the Saud Royal Family to be corrupt. At the same time, Saudi Arabia is explicitly propagating Wahhabism throughout the country. And their power has basically been maintained via oil sells to America for the last 60 years. Heck, we even do a bit of their bidding to maintain this oil relationship and positioning in the Middle East. It's quite strange to me.

And the US is supporting the Saudi Royal family.

 

[Shia Islam]

Hello. I just wanted some varied opinions from all you crazy kids out there.

Whether it be UK, or America, Russia, Saudi Arabia... why are so many countries so easily corrupted by the Western influences that are often being claim to be fought?

I noticed this issue where the West is identified as the cause of some problem in the ME (which has, no doubt, happened in various ways and times), but there seems to be a bit a disagreement about how much "West" is influencing even given region.

So then my question is, why has it been so easy for Islamic nations to be manipulated from outside forces.

I'm just curious as to what all the possible answer might be. Thanks.

This direct answer is that these nations are run by dictators who see their people as the threat, and seek help from the outside to continue oppressing their own people.

But why are the [Islamic] countries tend to be run by dictators. As a Shia- and with respect to my Sunni brothers and sisters- i see the cause to be clear. The majority of the Muslims turned back after the death of their prophet. They altered their religion. And declared that fighting their dictators is not allowed in Islam. I am not making this up. it is in their main books. you can Google search it.

 

[FearGod]

This direct answer is that these nations are run by dictators who see their people as the threat, and seek help from the outside to continue oppressing their own people.

But why are the [Islamic] countries tend to be run by dictators. As a Shia- and with respect to my Sunni brothers and sisters- i see the cause to be clear. The majority of the Muslims turned back after the death of their prophet. They altered their religion. And declared that fighting their dictators is not allowed in Islam. I am not making this up. it is in their main books. you can Google search it.

But the ISIS are sunnis and they're fighting against the Arab leaders.

 

[oldbadger]

I guess I could understand that, as far as I can understand the various factions. But do Sunni's not consider Imam's religious leaders? Maybe it's more of a "preacher" sort of thing like in Christianity. A spiritual leader, but not divinely sanctioned, I guess.

Oh boy, maybe someone might clear that up if they wish to.

Imam? A US member from out in the Boomdocks (South Dakota I think...... he told me what Boomdocks means) is an elderly convert to Islam, and the very small Muslim community chose him to be the Imam because of his age. I am name-dyslexic and can't remember it. He may join this debate........ a very wise and sensible debater.

I think there is commonality with Westerns and Muslims in wanting self-determination and freedom from corrupt politics.

I think that mostly any politics (even tyranny), and any system, with any mixture of Atheism or Theism, amongst any cultures.... can be fine.......... it's just the bloody (bad) people who bugger it all up with greed for power, mammon, status blah blah....... I just look at people.....

EDIT: The only issues I have had with Islam in Britain have been about forcing children to learn the qu'ran to Hafiz standard (gains the parents a place in heaven) and treatment of women. I was only supported over Islamic education in the UK by one RF member from Maine....... our authorities are finding and stopping educational extremism where they find it, now.