Why I am an atheist.

[TeabagSalad]

I joined these forums a couple of weeks back but due to having a couple of really busy weeks I haven't really had a chance to post anything. Fortunately things have calmed down a bit now so I thought that I would post something detailing the main reasons as to why I am an atheist. This is by no means a complete list of all the reasons but I've tried to summerise the main reasons and I've tried to put them in the same order as I encountered them through my life.

A little background:

I was born in the late 70s and raised in the UK as a Church of England Christian. Of the children and teenagers in the small town in which I lived I was one of the very few kids that was active in the local church. I attended Church every Sunday with my family and by the time I was in my mid teens I was confirmed and a very active member of the church. I did reading and talks in the Church and helped my Mum out for the few years that she ran the Sunday School. It was said on a couple of occasions by my fellow church goers that if I wasn't so completely tone deaf I could have made a good vicar.

My de-conversion began when I left home to go to University where I read Physics...

Pascal's Wager

I remember either reading (or possibly figuring out) Pascal's Wager a couple of years before I went to University. At first I thought that it was a very powerful reason for believing in God. It sat well with my mathematical mind. Then, at University I encountered people of different faiths (Muslims, Jews etc) and found that they could make exactly the same argument for their Gods. This rather undermined the entire wager. This additional understanding started to create real doubts about my faith.

The nature of the universe

As I continued my study of physics at university I started to gain a much deeper understanding of the nature of the universe. Lots of things that I believed about the nature of things started to be unravelled as they just didn't match up with the evidence. I tried to reconcile these differences but no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't. And I couldn't deny the evidence as it was right in front of my face.

Problem of evil/contradictory nature of God

I remember a friend at University bringing up the “Problem of Evil” in a late night discussion over a couple of drinks in the Students Union. While I tried to argue against it I found it really blew my concept of a perfectly good God out of the water. It also led on to other contradictions in the nature of God that I just couldn't reconcile with the world around me. The traditional facets assigned to God (all knowing, all powerful, all loving) actually contradict each other when compared to observation of things around us.

When I left University I still considered myself a Christian and I still went to Church but I had many, many questions and my faith wasn't as strong as it once was. I had many long conversations with other Christians at my church but none of them were able to counter the arguments I had encountered and quite often they would just chose to ignore things or “hand wave” things away.

Over the course of many years I thought a lot about things and by the time I was in my mid-twenties I discovered that I no longer believed in the Christian God. For a while I was a deist but eventually I had to own up (to myself and others) that I really just didn't believe in God...hence I am an atheist.

I haven't gone into a lot of detail on things and this certainly isn't a complete list of the reasons why I lost my faith but I think that it covers the major points. I'd love to hear what other people have to say and to discuss any of the points I have raised.


Kindest Regards,

TeabagSalad

 

[Robert.Evans]

I joined these forums a couple of weeks back but due to having a couple of really busy weeks I haven't really had a chance to post anything. Fortunately things have calmed down a bit now so I thought that I would post something detailing the main reasons as to why I am an atheist. This is by no means a complete list of all the reasons but I've tried to summerise the main reasons and I've tried to put them in the same order as I encountered them through my life.

A little background:

I was born in the late 70s and raised in the UK as a Church of England Christian. Of the children and teenagers in the small town in which I lived I was one of the very few kids that was active in the local church. I attended Church every Sunday with my family and by the time I was in my mid teens I was confirmed and a very active member of the church. I did reading and talks in the Church and helped my Mum out for the few years that she ran the Sunday School. It was said on a couple of occasions by my fellow church goers that if I wasn't so completely tone deaf I could have made a good vicar.

My de-conversion began when I left home to go to University where I read Physics...

Pascal's Wager

I remember either reading (or possibly figuring out) Pascal's Wager a couple of years before I went to University. At first I thought that it was a very powerful reason for believing in God. It sat well with my mathematical mind. Then, at University I encountered people of different faiths (Muslims, Jews etc) and found that they could make exactly the same argument for their Gods. This rather undermined the entire wager. This additional understanding started to create real doubts about my faith.

The nature of the universe

As I continued my study of physics at university I started to gain a much deeper understanding of the nature of the universe. Lots of things that I believed about the nature of things started to be unravelled as they just didn't match up with the evidence. I tried to reconcile these differences but no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't. And I couldn't deny the evidence as it was right in front of my face.

