Why I CANNOT Believe in The Resurrection

[Subduction Zone]

Why don't you just put them both to the mods and let them decide

We would both get in trouble and what good would that do?

 

[Subduction Zone]

My background is psychology and we studied the efficacy of 12 Step programs quite a bit. It helps some people, but has a huge failure rate. My problem with it is how it exploits the weakness of people to get them past their problems. They end up not really overcoming their problems because their executive function is bypassed for an illusion of some divine proxy, a higher power.

And your own experience is pretty common. People hit bottom, see no way out, and they become attached to a theology where the person finds value because they're told a God values them. the self is still not valuing the self. the self becomes an aren for the God they believe exists, and they function as an actor in a very tenuous illusion. This religious illusion needs to be reinforced constantly. There's no room for growth or reconsideration. It is essentially a cage the prisoner volunteers to stay in. It offers no freedom from the ideology and illusion. The fear must be incredible. How does a believer so reliant, emotionally dependent, move on past this? The Christian believer is told they can;t trust themselves enough to be independent and self-sufficient.

There has to be a better way. Those that do succeed are often harmed almost as much by the "cure" as by the drug that got them there. What gets me is that courts can order this even though there is a clear religious bias as part of it.

 

[F1fan]

Rational though is God showed up when I called and He healed me and your irrational thought is: Prove it and it try to psycho analyze when you have no idea what your talking about, like positive thinking could work, lol. Fact is I’m healed

How this belief works is that a believer decides that they needed a God's permission to be good to themself, so they suspended their own executive function to a God proxy. In essence they can function through self-value assigned from a God, but not for their own sake. They only have self-worth because they believe their God says they have worth, not because they feel they have worth themselves.

 

[We Never Know]

We would both get in trouble and what good would that do?

If calling someone a creationists or comparing someone to a creationist is against the rules the mods would have a full time job giving out warnings.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Rational though is God showed up when I called and He healed me and your irrational thought is: Prove it and it try to psycho analyze when you have no idea what your talking about, like positive thinking could work, lol. Fact is I’m healed

The fact is that you are better, for now. If you rely on an irrational belief you could fail again. If you realize that the reason that you got better is because of you and what you can do you are more apt to stay clean and sober.

And I have to walk that back a little bit. It was almost certainly not just you. There was support too. Twelve step programs do offer strong support. If they could only do so without basing it on a God it might really work.

 

[F1fan]

Its became corrupt over money, politics, favortism, sexism, etc.
As for christians, their attitude or what they think, I wouldn't know. But there are plenty here so you might ask one.

A lot of the problem is that science (just like the cost of living itself) is getting more and more expensive. As science expands there's more to research. The more technology improves the more equipment is needed. The Christian right has seen science as a challenge to their beliefs, and they have been very active to discredit science, cut funding, and sabotage the reputation of experts. This has had serious social effects, and the disrespect has probably had an impact on some scientists. The conservative right in the USA poses a lot of threat to the future, and to science. Their denial of evolution, climate change, the roles of women in society, that money spent on the sciences must have some economic benefit, etc. are causing pressure on science that pushes ethics into negative areas.

 

[F1fan]

The fact is that you are better, for now. If you rely on an irrational belief you could fail again. If you realize that the reason that you got better is because of you and what you can do you are more apt to stay clean and sober.

Right. And the pattern of thought is like: when I do well it's because of God. When I fail it's because of my weakness. This reinforces a cycle of dependency on he illusion of relating to a God.

And I have to walk that back a little bit. It was almost certainly not just you. There was support too. Twelve step programs do offer strong support. If they could only do so without basing it on a God it might really work.

This is true. I'm aware of there being secular programs. I'm not sure if they are any better. The "demons" a person has is often years or decades in the making and quick solutions aren't realistic.

I'm not opposed to the illusion of a God being used for a person is deep crisis and despair, like a life preserver used for a drowning person. I just don't like the idea of a person living a life always drowning in constant need of a life preserver.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A lot of the problem is that science (just like the cost of living itself) is getting more and more expensive. As science expands there's more to research. The more technology improves the more equipment is needed. The Christian right has seen science as a challenge to their beliefs, and they have been very active to discredit science, cut funding, and sabotage the reputation of experts. This has had serious social effects, and the disrespect has probably had an impact on some scientists. The conservative right in the USA poses a lot of threat to the future, and to science. Their denial of evolution, climate change, the roles of women in society, that money spent on the sciences must have some economic benefit, etc. are causing pressure on science that pushes ethics into negative areas.

And the Republican party used to be the party of science, though that is in their past now. Since they became the Christian right they have become more and more anti-science. Anti-equality. And anti-immigrant. When it came to the Voting Rights Act in 1965 there was more Republican support than Democratic support. Sadly it has been downhill since then. They kept me in it because they used to be at least the party of fiscal responsibility. When that evaporated there was nothing left.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The fact is that you are better, for now. If you rely on an irrational belief you could fail again. If you realize that the reason that you got better is because of you and what you can do you are more apt to stay clean and sober.

And I have to walk that back a little bit. It was almost certainly not just you. There was support too. Twelve step programs do offer strong support. If they could only do so without basing it on a God it might really work.

You talk but until you work the steps you and see you won’t understand. This is how it works:

 

[F1fan]

There has to be a better way. Those that do succeed are often harmed almost as much by the "cure" as by the drug that got them there. What gets me is that courts can order this even though there is a clear religious bias as part of it.