Problem of evil/contradictory nature of God

I remember a friend at University bringing up the “Problem of Evil” in a late night discussion over a couple of drinks in the Students Union. While I tried to argue against it I found it really blew my concept of a perfectly good God out of the water. It also led on to other contradictions in the nature of God that I just couldn't reconcile with the world around me. The traditional facets assigned to God (all knowing, all powerful, all loving) actually contradict each other when compared to observation of things around us.

When I left University I still considered myself a Christian and I still went to Church but I had many, many questions and my faith wasn't as strong as it once was. I had many long conversations with other Christians at my church but none of them were able to counter the arguments I had encountered and quite often they would just chose to ignore things or “hand wave” things away.

Over the course of many years I thought a lot about things and by the time I was in my mid-twenties I discovered that I no longer believed in the Christian God. For a while I was a deist but eventually I had to own up (to myself and others) that I really just didn't believe in God...hence I am an atheist.

I haven't gone into a lot of detail on things and this certainly isn't a complete list of the reasons why I lost my faith but I think that it covers the major points. I'd love to hear what other people have to say and to discuss any of the points I have raised.


Kindest Regards,

TeabagSalad

If I haven't said it before, from someone else in the UK, Hello and welcome.. (David Frost used to say that)

I would say that your concept of God and understanding of scripture is wrong. Science being right is not a reason to not believe in God. Francis Collins is a top scientist and almost half of the scientific world believes, so it is not a problem. What is within you is probably wanting such an answer. You see, we end up being what we are, what we were before we were born.... long subject. So I feel you are only following what you already are, rather than understanding things better now. But it is interesting how we see things eh.
As for the ''Good God'' does that not imply there is also an ''Evil God'', or how can you have Good? Left must have Right must it not? Or how is there Left?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Like the name though, but don't invite me for dinner

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to outline your personal journey to your current beliefs. Or, rather, non-belief.

The main reflection I had on reading it was around some Youtube vids I watched at some time, explaining from a former Christian their own process of deconversion (or however it might be termed). It was a quite intellectual examination of the process, although for the life of me I can't remember the name of the vid series...

Anyway, the most salient point was that there was no single episode or 'proof' that led this particular former Christian to become an atheist. Rather, it was a series of different things, from different sources. Each on their own could be brushed aside, and the cognitive dissonance involved would not be compelling. But together they undermined several different aspects of faith.

Logic and science, as well as personal argument all seem to have played a role in your journey, hence that was brought to mind to me. Welcome to RF!

 

[TeabagSalad]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to outline your personal journey to your current beliefs. Or, rather, non-belief.

The main reflection I had on reading it was around some Youtube vids I watched at some time, explaining from a former Christian their own process of deconversion (or however it might be termed). It was a quite intellectual examination of the process, although for the life of me I can't remember the name of the vid series...

Anyway, the most salient point was that there was no single episode or 'proof' that led this particular former Christian to become an atheist. Rather, it was a series of different things, from different sources. Each on their own could be brushed aside, and the cognitive dissonance involved would not be compelling. But together they undermined several different aspects of faith.

Logic and science, as well as personal argument all seem to have played a role in your journey, hence that was brought to mind to me. Welcome to RF!

Absolutely, well certainly for me. I think it probably took over 10 years and a lot of different events and realisations over that time. In some ways it was possibly the most difficult journey of my life. It certainly caused a lot of self-doubt, depression and difficulties along the way. In the end though I have ended up (I think) much happier than I ever was when I was religious.

And, thanks for the welcome, it is good to be here.

 

[Sabour]

I remember either reading (or possibly figuring out) Pascal's Wager a couple of years before I went to University. At first I thought that it was a very powerful reason for believing in God. It sat well with my mathematical mind. Then, at University I encountered people of different faiths (Muslims, Jews etc) and found that they could make exactly the same argument for their Gods. This rather undermined the entire wager. This additional understanding started to create real doubts about my faith.

I can't seem to understand what was the problem with that. Not that I know the Pascal's reasons, but Judiasm, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths that "supposedly" believe in the same God. So it was normal to hear them making the same arguments.

Welcome to the RF.

 

[allfoak]

The journey you are on is perfectly normal.
It seems you have just come up against a few difficult questions and have yet to find the answers.
Do not abandon reason or intuition.
The pendulum of life tends to swing from pole to pole unless we put a stop to it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sounds rough. I had it easy....I was born not believing, & I just stayed that way. But tis good that you eventually found the best path.

 

[seeking4truth]

There are many who would call themselves atheists these days but I do wonder what concept of God they have that has caused them to deny that a creator of some kind exists.

Science explains what does exist and how it functions. Belief in God does not contradict the laws of nature. Science is an explanation of what is known it at the moment and science is constantly updating and re-explaining how it understands the functioning of the universe.
It doesn't explain how it exists or why.

Can you explain, with your knowledge of physics, how the laws of nature were enacted and available at the same time matter and/or energy were produced?
Once matter and energy exists evolution is possible according to the laws but at what point did the laws come into existence?

Knowledge of man's physical and psychological development has increased and perhaps some people think we know it all and science has tried to explain how these function.
Not yet has science been able to explain man's spiritual life and yet all cultures and throughout many ages it has been a major part of man's experience however he expresses it.

 

[TeabagSalad]

If I haven't said it before, from someone else in the UK, Hello and welcome.. (David Frost used to say that)

Thank you. I kinda miss David Frost, he was a very gifted man and I liked his ability to cut through the political crap to the real heart of the matter in an interview.

I would say that your concept of God and understanding of scripture is wrong.

Can I ask what it is about what I said that makes you think that my concept of God and understanding of scripture is wrong?

Science being right is not a reason to not believe in God.

That is true, but there is no theory in science that requires there to be a God. Strictly speaking science doesn't really have a lot to say on God - science is the study of the natural world and God by definition is supernatural and thus outside the realm of science. However, Gods have traditional been used as an explanation for things that are not understood - from creating the world to making the rain fall. We now know that gravity is (largely) responsible for the creation of the solar system and also is the thing that makes rain fall.

We may not have a complete understanding of everything and we may never but the "mysterious ways" of God(s) is an ever shrinking pool of the unknown. And it's more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" than it is to say "God did it".

Francis Collins is a top scientist and almost half of the scientific world believes, so it is not a problem.

I'm sorry but that is both an appeal to authority and an appeal to "majority" both of which are logical fallacies.

What is within you is probably wanting such an answer. You see, we end up being what we are, what we were before we were born.... long subject. So I feel you are only following what you already are, rather than understanding things better now. But it is interesting how we see things eh.

If I am honest I don't really get what you're trying to say here. I understand things better now because I know more than I did when I was in my late teens and early 20s. I've done a lot more reading, thinking and I've experienced a lot more.

I don't agree with your assertion that we end up being what we were before we were born; we are the net result of our experiences. The experiences we have throughout our lives changes who we are and what we think.

As for the ''Good God'' does that not imply there is also an ''Evil God'', or how can you have Good? Left must have Right must it not? Or how is there Left?

Again I don't really get what you are trying to say here. I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying with regards to the "problem of evil" - could you give a bit more of an explanation as to what you are getting at?

Kindest Regards,

TeabagSalad

 

[TeabagSalad]

Sounds rough. I had it easy....I was born not believing, & I just stayed that way. But tis good that you eventually found the best path.

I don't know if I'd call it rough, there were certainly times where it was difficult but at the end of the day it was an experience. One that played a large part in shaping who I am. So, I'll take the rough with the smooth and just try to enjoy as much as I can

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know if I'd call it rough, there were certainly times where it was difficult but at the end of the day it was an experience. One that played a large part in shaping who I am. So, I'll take the rough with the smooth and just try to enjoy as much as I can

Your journey might also give you greater appreciation for the true meaning of atheism!

 

[Thana]

Well, I never really know what to say to these kinds of posts. I'm a Theist, so obviously I believe you're wrong but I won't argue it. I guess I'm supposed to say whatever makes you happy, But I don't want to pander to you.

So I'll just say knowledge is the most valuable thing in this world in my mind, I think you should never stop searching for answers and never give up. Don't become complacent, I cannot prove God and you cannot disprove Him, Both of us should never stop questioning our beliefs and searching for answers. That's just my 2 cents anyway.

 

[TeabagSalad]

Well, I never really know what to say to these kinds of posts. I'm a Theist, so obviously I believe you're wrong but I won't argue it. I guess I'm supposed to say whatever makes you happy, But I don't want to pander to you.

So I'll just say knowledge is the most valuable thing in this world in my mind, I think you should never stop searching for answers and never give up. Don't become complacent, I cannot prove God and you cannot disprove Him, Both of us should never stop questioning our beliefs and searching for answers. That's just my 2 cents anyway.