I think part of it is the severe lack of mental health care in the USA. We have poor healthcare as it is, but mental health has taken cuts over the last few decades. Insurance companies are covering less mental health care since it is expensive and usually takes many, many years of treatment. The alternative has been to medicate people. But this often only masks the effects of mental health problems, it offers no effective solutions to overcome the issues. Poor people suffer the worst, and tend to end up in prison. The courts see 12 Step as better than nothing. Churches often volunteer time and place for these programs, and volunteers lead the groups. I'm happy for those who can find some success, but I still see this system as a problem of not enough preventative care. The poor are typically in a crisis before they get any sort of care.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You talk but until you work the steps you and see you won’t understand. This is how it works:

Your image only shows part of the program. But it fails when one has to rely on a god for it to work. It will "work" for only some. It is almost as if it has a written fail as part of the program. You can blame the members for failing but not their god. There are probably better ways.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who did Baha'u'llah say Christ was?

When Baha'u'llah proclamed that He was the return of the spirit of Christ in His Writings, Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus Christ as the Spirit of God and the Son of God.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

Baha'u'llah also referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in the following passage:

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think part of it is the severe lack of mental health care in the USA. We have poor healthcare as it is, but mental health has taken cuts over the last few decades. Insurance companies are covering less mental health care since it is expensive and usually takes many, many years of treatment. The alternative has been to medicate people. But this often only masks the effects of mental health problems, it offers no effective solutions to overcome the issues. Poor people suffer the worst, and tend to end up in prison. The courts see 12 Step as better than nothing. Churches often volunteer time and place for these programs, and volunteers lead the groups. I'm happy for those who can find some success, but I still see this system as a problem of not enough preventative care. The poor are typically in a crisis before they get any sort of care.

Yes, don't talk to me about US healthcare. And mental care especially. Are you mentally ill? It's your fault!! Or at least that was the standard attitude. It is time to quit blaming the victim.

Healthcare is an investment in the country. Just as education is. It is time to realize that the fiscally responsible thing to do is to have government health care.

 

[F1fan]

Good and bad exists no matter of belief or non-belief in a god. Humans are the worst species on the planet when compared to others.

Just as God intended.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, don't talk to me about US healthcare. And mental care especially. Are you mentally ill? It's your fault!! Or at least that was the standard attitude.

Healthcare is an investment in the country. Just as education is. It is time to realize that the fiscally responsible thing to do is to have government health care.

One on my ex-girlfriends (and we are still friends) has bipolar disorder and she's had to fight with her insurance company to cover her monthly medication. It's a genetic defect, and people with bipolar are absolutely reliant on medication to maintain stability. She's had episodes of being off medication for a week or more because the insurance company refused coverage, and a few times times she went into a crisis. Not cheap medication, and she couldn't afford the cost without the insurance. Plus she needs to get a new prescription renewed every two months by a doctor because her medication is an amphetamine, so there's an appointment and meeting with a doctor just to confirm she still needs the medication. It's unbelievable.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Your image only shows part of the program. But it fails when one has to rely on a god for it to work. It will "work" for only some. It is almost as if it has a written fail as part of the program. You can blame the members for failing but not their god. There are probably better ways.

I gave you a little portion of How it Works and you can read more if you wanted, besides the Bible I have found the AA Big Book to be my next favorite. Go ahead and work the steps, what I found is that God does change you, you end up with a clear conscience and freedom from addiction and the root cause of your addiction is dealt with. Not many people can be that honest with themselves, God and another human being. That’s what it takes

 

[Subduction Zone]

I gave you a little portion of How it Works and you can read more if you wanted, besides the Bible I have found the AA Big Book to be my next favorite. Go ahead and work the steps, what I found is that God does change you, you end up with a clear conscience and freedom from addiction and the root cause of your addiction is dealt with. Not many people can be that honest with themselves, God and another human being. That’s what it takes

How do you know it was God and not just you and the help that you face got from others?

I can see that your past is going to make reasoning about God not a real possibility in your case. Do you think that you can leave that behind and rationally discuss why the resurrection is likely to be false?

 

[ElishaElijah]

How do you know it was God and not just you and the help that you face got from others?

I can see that your past is going to make reasoning about God not a real possibility in your case. Do you think that you can leave that behind and rationally discuss why the resurrection is likely to be false?

Resurrection is true because the Spirit of Christ lives in me, not sure what to tell you. Unless you receive salvation and get filled with the Holy Spirit you won’t understand or comprehend what I’m saying.

 

[ElishaElijah]

How this belief works is that a believer decides that they needed a God's permission to be good to themself, so they suspended their own executive function to a God proxy. In essence they can function through self-value assigned from a God, but not for their own sake. They only have self-worth because they believe their God says they have worth, not because they feel they have worth themselves.

No offense but that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a long time. If you’re a psychologist and that’s what you learned then get your money back. If someone’s higher power isn’t Jesus Christ then yes they will most likely fail.

 

[whosetosay...]

When Baha'u'llah proclamed that He was the return of the spirit of Christ in His Writings, Baha'u'llah referred to Jesus Christ as the Spirit of God and the Son of God.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

Baha'u'llah also referred to Jesus as the Son of Man in the following passage:

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Many false prophets will come claiming to be me....
King James Bible
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

We will recognize Christ when he comes..