In my humble opinion what you said is worth much much more than 2 cents.

Kindest Regards,

TeabagSalad

 

[`mud]

hey Teabag,
If one believes in the existance of angels, one must have a problem with one's beliefs.
I guess the belief in God and his cohorts must follow.
Clouds and lightning all dissapear, the winds blow forever.
Believing in the natural beauty all around is the realism of life.
Trust your inward gnosis, remember....Life is Stuff.
~
Welcome to the threads, but beware the dark creases between the posts.
~
'mud

 

[Robert.Evans]

Thank you. I kinda miss David Frost, he was a very gifted man and I liked his ability to cut through the political crap to the real heart of the matter in an interview.



Can I ask what it is about what I said that makes you think that my concept of God and understanding of scripture is wrong?



That is true, but there is no theory in science that requires there to be a God. Strictly speaking science doesn't really have a lot to say on God - science is the study of the natural world and God by definition is supernatural and thus outside the realm of science. However, Gods have traditional been used as an explanation for things that are not understood - from creating the world to making the rain fall. We now know that gravity is (largely) responsible for the creation of the solar system and also is the thing that makes rain fall.

We may not have a complete understanding of everything and we may never but the "mysterious ways" of God(s) is an ever shrinking pool of the unknown. And it's more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" than it is to say "God did it".



I'm sorry but that is both an appeal to authority and an appeal to "majority" both of which are logical fallacies.



If I am honest I don't really get what you're trying to say here. I understand things better now because I know more than I did when I was in my late teens and early 20s. I've done a lot more reading, thinking and I've experienced a lot more.

I don't agree with your assertion that we end up being what we were before we were born; we are the net result of our experiences. The experiences we have throughout our lives changes who we are and what we think.



Again I don't really get what you are trying to say here. I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying with regards to the "problem of evil" - could you give a bit more of an explanation as to what you are getting at?

Kindest Regards,

TeabagSalad

I won't clutter up your space here, anyway, these things are being debated all the time, so it stops me repeating myself too many times. You certainly sound like an atheist though.... you're already misunderstanding (my view of course) See you later no doubt, then the fun will begin... haha

 

[TeabagSalad]

I won't clutter up your space here, anyway, these things are being debated all the time, so it stops me repeating myself too many times. You certainly sound like an atheist though.... you're already misunderstanding (my view of course) See you later no doubt, then the fun will begin... haha

Clutter away if you like. Or if you want start and new thread and explain what you think I am misunderstanding and I'll address it.

Cheers - TeabagSalad

 

[lewisnotmiller]

There are many who would call themselves atheists these days but I do wonder what concept of God they have that has caused them to deny that a creator of some kind exists.

There are also many who would call themselves theists, and I commonly wonder how they deny almost all God(s), but decide one flavour is worthy of worship.

Science explains what does exist and how it functions. Belief in God does not contradict the laws of nature. Science is an explanation of what is known it at the moment and science is constantly updating and re-explaining how it understands the functioning of the universe.
It doesn't explain how it exists or why.

This can be true, dependent on the version of God(s) one believes in. I, for one, would never claim to be able to prove there is no God. I see no evidence for one, therefore I'm an atheist. Others can make up their own minds, so long as they don't push religiously based limitations on others.

Can you explain, with your knowledge of physics, how the laws of nature were enacted and available at the same time matter and/or energy were produced?
Once matter and energy exists evolution is possible according to the laws but at what point did the laws come into existence?

Can you explain why you feel the need to have an answer for everthing, right now, and that simply saying 'Buggered if I know, why don't we try and eventually figure it out?' isn't a valid answer?

Knowledge of man's physical and psychological development has increased and perhaps some people think we know it all and science has tried to explain how these function.

Not, I think, anyone with much of an idea about science.

Not yet has science been able to explain man's spiritual life and yet all cultures and throughout many ages it has been a major part of man's experience however he expresses it.

Most men over time have had vastly different creation stories from one another, but the fact that most had them indicates I should pick one? Seems a strange logical twist.

 

[seeking4truth]

"Most men over time have had vastly different creation stories from one another, but the fact that most had them indicates I should pick one? Seems a strange logical twist."

Not that you should pick a story but wonder why there has always been a story - however it may be interpreted.

 

[Willamena]

Your journey might also give you greater appreciation for the true meaning of atheism!

Is that anything like the true meaning of Christmas?